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Capi

Uniques - A New Approach

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On 4/10/2021 at 5:06 PM, Capi said:

Most of the loot is kept to those who find/pen it. 


I frankly don't have a problem with this. None of the unique rewards are neccessary to enjoy the game. If you want the "cherry on top", you're going to have to fight for it. If a new system was to be introduced, it needs to reward appropriately according to skill and effort.

If you want to dedicate time in this game to track down, pen and kill unique monsters - good for you. If everyone can't have drakehide or scale, it doesn't really matter: The strongest thing you really run into on Freedom is a champion troll. If we were to make some changes for uniques that were to include PvP servers, I'd rather have things like scale and acid imbued weapons removed entirely.

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the very first post in here was someone saying that making points like rifts is a bad idea. devily's comment was 5th in the thread. if you don't close the activity page you can see the first few lines of comments even after they're deleted. whatever you say, have fun with your thread

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2 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

the very first post in here was someone saying that making points like rifts is a bad idea. devily's comment was 5th in the thread. if you don't close the activity page you can see the first few lines of comments even after they're deleted. whatever you say, have fun with your thread

thanks

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8 hours ago, Capi said:

But uh, isn't it like that. The amount you get is usually abysmal because there are so many people? Having a new system would increase the amount you get by contributing. The more contribute, the more loot spawns.

That's an accurate assessment if you're trying to build a drake set entirely through showing up to public slayings which, frankly, is asinine. The problem (aside from my distaste for weird point systems in general) is that "contributing" to public unique fights is essentially meaningless. Other people have pointed this out, but when you have 100+ people hitting the dragon it's effectively already dead. If your intention is to make them super laggy loot pinatas, I guess you're on the right track here. 

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The terrible bit here is the time detail.. you're using the timing for rifts as "working well mechanic", which is not a liked mechanic by anyone(?)..

Most rifts happen at bad timings, and you want to copy that to unique events and 'improve' a bad design with already proven faulty mechanic.

🤔

 

 

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ALSO.. the game at pvE at least is extremely, read again E X T R E M E L Y  CASUAL, wurm is not competitive game.. you can play it with half open eye, and most people like that element.

Keep competitiveness to pvp for moonmetals/hotas/robbing/etc..

 

How is random event happening once a month randomly in 1 of 4 weekends helping if it's at 1-7-10AM, I sleep to 11am-2pm normally on a saturday.. it's the 1 day you get to chill after the week or bad Friday decisions.

 

Traveling in wurm TAKES TIME and isn't entirely fun, this will eventually lead to priest summons on sight and priests on shore or boat waiting to pull you back to save time, again some meta gaming, rather than having a proper raid event.

 

Warmaster is a moaning weirdo, just replace it with a dragon, improve rift spawn times and polish the elements of the event which people have complained about for year(s).

 

There's plenty of feedback for dragons and rifts, and it's not like they are heard, summed up or implemented.

 

Have an event for everyone.. leave a dragon for the hunters.. nobody will care if they get something, if everybody gets half of what they get already, the hunting will still be cool thing to do but not as profitable when other can get the same.(totally wrong.. you can see the price of rift moonmetal lumps, did rifts change the price of moonmetals - NO)

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2 hours ago, John said:

If you want to dedicate time in this game to track down, pen and kill unique monsters - good for you. If everyone can't have drakehide or scale, it doesn't really matter

 

That's my position as well. I don't see a need to change anything about the current mechanic finding/penning and slaying uniques.

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43 minutes ago, Eobersig said:

I don't see a need to change anything about the current mechanic finding/penning and slaying uniques.

 

I mostly agree. Uniques are endgame content; if you want them you should invest your time and effort to actively search, hunt and fight. The current system may not be perfect, but it implements that approach pretty well. (Maybe just make the spawn times more random and less predictable.) 

 

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Why do people go to these events?  There are 2 types - the private ones (which I think it is obvious why people go) and the public ones.

 

Private, they are going for 2 reason

a) hang out with friends (probably the more important one);

and b) get loot (but, they all probably have high end gear, so this is either to get cash or to trick out their alts).

Don't discount either of these.  Both are very valid.  On top of it, these are people that have played the game a long time, and who deserve what they have earned.

 

Public, you can basically divide the players into categories based more on time & skills in game:

 

Older players - those who do the private slaying and those who don't

a) History, like todays slaying of Charcoal.

b) Something to do that's different, party atmosphere

c) Showing off (skills, outfits, etc) 

d) Not sure how much the loot counts, probably varies a lot on the individual basis; for some it's nice for others they care little (and, there might be 1-2 who just want to see less go around, but I doubt its many and that it would be a strong feeling even if there).  Also always a chance to win a loot roll on a book.

 

Mid-players (I put myself, barely, into this category)

a) Looking towards end game items, such as drake armor

b) Something to do that's different, and party atmosphere

c) Exploring - takes us to new places.

d) also a chance to win a loot roll.

 

Beginning players

I would have the list the same as the mid-game, but move down the end game gear to the D slot instead of the A slot.

 

Now, this is all conjecture on my part.  I don't like categorizing folks this way, as really everybody has different ideas and goals, but I expect if someone were to poll on this topic these might be the answers you get.  

I don't like the current system, but until you understand the goals of the persons involved, you likely will never come up with any solutions that work.

 

 

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Yay more Unique drama .. the current and previous attempts are lazy half assed cluster f%%cks, which stir nothing but ill feeling in the community .. stuff it.

 

Make the Uniques impossible to interact with and unable in turn to damage anything,  and let em roam about the world unimpeded. 

its time for the Devs to concede this is just another area they cant seem to get a half way decent solution on.

Edited by Scottfree2

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5 hours ago, Spacy said:

Why do people go to these events?  There are 2 types - the private ones (which I think it is obvious why people go) and the public ones.

 

Private, they are going for 2 reason

a) hang out with friends (probably the more important one);

and b) get loot ..

Agreed, but in addition:

  • Exploring and re-exploring regions, often ones untouched for years.
  • Having interesting real fights. Mind that normal PvE fight is more killing than fighting for everyone above 90FS. A drake requires some good figthers (maybe a few can solo them, but though), a dragon even more.

 

5 hours ago, Spacy said:

 

Public, you can basically divide the players into categories based more on time & skills in game:

Older players - those who do the private slaying and those who don't

..

Mid-players (I put myself, barely, into this category)

..

Beginning players

..

All agreed. The party atmosphere and showing off/watching outfits and yellow potion effects are a motivation not to be underestimated, for younger as well as veteran players. Much like impalongs, it is an opportunity of gathering, learning, and meeting new people. And sure, there is a chance to get a set of armour if one strives to get it. And as to hanging out with friends, sailing to events with friends and allies is frequently as much fun as the event proper. So this applies not only to private slayings.

 

5 hours ago, Spacy said:

Now, this is all conjecture on my part.  I don't like categorizing folks this way, as really everybody has different ideas and goals, but I expect if someone were to poll on this topic these might be the answers you get.  

I don't like the current system, but until you understand the goals of the persons involved, you likely will never come up with any solutions that work.

 

Thanks, Spacy. Great points. I understand those who do not like the current system, but I fail to see a single proposal which does not worsen the situation, and remove much of the fun and thrill from those events.

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14 hours ago, Capi said:

thanks

if we're deleting posts because they don't pertain to a singular idea presented, which isn't even original to start with, it seems prudent to at least put it in the right place, no?

 

who am I kidding, all my suggestion threads are going in town hall now and nobody can stop me

Edited by Madnath
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11 hours ago, Spacy said:

Why do people go to these events?  There are 2 types - the private ones (which I think it is obvious why people go) and the public ones.

 

Private, they are going for 2 reason

a) hang out with friends (probably the more important one);

and b) get loot (but, they all probably have high end gear, so this is either to get cash or to trick out their alts).

Don't discount either of these.  Both are very valid.  On top of it, these are people that have played the game a long time, and who deserve what they have earned.

 

Public, you can basically divide the players into categories based more on time & skills in game:

 

Older players - those who do the private slaying and those who don't

a) History, like todays slaying of Charcoal.

b) Something to do that's different, party atmosphere

c) Showing off (skills, outfits, etc) 

d) Not sure how much the loot counts, probably varies a lot on the individual basis; for some it's nice for others they care little (and, there might be 1-2 who just want to see less go around, but I doubt its many and that it would be a strong feeling even if there).  Also always a chance to win a loot roll on a book.

 

Mid-players (I put myself, barely, into this category)

a) Looking towards end game items, such as drake armor

b) Something to do that's different, and party atmosphere

c) Exploring - takes us to new places.

d) also a chance to win a loot roll.

 

Beginning players

I would have the list the same as the mid-game, but move down the end game gear to the D slot instead of the A slot.

 

Now, this is all conjecture on my part.  I don't like categorizing folks this way, as really everybody has different ideas and goals, but I expect if someone were to poll on this topic these might be the answers you get.  

I don't like the current system, but until you understand the goals of the persons involved, you likely will never come up with any solutions that work.

 

 

hilarious, today I learned.. 

"- so private slayings are - friendly groups playing together

   - public slayings are clown shows, where people meet together to show yellow-potion effects and flex skills

   - and somehow there's a 3rd groups eating dirt and praising the sun"

couldn't disagree more... rather not explain why.. I'd have to name the groups and explain their motives

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13 hours ago, Yaga said:

 

I mostly agree. Uniques are endgame content; if you want them you should invest your time and effort to actively search, hunt and fight. The current system may not be perfect, but it implements that approach pretty well. (Maybe just make the spawn times more random and less predictable.) 

 

See this is good. Im fine with this but something more handout like is kinda eh

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Good points from previous posts that I can support:

 

alt (zerg) armies to mass up the unique drops just by sitting in local range needs addressing. Bringing 10 alts in local range should not be rewarded.

Hard to fix, sure. If we make it hit-for-reward, they just equip some armor and run up for a hit. If we make it damage based rewards, then new players will still be unhappy.

But maybe just adding the hit-for-reward is one first step in right direction anyway. Add some more AoE damage from the uniques, increase risk for low levels. Sure, new players suffer too, but here we get to the next good point:

 

uniques should remain high end goals. A new player can attend the slaying, they can get rewards, but there needs to be a risk for the value. Increased AoE damage, frequent target swapping. It's a dragon, you should be afraid to get close to it. That's why I lean towards damage based rewards; or better yet, time based rewards for staying in "contact" with the unique. You can't imp a hammer to 90ql with 20 skill, why should you get same reward from unique as a 90FS fighter?

 

scheduling uniques, adding points, aka making them similar to rift system - just don't. Takes the "unique" out of everything if you can plan 2 months ahead.

 

unique spawns and behaviour should be more random. Have them roam around the whole server, maybe a slight interest towards nearest spawn town. Being able to predict the next spawn time and "hotspot" areas is not unique.

 

Also, if any random user creates such a thread in Town Hall, it'd get moved to suggestions ;)

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The unique mechanics are something we're actively looking at.  As is obvious from the various posts here, there's no easy solution, and we're still considering the various possibilities.  As this is less of a suggestion and more a discussion around an upcoming change, it's reasonable to remain in Town Hall.

 

This work doesn't have a fixed schedule as yet, as given we don't know exactly what we're going to do, we don't know how much work it'll be, or how many other mechanics it'll affect.

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14 minutes ago, Pandalet said:

The unique mechanics are something we're actively looking at.  As is obvious from the various posts here, there's no easy solution, and we're still considering the various possibilities.  As this is less of a suggestion and more a discussion around an upcoming change, it's reasonable to remain in Town Hall.

 

This work doesn't have a fixed schedule as yet, as given we don't know exactly what we're going to do, we don't know how much work it'll be, or how many other mechanics it'll affect.


this is gonna sound weird but i very much appreciate telling us this, even if it's "we want to do something about this but we can't say when as we don't know what we'll be doing or how much effort is involved in it"- knowing where the devs are currently on working through some sort of content gives a sense of clarity and all, so thank you for this

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1. So.. how about start with 1 hour before/after or during peak hours on the weekend?

2. Should this be close to a monthly event, bi-weekly?

3. Does it need 2nd set of hour(s) for the other people around the globe which can not participate in the peak online hours(1*)?

 

Should it just start, or be like a rift with short time notice to travel to a location announced on the map or not?

Should players work on a craftable/enchantable mechanic to make the unique spawn, dragons could be lured with something craftable, and livestock, raw meat, like a bait spot, or a ritual? Humanoids could be lured with sort of loudness or having npc construction being raided by players with catapults, destroying the structure spawns the unique..

 

Plenty of ways to lure few people together and get them to work on something to spawn a pinata and enjoy their time.

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anything that keeps nerds from monopolizing content on pve servers is positive change

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16 minutes ago, Tryfaen said:

anything that keeps nerds from monopolizing content on pve servers is positive change

Ridiculous. Did you ever care to watch Niarja? If uniques were "monopolized" there ought be 98 unique kills every month on South Freedom (excl Chaos) only, 16 of them drakes/dragons. Same goes for the claims of predictability. If it is so easy to predict dragon spawns, why not more slayings, why are unique hunters underway so long? 

 

And btw., the alt "zerg" armies of 10+ alts per player, why have I never seen them in three years, attending nearly every public slaying? Yes, not few players bring 2 or sometimes 3 alts, but they certainly did not sub them for that purpose. And I fail to see so much and terrible evil in that. Average slayer to non slayer ration in public events is around 1 to 1, at worst 1 to 1.2, and not all not slaying are alts. 

 

Devs beware "fixing"/breaking the unbroken please. We had "balancings" to the worse more than once.

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2 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

Ridiculous. Did you ever care to watch Niarja? If uniques were "monopolized" there ought be 98 unique kills every month on South Freedom (excl Chaos) only, 16 of them drakes/dragons. Same goes for the claims of predictability. If it is so easy to predict dragon spawns, why not more slayings, why are unique hunters underway so long? 

 

And btw., the alt "zerg" armies of 10+ alts per player, why have I never seen them in three years, attending nearly every public slaying? Yes, not few players bring 2 or sometimes 3 alts, but they certainly did not sub them for that purpose. And I fail to see so much and terrible evil in that. Average slayer to non slayer ration in public events is around 1 to 1, at worst 1 to 1.2, and not all not slaying are alts. 

 

Devs beware "fixing"/breaking the unbroken please. We had "balancings" to the worse more than once.

Okay, I still need an answer. How are you coming up with 98 uniques per month. Isn't it only one per couple weeks? I do not get your math

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14 minutes ago, Capi said:

Okay, I still need an answer. How are you coming up with 98 uniques per month. Isn't it only one per couple weeks? I do not get your math

There are 14 different legendaries, each one spawning within 2-3 weeks after the demise of the previous one. As far as I understood, a troll king spawns independently from a dragon hatchling or goblin leader or whatever (and I have evidence for, as during a forest giant slaying organized by OR, a dragon hatchling nearby was spot, and slain, too, therefore I assume that they are spawning independently). So, 14 legendary creatures on 7 servers in SFI make 98. What is wrong with that?

 

Oops. I see my mistake, sorry. It is 6 types of legendaries. So it is 42 (maybe 63)  per month in SFI.

Edited by Ekcin

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The one way that slayings can be less group oriented and more community based is to now allow penning of any sort.

 

There have been several that have been unable to be penned for various reasons, and the call put out in global that a slay was gonna happen in an hour or so. These were at various times, depending on when they were found. Yea, not everyone can attend, but it does add the element of spontaneity, which is rather fun. It is also hard for even the most organized hunting group to get enough good fighters together in an hour or so to take down a full grown dragon (although they may be able to do drakes and other uniques in the spur of the moment).

 

But personally I have no problem with the mechanics as they are. I do not participate in any organized group. I have said before and I'll say it again: I have found several drakes and dragons, each time just by being out exploring the corners of the map for some reason OTHER than hunting them. The biggest problem is people want to sit in their deeds and not face any risk, but reap all rewards. 

 

 

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I think that promoting the social goals of them should take priority, as it is one of the major goals for all types of players.  WIth that being the case, though, don’t forget the other goals.  Mid level players are working towards gear still, and it shouldn’t take 18+ months of taking each and every opportunity to get said gear.  If we break apart the uniques into 2 different types, I think the main goals can be met:

 

High level uniques (say, Dragons, Troll King, Kyklops and Forest Giant) should always have 1 on each server (depends on server size I guess, I put everything relative to Xan, so smaller servers should have some adjustments made) always active.  Anybody can find and trip over one, but they are normally passive creatures and don’t attack but will defend, and they prefer to remain hidden.  They should have an announcement that “The Black Dragon, Typhon, has spawned on Xan.” with a unique name so people can track how long they have been around.

 

Each week or two, at a random time, one high level unique will go into a rampage and start destroying everything it is around.  This should only happen to a unique that has been sitting around in game for 5+ weeks, guaranteed to activate at week 10 at the latest.  This turns them into hostile mobs.  They will try to destroy buildings, dig out reinforced tunnels, with particular attention to boats and wagons, etc.  This comes out along with the twitter feed “the Black Dragon, Typhon,  at g12 xan has gone into a rampage”.  This will push people into getting there quick and killing him quick.  

 

They should spawn away from deeds so they shouldn't destroy active players' goods.  If they wander into a deed (or someone drops one on them as they rampage) they “get repulsed by civilization and flee (aka teleport) to a new location”.  Mechanics need some tweaking, but I think the idea is sound.

 

We want to be able to trap/pen in passives so that groups can get organized and announcements made, but at the same time we want to encourage people to not let them sit around as pets.  

 

This will prevent trapping them for long periods, and will reward groups that can get to the location quickly and defeat them.  It will also reward groups that go out looking for them, as if they find one before it goes on a rampage, they can organize and do what they do.  As long as they are still in passive, they can be penned in.  

 

Everybody in local should get some meat, scale and blood once the corps has been butchered - not on death - to those who actively participate - but measuring things like heals should count, but currently don't.  Corpses should have weight though so shouldn’t be easy to transport and should decay very fast (like, minutes, not hours), and QL of the corps should impact ql of drops.  Scale amounts should be set so that X number of dragon kills equal one bit of armor, and that bit should be reasonable.  How long should it take for one person to obtain one armor?  It should also be important in that gear made from scale (and there should be something equivalent for the non-dragons, weapon bits or something) needs to be replenished with higher ql of that material now and then.  Thinking more in terms of repairs like bridges need bricks, instead of imping, but more like an age timer instead of just regular damage that happens through use or even imping up.  Looting should be for specials like books, and should also include the skull and perhaps some other cosmetics.

 

The above is, relatively speaking, minor changes to the existing mechanics (at least from a player standpoint).  Below is a fairly radical change, though.

 

I think there should be a lower level with drakes/hatchlings and perhaps also with the Goblin Leader.  They should be spawning a lot more than they are.  They should be like Troll Champs to kill and with spawn rates.  A single player with 75+ skills and armor should have a small chance, if good playing skills, to take one out.  Unlike troll champs, guards should avoid these encounters - I killed my first troll champ at fighting 16, by letting the guards tank him.  “The guards refuse to heed your call against the blue wurmling”.  They should give out all the loot similar to other critters, upon death and butchering.  The goblin should have a magic staff or something weaponish to go with the hatchlings armor.  I would like to add in a few more, such as Demons from Sol or the random Valeri critter.   They should have a chance at dropping rare books and other sorcery items, but should be much lower than the big guys, and it should have higher chances with higher skills (like butchering).  Again, think in terms of who is after these guys (mid levels trying to gear up, high levels looking for a solo challenge with mats that they can sell, etc.) along with how long it should take for a player to gather these.  It should be a time commitment similar to grinding a single skill from 0 to 90, not 20 skills from 0 to 100. 

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