Valrei International: Feeding time!

[DemonaNightshade 2,087]

The majority category of traits on an animal will make that category of traits highly likely to pass on to offspring. Speed trait parents will most often give birth to speed trait babies, draft trait parents will most often give birth to draft trait babies. Once you've reached optimal speed/draft traits, there are other beneficial traits (living longer, becoming passive and taming easier for hell horses, not packing tiles as often, among a few others that have not been announced yet) that can be passed on on top of that so breeding at higher levels can bring even better offspring. Quite a few of these beneficial traits have been added, as well as the special rare traits so you'd be more likely to get these than before where there were only so many extra traits that could be beneficial on top of the speed traits which kept players sitting at 50 AH as long as possible.

[DemonaNightshade 2,087]

6 minutes ago, CistaCista said:

Then the question that breeders would like answered is: how many traits will there be in a fast speed category? How high AH skill is needed to collect those traits in one horse?

Because we were hearing that the effect of negative points was it was helpful for breeders that maybe did not have the astronomically high AH skill. So we can't but expect that a higher AH skill is now needed to produce the fastest horses.

 

I don't have precise details for those questions yet. I don't know how many points each trait is worth or at what level you can see them, and it's likely being adjusted anyway even if I had known with the change in negative point traits.

[Zuelatak 235]

23 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

Actually, genesis removes the trait at the moment (it's how we heal horses with the illness trait).  If it gets changed to what you say above, it would be a nerf to genesis.

Yes that was what I was suggesting. And adding a way for breeders to handle it themselves. IDK if it'd be considered a nerf cause it'd be functioning in a completely different manner.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Zuelatak

[Zuelatak 235]

7 hours ago, DemonaNightshade said:

Also, there will no longer be negative point traits.

Is that including current negative traits? What purpose will Genesis serve with no negative traits?

[DemonaNightshade 2,087]

1 minute ago, Zuelatak said:

Is that including current negative traits? What purpose will Genesis serve with no negative traits?

 

There will be no traits that cost negative points. Not no negative traits in general.

[Zuelatak 235]

1 minute ago, DemonaNightshade said:

There will be no traits that cost negative points. Not no negative traits in general.

Ah cheers. How come the change? Was super excited for the uniqueness that a tradeoff system like that would create.

[DemonaNightshade 2,087]

Because people felt that it made priests and inbreeding required.

[Zuelatak 235]

5 minutes ago, DemonaNightshade said:

Because people felt that it made priests and inbreeding required.

Fair I suppose. Those were concerns of mine as well. However, the current system also requires priests. Any chance we could work together to find a better solution to the inbreeding problem without removing the system? If you didn't see my post on it I feel like with a rework of Genesis both problems can be resolved.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Zuelatak

[Arronicus 642]

38 minutes ago, kochinac said:

Beside calming several unrealistic snowflakes I'm not sure removing negative points for traits actually does something or it even makes things worse. It was not actually that bad idea for the system and it's grounded somewhat in reality. 

Insulting people by calling them unrealistic snowflakes really isn't helpful to the discussion, particularly when people are genuinely concerned with implications of changes, and are trying to voice their concerns before changes become something more finalized, and less prone to iteration. 

That said, removing negative point values from negative traits (or at least until some more nuanced change can be made in the future, though this is NOT a hint at anything) prevents Fo priests (and those with free access to them) from having a far, far bigger breeding advantage than they currently possess. I do not genuinely believe that negative point values on negative traits was meant to encourage players to breed up as many negative traits as possible, and then use those animals to stack all the best speed, draft, and combat traits onto single animals, knowing that the negative traits can all just be dispelled off later. The point system is intended (afaik) to cap traits at a reasonable number, not present means to dramatically bypass that cap, by way of genesis, in addition to holy crop inadvertently ruining prime breeding stock when it gets cast, if people have said breeding stock in the influence of Fo.

[SweetSerenade 181]

2 minutes ago, Arronicus said:

Insulting people by calling them unrealistic snowflakes really isn't helpful to the discussion, particularly when people are genuinely concerned with implications of changes, and are trying to voice their concerns before changes become something more finalized, and less prone to iteration. 

That said, removing negative point values from negative traits (or at least until some more nuanced change can be made in the future, though this is NOT a hint at anything) prevents Fo priests (and those with free access to them) from having a far, far bigger breeding advantage than they currently possess. I do not genuinely believe that negative point values on negative traits was meant to encourage players to breed up as many negative traits as possible, and then use those animals to stack all the best speed, draft, and combat traits onto single animals, knowing that the negative traits can all just be dispelled off later. The point system is intended (afaik) to cap traits at a reasonable number, not present means to dramatically bypass that cap, by way of genesis, in addition to holy crop inadvertently ruining prime breeding stock when it gets cast, if people have said breeding stock in the influence of Fo.

Why can't we find a way to rework genesis, I would love to have a horse with many different negative talents so the horse felt more like a secondary character that bites me, breaks leash etc once in a while, it provides amusing stories and the world to feel much more realistic.

 

In exchange for the realism I am rewarded with the ability to have a few more traits so my best friend can be with me throughout even more, if not all of my Wurm life and adventures as he is able to perform every role... Negative traits literally turn an expendable horse into a best friend and I absolutely love the idea of that change.

[DemonaNightshade 2,087]

8 minutes ago, Zuelatak said:

Fair I suppose. Those were concerns of mine as well. However, the current system also requires priests. Any chance we could work together to find a better solution to the inbreeding problem without removing the system?

 

I'm not the one who decides anything about it. I'm just the messenger relaying the information I am given. But, it has definitely been decided to get rid of the negative points traits after all of this.

[Arronicus 642]

4 minutes ago, Zuelatak said:

Fair I suppose. Those were concerns of mine as well. However, the current system also requires priests. Any chance we could work together to find a better solution to the inbreeding problem without removing the system?

 

My personal wish in this regard is to get negative point values back on negative traits, but to rework genesis so that one cannot clear off all the negative traits. Just some ideas are: Genesis no longer removes negative traits but: (one of the following)
1)  halves the effect of negative traits 
2)  reduces the number of negative traits a creature will be born with by a small number (1-2?), castable once per pregnancy
3) an enchant on the creature that negates the impact of negative traits it has on the selection process during breeding (permanent enchant on the creature. If a creature had malformed hindlegs, any offspring from that creature would have no increased chance of receiving that trait, but could still receive it nromally)
4) reduces the age of a creature to a minimum value of say, old?
5) hostile creatures will not target the creature, unless specifically attacked by it, temporary buff spell akin to willowspine, castable only on creatures, monsters, animals, but not players

Anything like this would allow players to get better animals by accepting some negative traits, without specifically encouraging mass inbreeding.  

[Zuelatak 235]

1 minute ago, DemonaNightshade said:

I'm not the one who decides anything about it. I'm just the messenger relaying the information I am given. But, it has definitely been decided to get rid of the negative points traits after all of this.

But the messenger can go both ways. Can we (Devs and Players) work together to find a better solution? 

 

Some rough ideas:

• Inbreeding causes the point cap to be reduced for each generation of inbreeding. 
• Inbreeding could cause the animal to have a incurable illness that does something really bad like kill them
• Genesis gets renamed and becomes 1 or more of the following
  • Choose a trait and reroll it once per animal
  • Allow for one additional trait in the pool up to the maximum possible
  • Speed up the rate of birth

 

4 minutes ago, Arronicus said:

My personal wish in this regard is to get negative point values back on negative traits, but to rework genesis so that one cannot clear off all the negative traits. Just some ideas are: Genesis no longer removes negative traits but: (one of the following)
1)  halves the effect of negative traits 
2)  reduces the number of negative traits a creature will be born with by a small number (1-2?), castable once per pregnancy
3) an enchant on the creature that negates the impact of negative traits it has on the selection process during breeding (permanent enchant on the creature. If a creature had malformed hindlegs, any offspring from that creature would have no increased chance of receiving that trait, but could still receive it nromally)
4) reduces the age of a creature to a minimum value of say, old?
5) hostile creatures will not target the creature, unless specifically attacked by it, temporary buff spell akin to willowspine, castable only on creatures, monsters, animals, but not players

Anything like this would allow players to get better animals by accepting some negative traits, without specifically encouraging mass inbreeding.

This is a great start to ideas. Keep em coming and maybe the Devs will hear us!

[Zuelatak 235]

Honestly just making inbreeding provide a negative trait that reduces the trait total based on the number of generations inbred would create the same system we have now. Just with more traits and breeders no longer needing to stay at 50AH for optimal chances at good traits and not the bad ones. So could we please just talk about that and potentially find a middle ground for that? We could change Genesis in the future if people think we should. 

 

Edit: Forgot how this would effect Holy Crop and PvP. Genesis would still need a change, so nevermind. Both concerns need to be fixed or not created at all.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Zuelatak

[Etherdrifter 2,518]

34 minutes ago, DemonaNightshade said:

Because people felt that it made priests and inbreeding required.

 

Oh no!  You might need the services of a fo priest to get god-tier animals!  That would be terrible; best nerf that idea.

 

Kneejerk change to satisfy the mob without much forethought.  Next incoming change - genesis runes.

[SweetSerenade 181]

7 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

 

Oh no!  You might need the services of a fo priest to get god-tier animals!  That would be terrible; best nerf that idea.

 

Kneejerk change to satisfy the mob without much forethought.  Next incoming change - genesis runes.

If alts weren't so rampart this would be amazing, would love to go find that 1/50 player Fo priest to cast that legendary spell known as genesis, instead everybody just has their own priest and the exploration is gone.

[Zuelatak 235]

32 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

Oh no!  You might need the services of a fo priest to get god-tier animals!  That would be terrible; best nerf that idea.

I don't think you should ever NEED a priest for anything. They should be assistances that speed up the process or provide bonuses to it, but never NEEDED. I do feel priests need some buffs to feel more like a full character, but this isn't one those for me. 

 

Edit: This mindset could well be flawed though due to priests needing non-priests. I'm probably just upset by alts.

 

Edit2: Actually my main gripe is that without Genesis, breeders would stay at 50AH for optimal breeding because higher AH was just providing more chances at negative traits. New system, original or not, will nerf Genesis because breeders can still be rewarded for each point of AH. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Zuelatak

[kochinac 1,395]

You wouldn't need priest for breeding in this scenario too. Wanna breed without genesis, simple just kill off the sick ones and breed the healthy ones until you get what you need.
My main issue not with this update but with Wurm in general is that you are forced to take whole priest thing just to have one thing you want, genesis because you want to breed animals more efficently, and god forbid you do something silly like cut a tree or imp a weapon in process because priest system is so dumb. Why cant you spend your time grinding genesis, and grinding AH and grind something else like carpentry without having alts. You wanna heal, sure, go grind healing spells, wanna make weapons and cast them, go grind WS and LT, MS or whatever spell you want on it (just a rough concept that needs tuning, don't take it literary). Seriously what if I just want to breed animals in efficient way using genesis and don't want to cast LT heals, restrict myself to imping or whatever, but do something else on same character.

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by kochinac

[Ogare 74]

It's troublesome that no one sees how all these new traits are just going to encourage folks to amass even more animals. Creatures aren't equally available to players like all other things in Wurm.

 

This is why I had hopped Wurm would let us force spawn mating pairs of no-trait animals on our deeds. I'd set it up so deed ration has to be very good. And the player would need to use up or sacrifice a bunch of animal food resources to spawn them.

[Ekcin 2,417]

2 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

Oh no!  You might need the services of a fo priest to get god-tier animals!  That would be terrible; best nerf that idea.

Kneejerk change to satisfy the mob without much forethought.  Next incoming change - genesis runes.

I consider this comment, though I hold some understanding for the bitterness, widely inappropriate and injust.

 

I appreciate a lot that the idea of breeding bad traits has been abolished, though it was not a bad idea in itself, but the consequences were not fully thought through. The negative trait point thing would not just have empowered Fo priests, which it would have done to some extent, but severely imbalanced the priest balance, game- and roleplay. It would have made inevitable to create a genesis equivalent for Libila at least in PvP, or for BL in general (like dark messenger vs. courier, e.g. "dark strength" vs. genesis). Effectively, such would not strengthen, but water down priest abilities and significance.

 

That said, I do not find the original idea that bad, as inbreeding, together with acceptance of weaknesses, is part of RL animal husbandry. As to that being "unethical", it  is no more than killing foals, calves and lambs for bad traits before. But such would have needed very thorough testing and evaluation, for PvP in particular, best in a test environment for a longer period of time.

 

The solution to retract it now is arguably the best in the given situation. Players should also be aware that the new system (hopefully) enables breeders with max AH to achieve the best breeding results. This will put a heavy load on recent breeders with their skill wilfully held below 60 but is a good thing. I do not expect the recent "5 speed" to be optimal, on contrary. I just hope that they compare to maximally optimized creatures bit alike a ql 70-75 weapon to a 90-95+ weapon where the further already are fairly close to "max weapons". And I hope very much that there will be a chance to breed warm blood battle steeds strong enough to kill every wolf, mountain lion, spider, and bear if tame or the predator hungry, even more deadly with horse shoes (there could be special combat horse shoes to craft with damage bonus and speed penalty in addition).

[Tukodama 316]

Where do I find how many animals I can have on my deed?  Also, do they have to be all my animals or can they be allies or neighbors animals?

[Ecrir 887]

9 minutes ago, Tukodama said:

Where do I find how many animals I can have on my deed?  Also, do they have to be all my animals or can they be allies or neighbors animals?

 

Settlement => Info. It mentions a tile per creature ratio just below the faith bonuses, with optimal being 15 or more (so 15 or more tiles per animal). As far as I know it counts all animals on your deed no matter who owns them, but don't quote me on that.

That page also shows your deed size at the top, so from that you can calculate how many animals are on your deed and how many you have room for in total.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Ecrir

[LionIX 354]

8 minutes ago, Tukodama said:

Where do I find how many animals I can have on my deed?  Also, do they have to be all my animals or can they be allies or neighbors animals?

https://warlander.github.io/Wurm-Toolbox/#deed-calc
 

 

[Delone 215]

If we are now moving on to wish lists......

 

I do see more options for customised creatures and interest in AH being generated here, but, until we see the full list of traits, begin to suspect that the new system still will not really push for people to max AH as much as possible. I suspect 5 speed, or 5 draught trait animals will not require 90 AH, and the benefits of other traits may not be enough to push people into going higher than 60-70.

 

If I were to be able to wish for a change it would be that instead of just receiving "points" at say, 80AH, you could give the breeder an ability to do with helping control the ever more variable pool of traits so that they don't become a burden instead of a reward - which is the problem I see inherent in the system, and encourages people staying at 50 AH now.

 

What comes to mind would be that the  skilled animal breeder was given an ability where they were able to either select for a given trait, or be able to remove an existing trait and have it replaced by the game generated methods. I wouldn't want this to be available on every breeeding attempt, but to have it on a long cooldown, and when I say a long cooldown, I don't mean in hours, I mean maybe once a day or every two. The pool of traits available to be removed would not include negative traits, we have Fo priests and a rite that can be used for that (so this wouldn't impact them), and the choice of traits to select for would not include rare traits, or produce a horse that has more points than the breeder has available.

 

One of the problems faced at the current break points on traits was how hard it was to get a specific line of traits going by needing to generate matched parents with a random trait addition system. It looks like this may be handled at least partially by traits breeding towards existing dominant trait pools, but once we have a 5 trait animal and then want to breed for specific things we are back at the mercy of even more traits in the pool and the RNG. The above would give us a period where we still had to deal with this, but with the carrot on the stick being we are able to look forward to having some control over the outcome due to hard work.

 

Maybe at  90AH, the cooldown could be halved, or another ability given, etc.

 

Could I remove keen senses from a horse that appeared on a breeding line I was working on for multiple weeks as a reward for making 80AH, and being able to do it twice as often at 90AH, my grooming brush would be just about smoking from overwork 😛

 

The majority of horses would be kept at reasonable levels, and a select few "special" animals would be available, either as your key breeding stock, a personal  use animal, or to offer up as an occasional prestige sale. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Delone
Typos, clarification

[Samool 2,004]

6 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

 

Oh no!  You might need the services of a fo priest to get god-tier animals!  That would be terrible; best nerf that idea.

 

Kneejerk change to satisfy the mob without much forethought.  Next incoming change - genesis runes.

 

It was a bad idea in the first place, not a kneejerk change. We don't want the "meta" to be keeping exclusively negative traited animals and having to genesis all the offspring - we were more thinking about the individual horses back when we thought it would be a good idea, rather than taking both offspring and genesis into account - as Ekcin mentioned, we didn't fully think through how it would end up on live servers after everything is settled, so the feedback here helps.

 

Fo priests are still ahead of other breeders by a lot with just how it works now, especially after the update that there will be more breeding needed to be done in general to keep those more specialized animals. And no, Genesis runes won't be a thing.