Posted May 23, 2021 (edited) A sandbox crafting MMO cannot survive without an economy. An economy cannot be sustained without balanced supply and demand. Supply and demand cannot flourish when players are isolated from each other. Isolation is one of the primary tools used to stimulate Wurm's growth. Yet, Wurm is not growing. (In my opinion) Something is missing. What is it? Discuss. This message is sponsored by Wurmians Without Borders. Edited May 23, 2021 by Eyesgood Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 23, 2021 The economy (and Wurm) was in a much better place when the players were more "isolated", we couldn't mail large items, players actually had to travel to meet up to get tools imp'ed, or to flourishing market places with merchants full of stuff. Auction house will kill Wurm, although I am not sure if the OP want that. What is missing? More cooperation (more reason to cooperate) More reason to travel and meet up and see other places. Animal AI fixed before anything else. No more new servers. Ideally we need to merge or even close some servers. We may lose a few players, but lots of old players would prefer this, because right now new players stay away because of the large number of servers with few player numbers. Either drop PvP completely or devote some time to make it more fun. I would prefer the latter option. I may have missed something, but after all the above, do some proper advertising, and the game will attract and keep more players. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 23, 2021 its been a few similar posts lately so not sure another one is needed. In my mind there is 2 things thats ruin wurm population. 1. Splitted community, was smart to beginn with but the two clusters need to be connected. 2. there just isnt enough content to attract more people, we need a reason to leave our deed and meet other players. Wurm is a grindy game, i mean its takes the time of 5 other game just til get 1 skills up, even tho i like the slow pace and that wurm can be combined while doin other things, its not what most players looking for. I wishe a alternative and more causual way of playing. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 23, 2021 Well, I can tell you why one part of the market does not function - https://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/184223-priest-poll-alts-and-mains-take-part-in-the-great-priest-census/ Most players (at least those who have responded to the survey) have one or more priest alts. Given how much priests are designed to be used as alts (grind faith, get 90% of useful spells, grind channeling to make the other 10% useful; 2 skills and you have a master priest) that's going to be part of your problem at least. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 23, 2021 34 minutes ago, Eyesgood said: An economy cannot be sustained without balanced supply and demand. problem with this is that large majority of things you can produce in Wurm is useless so people are in business for very limited amount of professions. Why plant and pick apples, grapes, lingoberries etc when it's used in only small amounts in very specific cases most often just for the sake of roleplaying... why breed and keep sheeps, cows etc when milk is useless for anything but grinding dairy food making which again is mostly uselles, why grinding baking when one huge pizza is all you need, why grinding cloth making when its not as usefull as blacksmithing... Time is the only true restriction, even if you have all skill at 90 + you most often don't have time to make all if all is usefull, having more players would help too. But at the end of line it's really fine line beetween enjoying game and making it nightmare because of economy... 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 23, 2021 19 minutes ago, Wulfgar said: The economy (and Wurm) was in a much better place when the players were more "isolated", we couldn't mail large items, players actually had to travel to meet up to get tools imp'ed, or to flourishing market places with merchants full of stuff. Auction house will kill Wurm, although I am not sure if the OP want that. And this "traveling experience" could kill it as well, if forced. And yes, everything was greater as a new player, "back in the days" 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 23, 2021 I think economy actually hurts the game. Game silver is tied to real life money. This makes game coin a limited resource. 1. We greedily compete for this limited resource. I'd rather play a cooperative relaxing game as opposed to a cut throat competitive one. 2. Players often think of game currency value based on real world currency value. "Buy one less Star Bucks coffee next week and instead buy my enchanted shovel". "Why you complaining about 10s coins? Simply work an extra hour at work and your good for a month in game". I don't expect anything to change. The change would be too drastic. But it doesn't change my opinion, a competitive economy for limited game silver doesn't create a relaxing cooperative environment. I also agree we need more content that encourages player to leave their deeds and meet for community tasks. These tasks need to be based on cooperation, not greedy acquisition of limited items (unique creatures). I support a global auction house. This would drive prices down and make it universally know what all things are worth. 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 23, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Wulfgar said: The economy (and Wurm) was in a much better place when the players were more "isolated", we couldn't mail large items, players actually had to travel to meet up to get tools imp'ed, or to flourishing market places with merchants full of stuff. Was it really? I mean, back then we also only had one server everybody pretty much lived on, so while we couldn't mail large items and mailing was a lot more expensive, the merchants or other players which you needed to meet lived on the same server as you at all times. You could simply hit the road and meet them, or you'd go to the big central market place and you'd probably find what you were looking for. But these days? We're all over the place, marketplaces are all over the place, boat travel is as boring as it gets, PvE is split up between different clusters which cannot even interact with each other to begin with, etc, etc. If we still had the systems from back then then we'd be way way way more "isolated" now then we were back then. I doubt the old ways would work well with the current server setup, except for more experienced players whom have boats (and can stand using them frequently) and such. 1 hour ago, Wulfgar said: What is missing? More cooperation (more reason to cooperate) More reason to travel and meet up and see other places. Animal AI fixed before anything else. No more new servers. Ideally we need to merge or even close some servers. We may lose a few players, but lots of old players would prefer this, because right now new players stay away because of the large number of servers with few player numbers. Either drop PvP completely or devote some time to make it more fun. I would prefer the latter option. I may have missed something, but after all the above, do some proper advertising, and the game will attract and keep more players. I agree with some of those, though more reasons to travel would certainly require travel being made a lot more interesting first. For example, travel by boat is really not interesting at all, especially when compared to travel by boat in for example Valheim. It's the physics and weather that really does it there, combined with some sea creatures which can totally wreck your boat and outpace it. So I'd say travel should first be made a lot more interesting before more reasons for doing it are actually added. You don't want to force your players to do more stuff that just isn't all that fun at the moment, that will just burn them out faster and then you'll achieve the opposite of what you want. Agreed on no more new servers, merging you can probably forget about, that's an all out database nightmare, likely with conflicting primary keys and all kinds of other issues. As for closing servers, that would sent a completely wrong message to the remaining players, as in: "your stuff is only as permanent as the server, which are no longer permanent and can be closed to any time". Realistically we're stuck with these servers. Sure they can promise not to close any more, but that isn't believable since that's already the current state and they'd just have broken that to close some. Edited May 23, 2021 by Ecrir 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 23, 2021 1 hour ago, Wulfgar said: The economy (and Wurm) was in a much better place when the players were more "isolated", we couldn't mail large items, players actually had to travel to meet up to get tools imp'ed, or to flourishing market places with merchants full of stuff. Auction house will kill Wurm, although I am not sure if the OP want that. What is missing? More cooperation (more reason to cooperate). Not in a traditional way that real time cooperation is forced upon us. More automated systems for trade, excpecially for trading services. Wagoneer was way in right directeion, auction house would even be better. More reason to travel and meet up and see other places. Speak for yourself, when i wanna travel which once in couple of months i just pack boat and go explore, if i had to waaste time traveling to do anything in this game when i have limited time playing i would quit. Animal AI fixed before anything else. Wouldn't realy call it priority above everything else but sure can be improved No more new servers. Ideally we need to merge or even close some servers. We may lose a few players, but lots of old players would prefer this, because right now new players stay away because of the large number of servers with few player numbers. Either drop PvP completely or devote some time to make it more fun. I would prefer the latter option. Agree on no more new servers except sesonal ones like Jackal, as for closing servers, server where i've put my roots and invested years, once again, no thanks I may have missed something, but after all the above, do some proper advertising, and the game will attract and keep more players. And what is propper advertising? Facebook and google adds? For me that's just waste of money. Steam launch was good free advertise, how long did that last huh, NFI deed keep dropping to the point they are spamming niarja, and god knows how fast and how low it can get 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 23, 2021 Currently the new Islands still have an economy in which new players can contribute and earn premium without a ton of effort. Bulk is still valuable. Nothing is grossly oversupplied. My impression of the old islands economy was... trashed. Item values are significantly less. This is good for getting high ql decent items for next to nothing. However, It is rough for a new person to "earn" their way to premium or contribute. Personally, if the servers were combined, I'd anticipate prices trending towards the SFI lower values. That would probably make me not want to play. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 23, 2021 Quote NFI deed keep dropping to the point they are spamming niarja, and god knows how fast and how low it can get According to Niarja, there are 8 more deeds disbanded than created on NFI PvE in a week (May 16 to now, 35 vs 28). That is not a worrysome figure. Still rather too many deeds on NFI PvE. I agree to no more permanent servers as well as to not closing existing ones. As to the economy, I am rather opposed to auction houses. Also, I am opposed to alt suppression attempts. Let everyone play as s/he likes, with priest, fighter, whatever alts. As to Ads, I don't know. Would be looking for ways to make Wurm better known, even if one has to pay bribes to gaming journals for mentioning. Still the churn rate problem remains, but attempting morphing Wurm into a tripe A game would not help, on contrary, it would kill it. But there are still new players coming, you see it on Haven, see them in CA Help. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 23, 2021 1 hour ago, Reverent said: Currently the new Islands still have an economy in which new players can contribute and earn premium without a ton of effort. Bulk is still valuable. Nothing is grossly oversupplied. Lol. A new player, even if reaching levels in the 50s in any crafting, have no chance to "contribute and earn premium without a ton of effort." Bulk may be valuable, but first they have to pay a ton for tools and enchants. And bulk means slaving. Poor guys, no matter whether NFI or SFI, to earn their sub that way. On SFI, slaving is available as well, and better tools ways cheaper. There still is a "healthy economy" for old server emigrees dominating the market as they knew how to skill up fast. I am no moralist, if it suits someone, have fun. 1 hour ago, Reverent said: My impression of the old islands economy was... trashed. Item values are significantly less. Yes. So hard to exploit someone. These darn impalongs, and high level players giving out stuff for free. Sad. 1 hour ago, Reverent said: This is good for getting high ql decent items for next to nothing. However, It is rough for a new person to "earn" their way to premium or contribute. Sorry, but that is pure hypocrisy. On NFI, a "new person" had to buy silvers as crazy before having a chance to settle down, especially when unexperienced with the whole Wurm thing, and were fully in the hands of SFI carpetbaggers. I had a smooth and peaceful start end of '17 and had not to care for "the market" unless I chose so. 1 hour ago, Reverent said: Personally, if the servers were combined, I'd anticipate prices trending towards the SFI lower values. That would probably make me not want to play. I figure. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 23, 2021 Fancy your personal attacks. "Slaving" where mortar sells reasonably fast for 4 silver per thousand is far easier. Just an option for those who cannot, or choose not to spend real life funds. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 23, 2021 (edited) This is not personal, but about spreading disinformation, and interested disinformation. I do not envy that you make good profits on NFI, and do not criticize that. But I dislike when you pretend that it is to the best of beginning players because that is a plain and vicious lie. Thousand mortar means digging 600 clay and 60 sand (taking in account failures and material loss), transporting them somewhere to create. As a beginner, timers for all will be terrible, starter tools gone soon. Good chance to pay silvers for new tools, for bsb and crates. Yes, that is slaving. And, "to get personal" again, you are not sharing that life, but praising the happy life of your slaves. Umpf. Even giving that mortar will sell for 1s on SFI, a newcomer willing and needing such slaving will find someone to give her/him a 70ql woa shovel (if not s/he will get it at next impalong but unlikely to have to wait that long). The material will be gathered 4 times faster that way. Not to speak about that it took nearly half a year before NFIers could gather rare coins. I made 11s in 40 days as an f2p noob, mostly by rare coins, to some extent from selling stuff, corpses and whatever, to the settlement token. During my first 3 years in Wurm I made well 4g by foraging, botanizing, selling some viable rares, and casual other trade, payed all my upkeep, and purchased a lmc. Never needed to create bulk for sale. But I made about 1500 concrete to fix the floors in my tunnels (starting miners botch floors terribly lol), and created and used well 2k support beams for my own mining projects in my first year. Even under "depressed SFI market" that would have sufficed for years of premium. I preferred my fun and feeling of achievement. Since then I certainly created 5k beams (SFI average price 4s/100) for several mining and canal projects, did not count mortar, concrete etc. much less lamps and buoys. I never needed to slave. I pay my sub in euro. I am aware that people from eastern and southeastern europe are worse off, so are many outside the euro and dollar zone eg in africa and latin america, and 5.6€/mth for a full year sub may hurt, here it is one hop to the doner snack down in the road, a full year sub no more that a single restaurant or theatre visit with a friend (once the authorities allow that again). I feel the company deserves that money for the service rendered. Edited May 23, 2021 by Ekcin 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 23, 2021 "My slaves" 1 Silver vs 4 silver. A 75 ql, 70 WOA shovel is under a silver. I'm not going to wax on my opinion. Thanks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 23, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Reverent said: "My slaves"1 Silver vs 4 silver. A 75 ql, 70 WOA shovel is under a silver. I'm not going to wax on my opinion. Thanks. You miss the point. As said, I never needed to slave. In my opinion, it is an extremely dangerous path when people have to work ingame for their premium, and their upkeep. It destroys the spirit of the game. I do not badmouth trade. We have a lot of trade relations down here. I bought priest services to fix my sins in mining, sent a medi rug to a master tailor, bought my first gathering rune, sold some ships, all that. Basically it was for fun, and was fun. Being forced to do repetitive labour to get some funds is no fun. I doubt you did it yourself, at least not after you got hold on some market domination. Just liking when others are doing it. Edited May 23, 2021 by Ekcin 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 23, 2021 (edited) Actual game development and developers (who are non volunteers) Oh and players who play your game (so not alts). Edited May 23, 2021 by atazs Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 23, 2021 A dozen impalongs a year probably doesn't help the imping market. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
