Retrograde

Prayer Skill Tweaks

Recommended Posts

For comparisons if anyone is interested.

Yes, the prayer skill gain sample is small. But it's still good to see.

 

Fo Priest with 100 Faith

No sleep bonus: [2021-02-01] [15:35:35] Prayer increased by 0.0088 to 27.3128

Sleep bonus: [2021-02-01] [15:36:57] Prayer increased by 0.0177 to 27.3305

5 out of 10 prayers resulted in no prayer skill gain.

 

PreChange gain @100 Faith for comparison:

[2020-12-30] [01:02:14] Prayer increased by 0.0095 to 27.1443

Less prayer gain now than before the change. Is this intended?

 

 

Mag Priest with 100 Faith

No sleep bonus: [2021-02-01] [15:38:13] Prayer increased by 0.0090 to 26.9614

Sleep bonus: [2021-02-01] [15:38:58] Prayer increased by 0.0180 to 26.9794

3 out of 10 prayers resulted in no prayer skill gain.

 

PreChange gain @100 Faith for comparison:

[2020-12-30] [01:01:37] Prayer increased by 0.0093 to 26.7531

Less prayer gain now than before the change. Is this intended?

 

 

Vyn Priest with 100 Faith

No sleep bonus: [2021-02-01] [16:13:33] Prayer increased by 0.0100 to 26.6784

Sleep bonus: [2021-02-01] [16:14:27] Prayer increased by 0.0199 to 26.6983

3 out of 10 prayers resulted in no prayer skill gain.

 

PreChange gain @100 Faith for comparison:

[2020-12-22] [14:21:34] Prayer increased by 0.0103 to 26.6084

Less prayer gain now than before the change. Is this intended?

 

 

Libila Priest with 100 Faith

No sleep bonus: [2021-02-01] [16:26:21] Prayer increased by 0.0103 to 26.8540

Sleep bonus: [2021-02-01] [16:27:00] Prayer increased by 0.0206 to 26.8746

4 out of 10 prayers resulted in no prayer skill gain.

 

PreChange gain @100 Faith for comparison:

[2020-12-30] [01:28:26] Prayer increased by 0.0107 to 26.6782

Less prayer gain now than before the change. Is this intended?

 

 

Vyn Follower with 30 Faith

No sleep bonus: [2021-02-01] [16:38:37] Prayer increased by 0.0434 to 8.1577

No sleep bonus with "[2021-02-01] [16:34:51] Was that a sudden gust of wind? Maybe Vynora is pleased with your devotion?": [16:34:51] Prayer increased by 0.0438 to 8.1143

Sleep bonus: [2021-02-01] [16:40:24] Prayer increased by 0.0860 to 8.2868

6 out of 10 prayers resulted in no prayer skill gain.

 

PreChange gain @100 Faith for comparison:

[2020-12-02] [12:23:16] Prayer increased by 0.0478 to 8.0705

Less prayer gain now than before the change. Is this intended?

 

 

I'm very interested in seeing what the difference in faith level is on prayer skill gain.

I'll have to grind my follower up to the same prayer as my priests to see the difference between 30 & 100 faith.

Unless someone else has a 30 follower around 26 prayer that could post their gains. :)

Edited by Craft
Went through logs and added "PreChange" Prayer Skill gains.
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so let me get this right u added the first patch to help prayer skill.u added another patch because old players cried.now prayer skill for new players is harder then it was before the patches.so does that mean that new priest are better then old priest because the prayer grind is now harder hmmm.no because  prayer skill has zero value so either leave it the way it was or make changes that help all priest.i have 4 priest and now u made it harder for new players tyvm old players and dev team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, kuruk said:

so let me get this right u added the first patch to help prayer skill.u added another patch because old players cried.now prayer skill for new players is harder then it was before the patches.so does that mean that new priest are better then old priest because the prayer grind is now harder hmmm.no because  prayer skill has zero value so either leave it the way it was or make changes that help all priest.i have 4 priest and now u made it harder for new players tyvm old players and dev team.

No, prayer skill is still MUCH easier than it was before the patches. 

 

Before the patches it was incredibly difficult and took a LOT of time. Now it takes much less time, just a little longer than the first patch did though. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

mmm no i pray grind every day on all priest and the numbers now are less then before by about.not only that but my priest with 65 faith gets less then priest at 35 faith.so like i said go bck to the way it ways wich was better then now or make it better for all priest.if this was a normal f2p or $15 bucks a month i wouldnt care but i pay over $100 per month to have what i want and help the game out and now u made it harder not do i only have to get 70 prayer but i have to get it 4 times.so u can see why im upset at this.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Updated my post to include PreChange skill gains.

I'm getting less prayer skill now than before the change (December).

I'm guessing the last update may have inadvertently broken something. :)

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Craft said:

Updated my post to include PreChange skill gains.

I'm getting less prayer skill now than before the change (December).

I'm guessing the last update may have inadvertently broken something. :)

 

 

You're close. 

 

The change made tick frequency a lot more common, and removed faith making it easier (thus slower to gain faith). 

 

It also slightly increased the skillgain per tick. 

 

This change steps back the increase of skillgain per tick, but includes the tick frequency and balances against that. 

 

The changes here are not about the same amount of successful actions giving more skill, but more successful actions. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ah ha!

Thanks for the clarification!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ok i can agree with Retrograde on that even no skill gain is less then before it does seem like skill ticks are more often.but we only had 1 day with new update and with rng will see over the days if this stays true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just for curiosity I did 10 prayers (Vynora follower). 6 of 10 succeeded. Praying rose by 0.144063 to awesome 😎 13.917719. Skill gain was 2x 0.0241, 3x0.0240, and 1x0.0239 (in this sequence, which may indicate a trend but I doubt given the small sample).

Edited by Ekcin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So ill get this with my vyn priest 100 faith : 

[14:31:25] Prayer increased by 0.0056 to 40.3502 thats with out sb.

 

SB and affinity pizza:
[14:35:46] Prayer increased by 0.0113 to 40.3728

we tested our Fo and our other vyn priest we have both has 100 faith and kinda same and the nrs dont end up + vynora has 10% more skill gain.

Fo:
Affinity food and SB:
[14:39:45] Prayer increased by 0.0186 to 42.4587
With out SB
[14:42:51]  Prayer increased by 0.0139 to 42.4726

Is char bugged?
i am kinda used to everything bugged with old chars.
[14:41:38] You entered through the portal to Wurm on day of Tears, week 2 of the starfall of the Digging, 991. That's 4543 days, 9 hours and 25 minutes ago.

on Priest name Galsaan any clue!?

Just  to show what second vyn has 65,85 and that char get this:
 

No sb:
[14:42:26] [14:39:40] Prayer increased by 0.0197 to 16.0841

SB

[14:42:17]  [14:42:04] Prayer increased by 0.0437 to 16.1672

Ill get this with my mag priest no sb but affinity food faith at 81,89

[15:10:21] Prayer increased by 0.0127 to 21.2900

with SB and food:

[15:10:48] Prayer increased by 0.0251 to 21.3151

every thing seems not to be in order somewhere.


kinda hard to reach target for my vyn priest when it dont seems to work for me. so any one seen same area?

 

Edited by MrCoolMan
Added mag gains

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just adding this the Fo our only gets ~ 50 for in gain using SB isnt that gonna do like 2x everything?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Retrograde said:

You're close. 

 

The change made tick frequency a lot more common, and removed faith making it easier (thus slower to gain faith). 

 

It also slightly increased the skillgain per tick. 

 

This change steps back the increase of skillgain per tick, but includes the tick frequency and balances against that. 

 

The changes here are not about the same amount of successful actions giving more skill, but more successful actions. 


could we get a post explaining how you arrived at the 70 hour figure?

i have no complaints about this extra change or not, mostly because it concerns math i'm not privvy to, but the 70 hour figure of action time feels very low (70 hours = 4200 minutes = 8400 prayer actions; slap on +20% or so as a rough increase since higher prayer shortens the action by a couple seconds and you're at about 10k actions, which still feels oddly low. if you got a tick every single action, that'd be an average of .007, though this has flaws in calculation due to curving exp ticks and the obvious fact that you don't get a tick on most actions). and notably, that's without any bonuses at all. AND it's supposedly at 100 faith, which made skill ticks extremely rare in the old system.

so if the dev team is using some sort of formula to arrive at this figure, it'd be important to clear up any errors in the math by people better at wurm math than me earlier rather than later.

Edited by RainRain

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MrCoolMan said:

So ill get this with my vyn priest 100 faith : 

[14:31:25] Prayer increased by 0.0056 to 40.3502 thats with out sb.

 

SB and affinity pizza:
[14:35:46] Prayer increased by 0.0113 to 40.3728

we tested our Fo and our other vyn priest we have both has 100 faith and kinda same and the nrs dont end up + vynora has 10% more skill gain.

Fo:
Affinity food and SB:
[14:39:45] Prayer increased by 0.0186 to 42.4587
With out SB
[14:42:51]  Prayer increased by 0.0139 to 42.4726

Is char bugged?
i am kinda used to everything bugged with old chars.
[14:41:38] You entered through the portal to Wurm on day of Tears, week 2 of the starfall of the Digging, 991. That's 4543 days, 9 hours and 25 minutes ago.

on Priest name Galsaan any clue!?

Just  to show what second vyn has 65,85 and that char get this:
 

No sb:
[14:42:26] [14:39:40] Prayer increased by 0.0197 to 16.0841

SB

[14:42:17]  [14:42:04] Prayer increased by 0.0437 to 16.1672

Ill get this with my mag priest no sb but affinity food faith at 81,89

[15:10:21] Prayer increased by 0.0127 to 21.2900

with SB and food:

[15:10:48] Prayer increased by 0.0251 to 21.3151

every thing seems not to be in order somewhere.


kinda hard to reach target for my vyn priest when it dont seems to work for me. so any one seen same area?

 

Are your skill ticks on show all or show e erh 0.01 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please don't take this as a complaint I just thought I'd share some data if people are interested in a reasonable expectation of time to reach 70 prayer.

I started at 23 skill on both my vyn and fo priests on Thursday and did a reasonable amount of prayer over the weekend, almost all with sleep bonus and mostly with affinity food, around 80% nutrition, no affinities, no pok, both 100 faith.

 

This chart shows the tick size vs skill, the vyn is clearly 10% higher and you can see where I didn't see my affinity food ran out the vyn matches the fo. 

ZLUIJvu.png

 

The tail end of the chart shows the impact on tick size of the recent change a fall of about 38%.

 

In terms of tick rate it dropped over time from about 70% tickrate at 20-40 skill down to about 65% at 60 skill, I believe faith affects the tick rate not the size of ticks.

 

I then took my data for my fo priest from Thursday to Monday and fitted an exponential trendline to it in order to get an approximation for the skillgain. This will reduce in accuracy below further outside this range and looks like its not a great fit early on but that doesn't bother me too much as the skill goes fast early.

 

SGa6IEZ.png

 

Using this approximation and assuming the tick size reduction was 38% I'm able to estimate the number of ticks required to reach 70 skill.

Before the reduction using this trendline formula I would estimate it to take 5117 skill ticks to reach 70 skill, which at an average of 25 seconds and a conservative 60% tickrate would be 59 hours of sleep bonused + affinity food prayer.

After the reduction in size, assuming it is a linear reduction, I estimate it will take 8253 ticks to reach 70 skill, equivalent to 95 hours of praying as above.

A more reasonable tickrate estimate at 100 faith might be 65% which would give 54 hours and 88 hours respectively.

Edited by Lethyria
missed a comma
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Galsaan 0,001
second  vyn 0,01
Fo at 0,01
Mag at 0,001

i can see ur point here so.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ill took it to 0,01 and tested on vyn with affinity food praying i got this ( to add 2-3 times on 10 prayers ) [18:36:15] <Galsaan> [18:35:57] Prayer increased by 0.0111 to 40.4231

Fo priest no food no sb

[18:37:06] <Brownie> [18:35:31] Prayer increased by 0.0122 to 43.3213

still abit off and as said vyn is 10% skill gain + vyn priest has the affinity food.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ill did 60 prays this is outcome:

2fLyqMv.jpg

0,105602
Fo is still getting more so...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, MrCoolMan said:

ill did 60 prays this is outcome:

2fLyqMv.jpg

0,105602
Fo is still getting more so...

Sounds odd, both before and after the patch I am getting more on my vyn as expected, are you sure there are no other diferences?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well i did looked a third time and i did with all skills on both chars and it has the output on chars at it should but, the fo getting faster and more skill ( more prays ticks ) then my priest, i checked with my newer chars they get aswell faster skill tick gain then my main vyn, its very odd, ill keep looking.

i got more place to look at so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"at 100 faith, the original skillgain action time to get to 70 prayer was roughly 70 hours"

 

Care to explain this?  So thats before any changes made. How that was calculated? Im sure quite few wurmians would like to know the wogic behind this, because there is quite few, me included who have spent days of constant praying..

Im sure i have done plenty of stuff "wrong" to get max skill, but still. 

 

Spending premium to click pray for days which has no impact to anything sounds truly reasonable and great gameplay mechanic. 

 

91 faith mag priest, i spend 7 hours of constant praying, which gave me 1.1985 skill and now im at 58.8, used about 30mins of SB on it and had 99% nutrition whole time. 

 

With that skill gain, it will take 12 more days and 7 hours per day to reach 70 prayer even still with this highly improved skill gain.

 

Current skill gain is 0.0020 per praying, lets say it stays like that to reach 70 prayer, it will take 5600 praying actions still to make it there and current pray action is 24 seconds... So with that it would take 37,34 'well spent' hours and assuming by the time i get to 65 it is already halved to 0.0010 at least per tick so its even more hours. Other games are starting to look interesting again. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Themystrix said:

"at 100 faith, the original skillgain action time to get to 70 prayer was roughly 70 hours"

 

Care to explain this?  So thats before any changes made. How that was calculated? Im sure quite few wurmians would like to know the wogic behind this, because there is quite few, me included who have spent days of constant praying..

Im sure i have done plenty of stuff "wrong" to get max skill, but still. 

 

Spending premium to click pray for days which has no impact to anything sounds truly reasonable and great gameplay mechanic. 

 

91 faith mag priest, i spend 7 hours of constant praying, which gave me 1.1985 skill and now im at 58.8, used about 30mins of SB on it and had 99% nutrition whole time. 

 

With that skill gain, it will take 12 more days and 7 hours per day to reach 70 prayer even still with this highly improved skill gain.

 

Current skill gain is 0.0020 per praying, lets say it stays like that to reach 70 prayer, it will take 5600 praying actions still to make it there and current pray action is 24 seconds... So with that it would take 37,34 'well spent' hours and assuming by the time i get to 65 it is already halved to 0.0010 at least per tick so its even more hours. Other games are starting to look interesting again. 

 

 

prior to the changes in the most optimal environment (1 faith, praying on rock/water) it took roughly 450 hours of actual praying w/o pok11 to hit 70 from 1. anyone saying it took less at 100 faith is out of their mind because faith was the main problem as it was counterintuitive and nerfed the 1 difficulty action even more because you wouldn't ever really hit above 1; whereas your average difficulty above 60 prayer started to slowly get better at 1 faith because average prayer difficulty at 1 faith was prayer skill minus 60

 

the only thing i can understand here is they meant "70 hours of effective skill gain praying time" which means 1/3rd of time spent = effective time because you only get skill for 1/3rd of the timer. even then its nearly half off of the actual number of hours it actually took

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/1/2021 at 3:55 PM, Reverent said:

40182 instances of "You start to Pray" in my logs.  That's about 280 Hours of prayer. Thats to hit ~56 prayer.  Tell me again how you came to your estimate?

 

8117 Times just in December

 

I have real world data that suggests you numbers are off by an exponential amount.  I can also bring up my old Freedom priest, who after also expending hundreds of hours trying to do it the right way, I cheesed it on epic to finish it off.

I think you should do search with "You finish your prayer to" instead that way you filter out the ones that never got finished. Just to make sure your data is more accurate.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ame said:

I think you should do search with "You finish your prayer to" instead that way you filter out the ones that never got finished. Just to make sure your data is more accurate.

Higher prayer skill also subtracts like 1 second per 10 skill (not 100% accurate, but it's roughly accurate), and a majority of prayers are done at higher skill levels, so the exact time spent is different.

But either ways, 70 hours of action timer for 100 faith, which is the worst skillgain, is a far cry away from seeming accurate. If the devs are going to balance around a mathematical figure of hours spent in a skill, they need to make sure that figure is correct.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I did the prayer grind on Indy with three priests. After about 60 prayer I'd average around .13-.15/day praying constantly, with affinity meal, no learned affinities. with the exception of casting when favor allowed.

Yesterday a Fo and Vyn, both 100 faith, 66 and 64 prayer, both ended up with about .40 prayer gain. That's with affinity meal, Fo has learned affinity, vyn doesn't. 

 

Yes, big increase, whether people see it or not.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Retrograde

Based on other people's replies it still feels like it'd be beneficial for us if we could have just some insight on what you devs thought about when you decided how to balance this skill. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now