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Combat Overhaul Testing

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After some testing I must say I'm pretty dissapointed in these changes so far. Was expecting a major overhaul with more interactive gameplay.


So far it seems like barely anything changed except for more visual indicators which are good. I'm not a pvp player so my feedback will be pve oriented with some new ideas.


I hoped for more dynamic pve combat but at current state nothing is really going to change in pve. Changing attacking sides and using 1-3 skills during a fight (with tougher enemies) doesn't really make killing faster or worth hussle.

 

Autofight seems to be working ok. Kinda looks like it's using moves and skills at random. In manual fight you can still do nothing and still efficiently kill stuff.
Sometimes autofight tries to use skills a bit to quickly and gives you message like this "[20:20:31] You cannot use another special move for 0 seconds." thus skipping the turn for using special skill.

 

Green/red skull icon doesn't really tell much about difficulty because fight is still too random. Hell scorpious or troll are shown as green at 90 skills/70 body stats. In scale set I can still get my ass kicked by fighting one or laugh at another because he did nothing.


Skills could get more love as well. Skill that reduces food/water is completely useless in pve. Low Rider description says "Does a little bit of everything" but what does that mean? I think there should be more classic skill effects similar to stun and CR reduction. Maybe making skills being useable only while targeting certain body parts should be changed? Like let us pick our set of skills from the list and put them on a skill bar and make them work differently depending on targeted body part. Higher fighting skill mixed with specific weapon skill would let you use these skills, so players will have to unlock them first.


For example attack that temporarily slows your target. If used while targeting lower parts, it will slow down movement, middle parts/hands - attack speed, top - blocks using skills maybe? More examples could be skills that utilize weapon enchantments with increased effect and some interesting outcome, guaranteeing/increasing critical strike chance, etc.
These ideas most likely won't help much at this point and they would mostly affect pvp, so I'm gonna leave it for people who know more about pvp.


Visual indicators are great, but please make them adjustable. Like the ring that shows from which side you are getting hit - make it movable, resizable, change opacity because we can barely see it. Add permanent, faint arrow which shows that you are being attacked by someone from that side. If you get hit, the arrow pulses like now, signaling that you got hit. 


Green/red text above bars informing about hits is just text taken out of combat log. It's probably usefull in pvp but I guess most freedomers will turn it off since it's not that important or even might be annoying for someone. I'd love to see some numbers instead. Regular numerical value like hit for 13,82. Next to it an icon indicating what damage type you dealt. If it's crit, make it bigger/easier to recognize. Maybe someone want's to see % of damage reduced by armor? Maybe what was the chance to hit of that attack? Misses and glances could be shown as well. All that info is in combat tab, so why not on screen? Let us decide what we can see, change it's location, change the size of font, color, etc. I'd love to see combat history window that would show me last fights. Damage dealt and received.


I was hoping to finally see some real stats of my character. Character window could be expanded and show total/average values of your stats like critical chance, hit chance, damage etc. Checking more info while holding ALT could work very well with item stats. If you hold alt, you see % dmg reductions on armor and dmg/crit on weapons. Make rarity affect these stats as well.


Also, as mentioned before, nothing about dual wield, archery, no new weapon types like one handed spears or crossbows.


Would I call it combat update? Yes. Overhaul? Definitely not.


 

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Interactive combat isnt actual that fun in a game like this. Don't forget group combat which is what really is important.

Hunting is just going to get tedious if it's too interactive and the aiming/defending isn't tuned for group combat at all. It would definitely seem like a negative change on a pvp server in regards to the aiming/defending being more important.

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18 minutes ago, Joemog said:

Interactive combat isnt actual that fun in a game like this.

 

Your opinion. 

 

They could literally copy the tried and true tab targeting combat loop in most other MMOs like WoW and it would be a super upgrade from what we have now.

 

We have MUD combat system at best, with a few interface buttons so we don't have to type our commands.

Edited by phennexion
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Please no flying numbers, I always hated that.

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Difficulty indicator isn't right. I tried fighting an Aged sol demon with 50 skills and 30 characteristics. 50 ql steel chain, 50 ql two-handed axe, mounted on horse. Using Auto fight. I got killed while mob had around 80% of life left.

 

I'd try testing auto fight but I dont' understand how to use manual fight system nor are there enough mobs around to do so.

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What a major disappointment this is... waited years for it, but overall... meh...

It still feels older than the game is.

All that really changed is that now we get all the stuff that was inside the combat window printed on top of my characters head.

Long lines of text in my face every time something gets hit. Please make easy to read icons from those lines.

the directional indicators are nice but it doesn't really add more fun to the game.

It's still slow and it is still standing still a lot while you wait.

 

As a new player you won't see those skills you can click anyway so I don't expect any new positive steamreviews to come from this change.

And make some icons for those skills.

 

Overall it's still 1995 and it won't make me more willing to go hunting for leather..

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On 2/25/2021 at 10:46 AM, phennexion said:

 

. . . We have MUD combat system at best, with a few interface buttons so we don't have to type our commands.

 

YES. ^ This ^

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~TL:DR~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ditch the decades-old "narrative combat" concept. Streamline HUD/on-screen combat visuals. Use icons, custom colors, and such to replace as much combat text as possible. Get this stuff organized. Push beyond "update" and deliver actual "overhaul" content, not just back-end patching of things we should have already had. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

In general, I feel like some of these on-screen combat visuals entirely miss the point of combat visuals.  #1 is to deliver vital data that informs tactical adjustments in as CONSCISE a manner as possible. READING A FULL SENTENCE IS NOT "CONSCISE COMBAT VISUALS". 

 

Full, detailed sentences belong in the combat log - for fight review after combat has ended & you want to implement tweaks or revisions in your weapon, armor, tactical choices, timing, etc. On-screen visuals need to be a combo of simple icons and single-word or single-phrase text. Even with turn-based combat systems, if I want a "narrative" experience of combat, I'll pull up the log window - but the point is, we don't want narrative combat anymore. Games / MMOs moved away from that literally decades ago. 

 

I don't need a full combat overhaul - I wasn't even really expecting one anyway - but I did expect the current combat system to be better implemented. Right now, it feels like this update took the current combat system elements & just moved various elements to new places in the UI and made otherwise routine tweaks to the back-end numbers to better balance the system. That is minor patch content. Not a "Combat Overhaul." 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's some thoughts, so far - 

  • sentences & details belong in combat logs, not the HUD
     
  • when possible, replace full text in the HUD with simple icons or simplified text (arrows, ability and status effect symbols or text, color-coded damage types, CRITS in CAPS or a special color, etc.)
     
  • Organize floating combat visuals to separate what is incoming versus outgoing. My preference would be robust customizable HUD elements, but I know I'm dreaming. I would settle for something like incoming on the left side, outgoing on the right. Or incoming above the enemy head, outgoing below the enemy feet.  etc.
     
  • Scroll floating combat visuals when in close sequence. As I scanned the combat visuals about the hit I just took, the text would quickly be replaced by the next thing. Scrolling retains sequential info (like a combat log), but more succinctly - and keeps everything on-screen long enough for the information to be scanned before it disappears. Customizable would be preferred, but at least a Toggle on/off would be appreciated. 
     
  • We already know our damage type(s). This can help simply the HUD visuals. All I need on-screen is Blow Strength + Result. We chose and equip our weapons out of combat and can familiarize with all the special moves available. When we're actually in combat, "Light Slap" is optimal. "Hard Hurt" and "Deadly Damage." That's all. 
     
  • Thank you for reducing / tweaking the blood overlay... Can we get a Toggle option, please? 
     
  • I applaud and encourage remaining firmly away from the numbers / damage game. A single "50 slashing damage" begins an inevitable race to a finish line littered with epeen, dps checks, gear min/maxing, and more epeen. Not a good look - not a good fit with Wurm. 
     
  • Accessibility options... . Players don't need to be coddled, but please just consider customizable options for colors (for colorblind or color-sensitive players), customizable sizing & transparency for text, icons, visual effects (for neurovisual syndromes or other visually impaired players), the ability to Toggle on/off visual effects, overlays, specific elements (for a variety of neurodivergent reasons, including sensory processing impairments). etc. 
     
  • Design and Implement combat viability for fighting & weapon styles already in-game but otherwise undeveloped. Unarmed fighting and/or fist-weapon fighting;  bows (and crossbows??), dual-wielding, magic (priest and sorcery).

 

Well, I think that's enough to be getting on with for now. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk. 
💜✌🏼️🌱

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I haven't even bothered to try the test server, it feels like it's a huge let down from what everyone else thought it'd be. I would've thought the rolls and whatnot would've changed, make it more skill based, changed the meta up. Help zerg prevention or something. But instead it's just visuals, which yeah it isn't bad, but that's 1000000000000000% not a combat overhaul.

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I don't know anything about programming or game design. I don't know what it takes to implement concepts. With that in mind.... I genuinely don't understand why Wurm seems to be struggling to implement this particular style of combat, when so many other games have really nailed it down already. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel (or whatever it is that is actually going on behind the curtain). 

For the record, "non-target, action RPG, tactical / intuitive, active stance, combat-realism" has come a long way in the past decade - Wurm could (and should) overhaul the combat system to be on par (or better than) the following, similar styled, games: 

  • Dark Souls & souls-like games
  • For Honor
  • Mount & Blade
  • Kingdom Come: Deliverance
  • Chivalry: Medieval Warfare
  • Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (which is a souls-like, but the combat uses parries & timing as the core mechanic, instead of blocking & dodging)
  • Ghostrunner
  • The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt
  • Mordhau
  • Ghost of Tsushima
  • Valheim
  • New World (from alpha / beta previews so far)

A lot of these are recent releases, but for cryin' out loud, Bushido Blade was 1997,  Way of the Samurai was 2002, and that's not even to mention Onimusha, Ninja Gaiden, any of the Assassins' Creed games, or the different combat systems in the Zelda franchise. Every time I think I've really mentioned them all, another one comes to mind - Vermintide II or Dishonored - and I'm not even good enough at active, tactical combat to play half of these! 

Wurm needn't be as brutally unforgiving as Souls. We don't need to be as one-mistake-you-die as Sekiro or Tsushima. But even the "hack n slash" versions of this style of combat are still rewarding in both depth and scope. Wurm is the game that has the non-combat gameplay I want - but I have combat-oriented friends and family. I want to bring them onboard to the Wurm life... they'll never play this game with me until there is an actual combat system. 


Is it lack of development staff? I'll pay for more premium accounts! I'll buy silver every month!
Get staff. Pay staff. Make it happen. 

image-asset.jpeg

 

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I have not played Valheim (nor do I intend to), but watched Malena and others playing it. And I fail to see what is so much better with the combat system there. I find the combat there - politely spoken - fairly undercomplex. A big minus are the (admittedly laudibly few) flying numbers which I find terrible. Other shooter style games have that misfeature even more. The philosophy of such combat system is that they are very fast, reactive, avoiding thinking most times, and are carpal tunnel killers as well as often battles of material where the strongest GPU wins.

 

Of course Wurm combat is arguably less exciting, maybe boring for some. And shooter style combat is certainly appreciated by many.

 

Generally I love the possibility to analyze combat using the logs at least afterwards, and as a fast reader I do not miss more intuitive optical hints too much. Ok life bars of course. I would appreciate more choices in stances and special attacks, and in particular more effects of special attacks on mobs. For example I do not see any NPC caster interrupted though sent down sprawling, being stunned by blunt strike, or by low rider. I hope that will be improved somewhat.

 

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3 hours ago, Amata said:

Wurm could (and should) overhaul the combat system to be on par (or better than) the following, similar styled, games: 

  • Dark Souls & souls-like games
  • For Honor
  • Mount & Blade
  • Kingdom Come: Deliverance
  • Chivalry: Medieval Warfare
  • Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (which is a souls-like, but the combat uses parries & timing as the core mechanic, instead of blocking & dodging)
  • Ghostrunner
  • The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt
  • Mordhau
  • Ghost of Tsushima
  • Valheim
  • New World (from alpha / beta previews so far)

Yeah, sorry but that's simply not realistic in any way.

 

What's also not realistic, is the amount of time taken to work on this "overhaul," if it can really even be called that. 

It begs the question; what really has been going on for the last 8months? What plagues this games development cycle so extremely that what boils down to a UI + mechanics improvement takes months?

Have contractors been looked into since we received the roadmap? Is there a lack of volunteers? It's genuinely worrying considering the amount of money spent by players, and it's nearly been a year since that influx began.

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I haven't tested the changes personally, but after reading here and hearing feedback it seems like a bit of a let down. Not really an overhaul but just more of a combat update/combat UI update. Being that I was gone for a long while and returned just prior to steam launch I must say I feel a bit let down with this "overhaul" that was supposed to launch alongside steam originally, and from just a quick look through some of the posts I could find on it has been in some way in the works for 2 years (or more) that this is what comes of it?

 

I posted asking for some update on the roadmap about the portion of the roadmap dealing with hires and the dev team. Hopefully we can get some answers here or there about just what is going on behind the scenes, because if this is it then something around here really needs to change...

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On 2/22/2021 at 11:41 PM, Wulfmaer said:

 

My initial though was "I hope there is an option to turn that off". But, sadly there isn't. Think I would have preferred to have any text remain in the combat window, but have a way of filtering what is being shown there.

 

Even more irritating is that the text from special moves is not integrated in with the combat text, rather than overlaid separately across the screen, and obscuring the combat text.

I wish that this could be disabled too.

 

I also wish there was a colourblind option if they are going to go with the green/red icons, for us colourblind people.

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On 3/3/2021 at 5:07 PM, Ekcin said:

And I fail to see what is so much better with the combat system there. I find the combat there - politely spoken - fairly undercomplex.

 

Yes, the combat in Valheim was initially encouraging, but then... well... the bows & arrows are fun?  The point of including Valheim on my list of similarly styled games was specifically because the combat turned out to be underwhelming. Not every combat system that is (1) non target, (2) combat-realism, and (3) tactical / action RPG, needs to end up as complex and brutal as, for example, Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice. Sometimes devs take those same core 3 aspects of this style and deliver something like.. Valheim.

 

For what it's worth, the wide variety in the combat of the games I listed was intended to be encouraging. Like, here's where the niche currently is - plenty of room for Wurm to jump on in, too! I was also hoping to demonstrate that the combat landscape is very diverse - there's absolutely no reason why Wurm combat need emulate shooter style combat, or even hack n' slash swordplay. Many of the combat systems on that list are slow, tactical, realistic swordplay -type games, balancing defending against incoming attacks while holding outgoing attacks for weak spots or precision strikes, etc. Given what the combat system in Wurm currently looks like, I genuinely thought that this combat style was the way Wurm devs want to go. 

 

Which brings us to.... 

On 3/3/2021 at 5:34 PM, Jore said:

Yeah, sorry but that's simply not realistic in any way.

 

What's also not realistic, is the amount of time taken to work on this "overhaul," if it can really even be called that. 

 

Yeah, Wurm combat is never ever ever going to be anything Souls-like, that's for sure. But, it could be at least as good (or better than) Valheim, and some of the others on that list. Like you, I have looked at this combat "overhaul" and feel mystified. What about this took two years to create? What is the dev team even aiming for at this point? 

 

With the current "combat system " Wurm is already, technically, on that list in terms of similarities of style. . . So what I'm curious about, after all this time and only a basic update to show for it,  what even is the goal for combat in Wurm? 

 

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It's quite unrealistic to expect Wurm to transform into a real-time action combat system, the likes of Mount & Blade or Mordhau (since those are, in my opinion, the most exceptional melee combat systems in games these days). Wurm Online would suffer trying to implement that due to the servers being in a central location and the playerbase being worldwide. In order to achieve decent real-time performance in Wurm, you would need to split the playerbase into regional clusters (EU, NA, AUS, etc.) in order to mitigate the severe latency. Trying to play Mordhau on 150-200 ping is misery, and transforming Wurm into that would be highly detrimental to anyone not within reasonable distance to the servers.

 

Beyond that, Wurm's current system actually has the benefit of being mostly immune to latency. Since there is very little "twitch" combat mechanics, the system makes it so players with horrendous ping are still able to play the combat with reasonable success. Believe it or not, there's quite a few people who actually like the way that they can simply stand infront of a creature and wait for it to die. And by all means, if the player is strong enough or has the equipment to do so, then that should be fine! There's nothing wrong with that!

 

Combat currently functions in a way that is akin to a turn-based tactics game. You take your turn every X seconds based on your weapon, swinging at the opponent. In turn, the opponent also takes their turn every X seconds, taking a swing at you. Everything that occurs is mostly under-the-hood and not easily understood by players without reading a 20 page document detailing all the variables that go into combat rating, flanking bonus, glance rates, and similar. To the untrained eye, you just keep swinging at eachother until one character runs out of health.

 

Now, in my opinion, the real goal of a combat overhaul would be to refine the current combat system to one that is more akin to modern MMORPG's, while maintaining it's high fantasy identity. This would also need to be designed in such a way that it would be mostly immune to the ping problems, and simply extend/enhance what already exists instead of replacing it outright. What would that look like? Simply put, it would be a hybrid of conventional MMORPG and Turn-based Tactics games. A list of inspirations like the following:

  • World of Warcraft/Final Fantasy Tactics
  • Star Wars: The Old Republic/Tactics Ogre
  • Final Fantasy XIV/Disgaea

To try and illustrate further, I'll try to make some comparisons:

  1. Stamina in Wurm would work like Mana in other games.
    • Special moves would costs a certain amount of stamina to use, with more powerful ones costing more stamina.
    • Certain actions might give the ability to drain or restore stamina during combat.
  2. Each weapon archetype (axes, knives, swords) would have their own set of special moves, and a "mechanic" designed around them. This is akin to classes in standard MMORPG's. Some examples:
    • Knives might work off a combo system, where some special moves would grant combo points that can then be expended on powerful high-damage special moves. This designates a style of assassination & pure damage.
    • Swords might have a riposte mechanic, where special moves would prepare a counter-attack when your opponent attacks you, further refining it's style as a defensive weapon.
    • Axes might utilize a rage mechanic, where special moves or taking damage would count towards rage. Rage built would naturally increase damage taken, but also increase damage dealt. You could use special moves to maintain maximum rage, or expend it on moves to deal more damage. This refines axes as a highly offensive option, while still maintaining some defense if played towards it.
  3. Special moves would be designed with chaining/combos in mind, using the mechanics above.

All of this achieves the goals marked above. Players can ignore special moves entirely, and continue with the back-and-forth swinging to determine outcome of combat. Additionally, with several seconds cooldown on special moves, it's not heavily ping-reliant. Players can safely use special moves at a mild delay and not see a significant decrease in combat efficiency. Finally, it would leverage the UI improvements made perfectly, allowing the new mechanics to be shown in the templates above the characters instead of relying on the status bar or event logs.

 

In all, the above system could be designed and implemented in a couple months. Most of the tools required to create it already exist, and the UI improvements made would complement it exceptionally well. I doubt anyone would be mad with having new tools to play with, especially since they can ignore it altogether if they so desire.

 

That said, I feel the need to echo above concerns that it's just underwhelming. Steam launch was 8 months ago and so far we've got the pending favor and the upcoming minor combat update to show for it. The fact that it does not touch on dual wield or the difference between priests and non-priests in combat is shocking. To a lesser extent, the fact it doesn't add new weapons (warhammer for PvE?), armour, or simply add any new content at all to the combat system is also surprising. No balance tweaks on existing weapons and armour is additionally disappointing. I originally stopped playing in November, thinking to myself "I'm going to wait until the combat overhaul to dig my teeth back into the game and figure out the new combat." With the current patch notes, I have to say I'm not excited for it at all, and don't see myself returning as a result of this update.

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On 3/4/2021 at 2:38 AM, Amata said:

I don't know anything about programming or game design. I don't know what it takes to implement concepts. With that in mind.... I genuinely don't understand why Wurm seems to be struggling to implement this particular style of combat, when so many other games have really nailed it down already. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel (or whatever it is that is actually going on behind the curtain). 
 

image-asset.jpeg

 

 

Simply put,

 

The engine would not support that type of game play.
They'd have to rebuild the entire game - how characters are coded and basically put an entire new engine in to pick up that type of gameplay - physics, hit detection, models and textures, completely rebuild the movement and positioning systems - detection systems.
These types of systems can't just be added - they'd have to rebuild the game from the ground up.

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Posted (edited)

I have to say I am a bit sad how minor the changes seam to be (can´t say if its really the case since we as players cant see the code and its hard to say how much work it really was so fare. I talk about what we as players can see).

I don´t expect a exceptional combat with real-time elements. Wurm combat is more turn based and this make it work well for a game like Wurm but over all we could really need more depth and remodeling some of the features.

 

In the current system I would joke that all weapons are not more distinct than in Skyrim where every weapon is basically a baseball bat in different skins. And in Wurm that you swing in metronome like intervals this bats

 

For PvP one change I would like to see is the removing of the windup time for the first "combat" round. Currently the fastest horse win because the one with the faster horse will catch up and are the one that can manipulate the swing timer by breaking combat more easy. On top its some time problematic with server lag that one party can already hit while the other is not close enough for combat.

At the moment its like you Target an enemy, run to it and then draw your weapon and get read to fight. This don´t feel natural or like a good combat opening flow for PvE to.

 

Some love for Dual wielding and a more direction for the weapon types would be great.

Edited by Radircs
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Posted (edited)

TLDR: 

Wurm is already using / supporting an active, real-time combat system. I do not want to transform, change, or completely re-engineer that system. An active, real-time combat system can end up looking like a very wide variety of things - not all of which are fast ("twitch") or punishing (Souls-like). Wurm is already positioned within the core features of this type of combat system - using long timers and slow pacing to emphasis the tactical over the twitch and the opportunity to use strategy to overwhelm an enemy instead of button mashing.

 

That is fantastic.

 

I had hoped the "overhaul" would further develop and promote these key features, in addition to implementing UI changes to make combat feel more accessible. There are many contemporary examples of different ways combat features have been implemented to pick and chose from, or inspire. There are many specific suggestions and requests in this thread as well as the other Wurm subforums for exactly which features or mechanics Wurmians would like to see built up in the future. 

Why were these things not already part of this overhaul? I am mystified, and a bit disappointed. 

PS - give love to dual wielding and bows

 

 

a LOT of 'blah blah blah" from me is behind this spoiler. If you don't see a problem or see something you feel you need to engage with... go ahead and skip the blah blah blah below. 

Spoiler

 

On 3/4/2021 at 11:54 PM, Sindusk said:

It's quite unrealistic to expect Wurm to transform into a real-time action combat system,

 

This response is nonsensical. Wurm already is a real-time action combat system. 

 

A real-time combat system is one that uses ability cooldowns and action timers to control the pace of combat while all combatants are engaged concurrently. As opposed to a turn-based combat system that controls the pace of combat by separating combatants into distinct turns per round. It does not matter how long or short the cooldowns and timers and invisible modifiers are - if two or more opponents are able to access their abilities and take actions in a synchronous manner, that's real-time combat. 

 

An action combat system is one that requires active input from the player to target, dodge, and otherwise direct attacks / defense. The opposite of an action combat system is a tab-target system or variant that uses game mechanisms to assist the player in locking on & guiding all their abilities & actions to the target. Action combat systems take active player metrics to guide targeting -  elements like facing, flanking, distance, footing, and so on. An active combat system means that a player in combat can interact with the environment and/or the opponent to increase their combat modifiers actively. In a targeted / tab-targeting system, those combat metrics are passive, not active, and- broadly speaking - a player's footing or the direction they are facing are not going to impact the outcome of their abilities & combat. 

 

On 3/4/2021 at 11:54 PM, Sindusk said:

the likes of Mount & Blade or Mordhau (since those are, in my opinion, the most exceptional melee combat systems in games these days)

 

Yes, my list of examples included games that are exemplary.  As I've already clarified, I hardly expect Wurm to suddenly develop into a combat powerhouse neither in terms of difficulty, learning curve, complexity, or depth. While the list includes M&B and Mordhau, it also includes Valheim and New World (forgive a small amount of speculation on my part). Valheim is basically 2-button combat. I don't expect combat in New World to be much more complex or difficult than that kind of themepark-MMO-appropriate combat. 

The point of the list was to demonstrate the exceedingly wide variety in ways to implement the same, core, combat system. All of the games on that list have core combat features identical to Wurm.

 

All of those games are action systems, using non-targeted combat; they are all real-time, all combat abilities & actions happen concurrently, not in a divided turn-based framework. Like Wurm, all of those games implement mechanics placing importance on strategic, tactical elements like focus, active defense, stance, and attacking opponents' weak spots or vulnerable sides, etc. And all the games on that list place design focus on combat-realism. Like Wurm, these games differentiate between weapon types, move sets, and martial techniques. Some do this better than others - but in all cases, combat realism is a stated style priority of the game's development team. 

 

On 3/4/2021 at 11:54 PM, Sindusk said:

transforming Wurm into that would be highly detrimental to anyone not within reasonable distance to the servers.

 

Yes, I agree. That's one of the reasons that I'm not suggesting that Wurm transform into anything else. 

 

On 3/4/2021 at 11:54 PM, Sindusk said:

Wurm's current system actually has the benefit of being mostly immune to latency. Since there is very little "twitch" combat mechanics, the system makes it so players with horrendous ping are still able to play the combat with reasonable success. 

 

Yes, I am personally stupendously terrible at twitch combat. And latency / ping issues frequently interfere with what should otherwise be a fair, even tournament of skill and tactics. Nobody wants that. (Or at least, only trolls and gankers want that). 

 

On 3/4/2021 at 11:54 PM, Sindusk said:

Believe it or not, there's quite a few people who actually like the way that they can simply stand infront of a creature and wait for it to die. And by all means, if the player is strong enough or has the equipment to do so, then that should be fine! There's nothing wrong with that!

 

Having an underlying auto-attack system is not mutually exclusive to the things I'm talking about. Wurm is already doing it. So are other games, like WoW.

 

Given a large enough 'level' gap and bonus modifiers coming in from good gear and good weapons - yes, a player absolutely should be able to stand in front of some boar or wolf or rat or whatever and just let your auto-attacks kill it to death. Goodness knows, once I'm over level a certain mob type, I don't waste special moves or stamina or combat actions on killing trash mobs beneath me. There is nothing wrong with that! 

 

I said nothing about removing auto-attacks from Wurm combat. In fact, my recent experience with combat in Valheim has increased my belief that an ample auto-attack baseline should always be integrated into the combat system of games like Wurm or Valheim. Too many elements of noncombat game play in Valheim were entirely locked behind combat based gates - with no underlying auto-attack system, Valheim offers NO way at all for noncombat players to participate in the game (builders, crafters, decorators, animal tamers, etc). That's not a good look, and should never be what happens inside Wurm. 

 

 

On 3/4/2021 at 11:54 PM, Sindusk said:

Combat currently functions in a way that is akin to a turn-based tactics game.

 

No. Wurm does not have a turn-based combat system.

I don't know what else to say here other than just... no. Wurm just isn't turn-based combat, or anything akin to turn-based combat. 

 

 

On 3/4/2021 at 11:54 PM, Sindusk said:

 Everything that occurs is mostly under-the-hood and not easily understood by players without reading a 20 page document detailing all the variables that go into combat rating, flanking bonus, glance rates, and similar. To the untrained eye, you just keep swinging at each other until one character runs out of health.

 

I don't think you need to explain to anyone that combat outcomes involve a lot of behind the curtain math, influenced by a copious amount of modifiers. That's basically all game combat, ever. I have parents who were using that same core as the basis for combat in their pen & paper Dungeons and Dragons campaigns back in the 70's. So. Yes. We know. 
 

On 3/4/2021 at 11:54 PM, Sindusk said:

You take your turn every X seconds based on your weapon, swinging at the opponent. In turn, the opponent also takes their turn every X seconds, taking a swing at you.

 

It honestly sounds like you have experienced a lot of real-time/active combat games that have been specifically designed to emulate key features of turn-based combat. Final Fantasy's ATB (active time battle) system is a strong example of this. When playing with the FF ATB, a player who picks "active" or "hybrid" modes interacts in combat with a real (or realistic) flow of time. The player character timers are ticking and the same time as the enemy timers, and nothing (or only special moves) can "stop time." In pure turn-based (in ATB: "wait" mode), time stops for each turn of combat in the round & the player characters can sort through menus or a list of actions, taking time to decide what to do next. 

What is described above - having cooldowns or timers setting the pace of a player character's actions happen in almost all combat systems regardless of turn-based or active. But if the character timers and the enemy timers are ticking at the same, freeflow of time - at its core that's active combat. 

Wurm - like the FF ATB system - uses incredibly long timers and cooldowns to set the pace of combat at v-e-r-y  s-l-o-w ,  but it is still combat happening in real time. 

 

Just to be super clear: I want Wurm to continue to prioritize a very slow & tactical combat pace. I want Wurm to retain, or lengthen, the current timers and cooldowns. I am happy that combat is in real-time, but I very much appreciate that the longer timers and CDs mean that Wurm combat negates issues like lag, latency, juggling multiple special  moves, and tactical offensive/defensive decision making in combat. 

 

So that it's stated, for the record, I do not now, or ever, want to see "twitch" combat in Wurm. 

"Twitch" combat is a special, highly specific, type of real-time/active combat. In "twitch" combat, the various timers and CDs effecting when actions can be taken in combat are all reduced to zero, or very nearly zero. This rewards button mashing. This means players with access to powerful gaming rigs can easily dominate other players without needing to invest much skill or competency in learning the game. This promotes players in gear and rank on the virtue of low latency or geographic adjacency to the server location. Some people like twitch combat. I am not one of them. I do think there are some games where the setting or context of the game makes "twitch" combat systems more appropriate than in other games... but that is NOT what Wurm is. 

 

On 3/4/2021 at 11:54 PM, Sindusk said:

the real goal of a combat overhaul would be to refine the current combat system to one that is more akin to modern MMORPG's, while maintaining it's high fantasy identity.

 

Although most of your post was framed to imply a direct contradiction to my post... this ^ right here ^ is exactly the same thing that I said. 

 

On 3/4/2021 at 11:54 PM, Sindusk said:

Simply put, it would be a hybrid of conventional MMORPG and Turn-based Tactics games. A list of inspirations like the following:

 

I've either directly played or have experience with every game on your list of inspirations. A blending or hybrid of those combat systems would be exactly the combat system Wurm already has. The combat system I described in my post, and have discussed above. (1) real-time combat, but the absolute opposite of "twitch" in terms of timers and pacing (2) active combat to emphasize tactical fighting conditions, like flanking or footing, defending incoming strikes & striking at weak spots, (3) time does not stop while decisions are being made, but the various metrics and modifiers active in the background support and promote an equitable gameplay experience, no matter what specs your computer has, or where in the world you are located. 
 

On 3/4/2021 at 11:54 PM, Sindusk said:

All of this achieves the goals marked above. Players can ignore special moves entirely, and continue with the back-and-forth swinging to determine outcome of combat. Additionally, with several seconds cooldown on special moves, it's not heavily ping-reliant. Players can safely use special moves at a mild delay and not see a significant decrease in combat efficiency. Finally, it would leverage the UI improvements made perfectly, allowing the new mechanics to be shown in the templates above the characters instead of relying on the status bar or event logs.

 

Every thing you said here, and the specific examples you provided to explain, are exactly what I was saying. Thank you for saying it a different way, to help clarify for anyone who didn't understand the way that I said it. I don't get why I was misunderstood, and I am confused about how it seems established terminology seemed to be used to mean very different things - but it doesn't matter if I understand - only if others can get the message, from either of us. 

 



✌🏼️💜🌱

 

EDIT!! - I think I've figured out why I gave the impression that I'm trying to push Wurm towards twitch combat - I kept saying "non target". I'm very sorry, I misspoke there. I'd like to blame BDO bc that's the other game I've been playing recently when not on Wurm, and it has a non target combat system. But it's more honestly just a total brain fart on my part. 😅🤷🏻‍♀️ I don't know how I would describe Wurm's targeting concept. "Ecclectic" maybe? I've played hard tab-target games like WoW, and soft target games or games with hybrid systems (ESO or GW2, maybe?), and completely non target games like, I dunno, Crowfall. (I'm writing this off-the-cuff). I find Wurm's targeting hard to describe because there is a difference between targeting for actions (like cutting down a tree or destroying a wall) and targeting for combat (which pops your target's portrait up & unfolds the combat menu)... and all of that is at also distinct from the targeting required when using a bow & arrows. 

 

I'm not looking at Wurm and wanting FPS, looter/shooter, or twitch based non-target combat. Not at all. If Wurm were to implement a non-target system, I would hypothesize a system more like Tera, BDO, or GW2. The sort of system that allows for my hatchet swinging at a tree to do damage to the bear that just ran up & got between me and the tree, even tho I didn't have it targeted for combat yet. That kind of thing. Not the reticle-aiming twitch-reflex kind of non target combat system in shooters & battlegrounds - those games are an entirely different genre from Wurm, and I'll be happy for them to stay waaaaaay over there, away from me. 

 

I'm very sorry for my mistake in using a term without being more clear about how I was envisioning it being implemented within Wurm. 

Edited by Amata
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17 hours ago, Amata said:

EDIT!! - I think I've figured out why I gave the impression that I'm trying to push Wurm towards twitch combat - I kept saying "non target".

 

Yeah, that's precisely what gave the wrong impression. Turning Wurm into non-target where you have to actually attack something in physical space using collision is what I was originally implying would be unrealistic. I still stand by that statement. However, it sounds like your intention was much closer to grounded in reality, so I apologize if it felt like I was attacking your post without reason. Transforming Wurm Online's combat closer to what actually works in MMO's is exactly what I'd like to see as well.

 

We could spend hours debating the finer details of what to define Wurm's current combat system as. Turn-based attached to real time? Tab targeting without the ability to tab? There's a lot of different ways to describe it... which is exactly part of the problem. It needs to have a clear design and meta-game. Right now, it's a very passive system which doesn't require nor encourage user input during combat. I'd like to see something that allows players to have some agency over their combat experience, and I think that's what you're asking for as well.

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I'm quite saddened by the prospective "overhaul" as well. This is not an overhaul. This is a bug fix that should have happened years ago. Crits working on pve? Lets see, most games implemented....20 years ago. The fact you couldn't actually score a crit hit on a pve mob made wurm stand out ironically. What wurm combat is in modern terms is an autobattler with a click button for focus and direction. And the click buttons are pretty much useless, the only interation that matters is when do you run away from the mob/can you run away. I'm terribly unconvinced that wurms dev team will be able to balance mobs CR (rift mobs anyone),  and it's been known for years that mobs had essentially infinite stamina, so you could special move them to death, it would never bother their stam and reduce their combat effectiveness on that front. These are flaws in the game play design. Simply removing the glaring flaws doesn't make it an overhaul if you don't add productive, beneficial, worthwhile player agency to combat. Orrrrrr you can remove the glaring flaws and leave wurm at it's autobattler finest (even if it tends to bug out).
One of the things I find fascinating is that people like to hate on the wurm combat "log spam" and thats fine. But one funnest games I ever saw do this was dwarf fortress, because the it gave the impression it was telling a story. It was quite easy to read the log spam of a fight and feel like you were getting "into" cheering for your dorf, or watching it die miserably to a kitten. Wurm's combat logs haven't changed in the 10 years I've been playing and have afaik no actual bearing on what happens in a fight, if you glance an attack it picks from 1 of 2 or 3 "glance messages". Things like this kill any immersion for players in even reading combat logs as they scroll by because all you need to look for is green and red lines. Wurm combat is the worst in any game I've stuck with, but once I realized it was only automated combat and all I needed to do was to watch for when to run away, because mostly skill and gear don't really matter, combat made *so* much more sense.

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3eaa5ef7e48148c3824436547ed50404.jpg

focus etc.. really will be much better shown in the target HUD(the one below)... this is me looking WAY UP ABOVE ME  - only to be able to check the focus levels/attack icon

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Is this still open? I'm trying to access test preview but it crashes.

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9 hours ago, Vorticella said:

Is this still open? I'm trying to access test preview but it crashes.

It's still open, we fixed that crash today so you should be able to access it fine now.

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Is there a way to see which way the mob is attacking you without reading the combat log? If the key to winning the fight is to defend in the direction that you are being attacked, there should be a quick way to visually see which way the mob is attacking you (before you get hit)

 

How can you tell whether a special move landed? Is there a way to see the effect of the special move landing successfully without looking at the combat log?

 

Overall, I will agree with most of the comments so far. I personally don't see how any of the changes made in this update will improve the combat experience. I was not expecting that taking the text out of the combat log and pasting it in the game world was what was meant by making the combat more visual.

 

Unless I am missing something, it looks like reading the combat log will be more important after the update to keep an eye on where the mob is attacking you and where it is defending. Aside from that, it feels that combat will be unchanged. Special moves do not seem effective and its still just better to let your swings do the damage. The mobs die to your regular attacks so fast that special moves do not seem worth the time to do. 

 

If I could offer a suggestion for the next major update it would be spend more time at the drawing board before committing to any changes. Come up with more ideas on how to improve the system you are working on and how it fits into the bigger picture of the game. Spend time to ensure that the changes are addressing the current flaws and player complaints. This update does not address any of the current issues with combat and after such a long wait, we will be left with a system that is no better than the old one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, McGarnicle said:

Is there a way to see which way the mob is attacking you without reading the combat log

That is what that red circle does. It has a line sticking out for direction. Although, it's only visible for a few moments and is easy to miss.

 

Now I do believe we are missing a visual indicator for what direction the mob is blocking.

 

I think information about combat is a big issue. I don't understand why devs won't answer questions about it. Example...

I pretty sure there are advantageous counter stances. If the mob is aiming at my left parts what stance(s) should I switch into to get the best benefit given the mob's stance?

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