Sign in to follow this  
Retrograde

Valrei International. Catching up!

Recommended Posts

43 minutes ago, Platyna said:

 

That update is a suggestion and there was a talk about in the thread they linked.

The next update will be out on Thursday, the 28th of Jan. It will include a range of bug fixes and more tweaks to the UI based on feedback, along with the prayer skill gain rework. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Platyna said:

stamina of the Vibrant light - not available for a new player, useless for a older player, players even intentionally hurt themselves to have less stamina, or they have such high BSTAM that they have no stamina related problems

yeah i don't think you understand how stamina scaling works
 

1 hour ago, Platyna said:

I checked PoL leaders on Ind - oldest and most populated server - it is a handful of players, meditation is basically a dead skill for those who want to make a journal or old bored players. 

checks the most useless path to get to high levels, makes conclusions based on that. try checking pok and seeing how far you have to scroll next time

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my opinion all new players should have a curve that grows as the game ages for the first few weeks to months of their premium. It's very hard for new players to come in and compete against veteran accounts especially on PvP servers. 

Edited by Postes
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Etherdrifter said:

Abusing a mechanic to grind more easily is definitely not something I'd want to do (which is what grinding at low faith is, and you'd have had to KNOW about that mechanic for a long time to use it to get to 70 which begs a lot of questions), and it is not something someone who wants to play a priest would do.  Mostly because you would not be playing a priest while you did it; you'd just be pressing "F to pray".

 

Ether, I am all for this change, but hold your horses, if you have a choice - grind as a follower and get better gains and grind as a priest and get worse gains, and you pick the first option it isn't abusing the game mechanics, c'mon. It is like you were mad at your dog because it ate a steak not a tomato. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Madnath said:

You're at baby levels of meditation, but it's a handy thing for not much time spent at all. You've barely tickled the system.

 

Considering how many people on Ind got to my level I am at uber mega super high level of meditation, and when I complete the journal (L70 required) I am not touching that thing ever again! At it current shape it is almost traumatic experience. 

 

2 hours ago, Madnath said:

This is exactly why all vet accounts with high body stam roll with PoP if they know the game well!

Wait... what?

I have no idea how limited your game knowledge is, I don't think sitting in CA-Help all day has really enlightened you as far as those mechanics go. Also yeah I'm sure your average player has access to a Fo priest who just sits behind you to feed you stamina lol.

 

The fact I don't like a certain skill because it is badly made, and therefore (as the path leaders show) it is dead one, doesn't mean I don't understand the game mechanics, and you don't have to mean. I am the most active Wurm player (I can bet coins against acorns for that), and I didn't burn out because 1. I do not put myself if painful mindless grinds just to gain mad skills fast. 2. I do not start 50 projects at once. 3. I maintain a basic psychical hygiene and therefore what I write is not from a perspective of clueless noob, or lazy noob, but a person who is a moderate/casual grinder, who rather has the intellectual capabilities to comprehend meditation skill gain - it is not sacred mysterious knowledge, and you don't have to be salty. ;) 

 

2 hours ago, Madnath said:

That's the baby method of using lava. Real ones know how valuable lava tiles can be for the day to day beyond crap like vein nuking.

 

It is a main method of using lava (besides lowering QL of items and causing severe wounds to decrease stamina pool), but if you know the other ways feel free to tell us. 

 

To make a long story short, meditation at its current shape is not worth it, and my noobiness has nothing to do with it. If a developer want to find out if I am right - they can probably run a script through the database to see how many users are at what level and draw the conclusion themselves. One of principles of good game development is "no dead content", and when it comes to skill IMHO meditation is quite close to be the "dead content". 

 

One person on a server that one of most populated and is 12 years old...ONE person, maxed path level. 

Edited by Platyna

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Wurmhole said:

The next update will be out on Thursday, the 28th of Jan. It will include a range of bug fixes and more tweaks to the UI based on feedback, along with the prayer skill gain rework. 

 

I know, and no idea why you are telling me that. 😉 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have real mixed feelings on the prayer grind change. I have three priests on Indy who all hit 70 prayer ON INDY, no Epic. I have two at 65+ on NFI, never once stepping foot onto Defiance. Anyone who says standing around praying is a waste of time isn't doing it right. I have tons of gems, and have channeling at 80/75 on NFI, WHILE grinding prayer. I have been able to sell a ton of gems and enchanted gear, WHILE grinding prayer. I *DO* feel like this devalues the benediction, but so does allowing people to go to Epic or Defiance. 

 

What really irks me is we complained and asked for this change when the journal was new. We were ignored. Now with the influx of new players complaining it's suddenly priority. Thanks for making a vet feel like they're voiceless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

can we get UI scale to 60%? its really big in new UI 😜

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Platyna said:

 

I am the most active Wurm player (I can bet coins against acorns for that)

L.A. Noire "Doubt" / Press X To Doubt: Image Gallery (List View) | Know  Your Meme

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, platinumteef said:

L.A. Noire "Doubt" / Press X To Doubt: Image Gallery (List View) | Know  Your Meme

 

I tease the staff to finally check it. 😉 Top10 of most active players would be interesting. 

Edited by Platyna

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Platyna said:

 

Considering how many people on Ind got to my level I am at uber mega super high level of meditation

maybe you dont understand but path leaders only show you people on the same path as you who've hit certain ranks

Power is what, the 2nd? (after Insanity) least useful pve path. Of course barely anyone is going to bother with it on the pve servers?

 

i do think madnath is overstating the value of lava though, even if it has plenty of uses in damaging items (i.e being basically mandatory for grinding butchering/repair) on top of busting veins

 

to state something simply, you could have grinded up to 70 meditation in about a month or two with little effort on a daily basis to 11 PoK so that you could hit the +25% skillgain bonus. This bonus is further multiplied by other bonuses: sleep bonus and coc (i.e you have 250% with 100 coc, 375% with sb + 100 coc). the benefit of this is absolutely bafflingly massive in a game all about gaining experience. maybe you'd have higher mining had you done that before.

Edited by RainRain

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My comment about the update was because it sounded like you were saying that the prayer change was a suggestion for an update, not actually set in stone.

 

Regarding making claims about being most active - seriously how do you check that?  I run between 1 and 40 alts and am on from 8am through midnight most days of the week.  But I am not on the same alt all the time.  How do you check that?  I have alts on different computers and different locations, meaning different IP address (before you cry foul, I do not engage in PvP - this is just offloading work to remote servers cause I hate fan noise).  So how do you figure out who is most active?   Pretty silly stance to take.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Platyna said:

 

Ether, I am all for this change, but hold your horses, if you have a choice - grind as a follower and get better gains and grind as a priest and get worse gains, and you pick the first option it isn't abusing the game mechanics, c'mon. It is like you were mad at your dog because it ate a steak not a tomato. 

Exactly!

 

So people who ground channel using links were not abusing a mechanic, they were "eating steak".   Or folks grinding shields using pigs were absolutely not abusing a mechanic, they were "eating steak".

 

One has to draw the line at the absurd, and nuking your faith to grind a priest skill is DEFINITELY not intended.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Etherdrifter said:

One has to draw the line at the absurd, and nuking your faith to grind a priest skill is DEFINITELY not intended.

This is the real dilema. I imagine this wasn't their plan, but when it is done and not blocked by GMs or devs as an exploit, it becomes the top method for skill grind.  Either stick to a personal belief in how it should be played and get nowhere, or use the broken, but legal mechanic to get the job done.

 

For my part, I have long spoken out against the very silly mechanic that is at the root of all of this.  The better our skill gets, the more we have to toss our high end tools and resort to extremely low QL tools to get work done.  Mining with a pickle fork just makes me angry, but it is what the devs built for us.  If I go mine normally, I get no skill and will be a low level miner for life.

 

So if devs make some crazy bass ackwards method for skill gain, either use it or just give up skilling in that area, while pushing hard for a meaningful change.  Obviously you did that with prayer and I for one am grateful it helped :):)  Maybe they will listen to you and fix the rest of the skills?  I'd love to see the death of low QL skillers, once and for all.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

Exactly!

 

So people who ground channel using links were not abusing a mechanic, they were "eating steak".   Or folks grinding shields using pigs were absolutely not abusing a mechanic, they were "eating steak".

 

One has to draw the line at the absurd, and nuking your faith to grind a priest skill is DEFINITELY not intended.


i don't know how you can conclude intent in a game like this. all we can do is look at mechanics, half of which are stupidly design, and figure out the optimal way to grind them. difficulty ALWAYS impacts skillgain, so what else can we conclude when the devs design it so that high faith reduces the difficulty for skillgain?

here's another one for you: The difficulty of blocking an attack is based off the accuracy of your chance to be hit, as well as your defense bonus and shield quality.

Defense bonus is calculated from stance, whether you're moving or not, and your faith bonus.
Chance to be hit is purely CR vs CR

What does this mean?

Grinding shield skill with awful CR (1 fight skill) is easier than grinding at high fight skill.
Grinding shield skill with an awful shield is easier than with a super high quality shield.
Being in faith radius of an altar makes it harder to grind.

Additionally, parrying calculations come AFTER block calculations: IF you ever parry an attack, you don't miss out on a block chance.

When you have too high CR and are high shield skill, the most optimal way to grind is to allow the creature to face your back, while you're standing in water and the creature is on a much higher slope than you, while you're wielding a weapon you can parry easily with (a shortsword, with good skill), while targeting a distant creature so that you don't accidently kill your grinding creature, while using the worst shield possible. Moving around also makes it harder to attack while on normal/aggressive stance, and aggressive stance nukes your block chances overall, so the best way to raise difficulty is to move around while in agg stance.

Also, hilariously, because of the Curve applying to shields, a 1ql shield is around 30ql effectively, which also makes it harder to grind with (which is why some of the above things are necessary). Naturally, raising your difficulty TOO high is also bad for skillgain, so you need to balance these things together.

Is this intended too? If it's not, then why was this specifically made the formula to grind with back during the last update to grinding shield skill? In the past, you could literally just train on horses until 99.

let's also throw in the fact that you stop gaining skill ticks period after attacking the same mob for 15 minutes which doesn't reset for 2 hours or so. This means that on top of all of the above, you also need to make a ring of around 8 creatures to cycle through as you grind.

Edited by RainRain
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, RainRain said:

maybe you dont understand but path leaders only show you people on the same path as you who've hit certain ranks

 

I know it. I can read with understanding. :) I referred to PoL as this is the only one I can check. One person maxed it in a whole, populated old server. It isn't something I would call balanced. No to mention that because grass enchantiing brings a direct profit I can guess it is the most popular path. 

 

27 minutes ago, RainRain said:

to state something simply, you could have grinded up to 70 meditation in about a month or two with little effort on a daily basis

 

I simply can't wait for this argument to appear in any similar discussion. It isn't little effort, it is annoying - setting timers and then walking back and forth like a fool and not getting even 1 skill tick a day is annoying, and I can't call it little effort, it is such a painful disruption of the game play. Some people are more and some people less resistant to this. If they at least removed that need to run back and forth 10 tiles, it would be a big improvement. 

 

23 minutes ago, Wurmhole said:

My comment about the update was because it sounded like you were saying that the prayer change was a suggestion for an update, not actually set in stone.

 

Ah, it might be my wording was poor. I meant this update is BASED on a suggestion that was discussed on the thread that was linked to in the announcement. 

 

23 minutes ago, Wurmhole said:

Regarding making claims about being most active - seriously how do you check that? 

 

I don't, there is no way for me to do so, this is why I tease Wurm staff to check it. ;) Usually I say that I think I am most active or one of most active, but I was being lazy today. 

 

19 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

So people who ground channel using links were not abusing a mechanic, they were "eating steak".   Or folks grinding shields using pigs were absolutely not abusing a mechanic, they were "eating steak".

 

Exactly, and now we get a bigger steak and everyone should live happily ever after. As I said - this change is good, and developers leaning towards player's suggestion is good. 

Edited by Platyna

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Platyna said:

 

I know it. I can read with understanding. :) I referred to PoL as this is the only one I can check. One person maxed it in a whole, populated old server. It isn't something I would call balanced. No to mention that because grass enchantiing brings a direct profit I can guess it is the most popular path. 

 

 

I simply can't wait for this argument to appear in any similar discussion. It isn't little effort, it is annoying - setting timers and then walking back and forth like a fool and not getting even 1 skill tick a day is annoying, and I can't call it little effort, it is such a painful disruption of the game play. Some people are more and some people less resistant to this. If they at least removed that need to run back and forth 10 tiles, it would be a big improvement. 

 

 

Ah, it might be my wording was poor. I meant this update is BASED on a suggestion that was discussed on the thread that was linked to in the announcement. 

 

 

I don't, there is no way for me to do so, this is why I tease Wurm staff to check it. ;) Usually I say that I think I am most active or one of most active, but I was being lazy today. 

 

 

Exactly, and now we get a bigger steak and everyone should live happily ever after. As I said - this change is good, and developers leaning towards player's suggestion is good. 

Making the game easier doesn't make everyone happier. Wurm is a grinding game. It's a game about watching numbers go up. 70 prayer is a hard goal that you set your eyes on. 70 meditation is a long term goal. How fun would the game be if everyone was just given 100 in every skill and told to go play. We'd be bored within a month if not hours. These hard grinds need to be in the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, what is with that picture for the news letter?  Building up against a guard tower?  Don't they cause decay on walls still, if in the tile next to them?  I need to know, because if that mechanic changes, it changes a lot of my building plans.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Wurmhole said:

Also, what is with that picture for the news letter?  Building up against a guard tower?  Don't they cause decay on walls still, if in the tile next to them?  I need to know, because if that mechanic changes, it changes a lot of my building plans.

 

The way I last understood it, buildings do not decay next to guard towers, but fences will....Now that may be out dated, but that is the info I always went off of and I've had no issues in the past myself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Platyna said:

 

I simply can't wait for this argument to appear in any similar discussion. It isn't little effort, it is annoying - setting timers and then walking back and forth like a fool and not getting even 1 skill tick a day is annoying, and I can't call it little effort, it is such a painful disruption of the game play. Some people are more and some people less resistant to this. If they at least removed that need to run back and forth 10 tiles, it would be a big improvement. 

you could just carry a rug with you? that's what a lot of people end up doing when skilling. they only weigh 1.5kg after all, and it minimizes interruptions

5 times a day you plop down your rug and meditate instead of staring at whatever other timer, usually not an issue unless you've been standing in the same place for hours at a time but uhh.... still no effort, you just don't like it. it's fascinating to me that people would sooner prefer to sit down in the same tile for 5 hours straight grinding one skill but as soon as one requires you to spend a few seconds moving 10 tiles to a new spot it's a big deal

and yeah most paths are going to be empty when PoK is such an overwhelmingly better choice as a path for your main character; people end up getting a PoP/PoL up to erupt/enchant on an alt and then never bother going forward, because... there isn't a point in going forward on an alt, and you're only hurting yourself by having a path other than PoK on a main character (on pve servers, obviously pvp servers are different)

i do agree going past 11 is usually a waste (fb/recall home's best uses being basically being abused in pvp servers), and that meditation needs an overhaul, but calling most of the abilities useless/bad/a waste of effort is just wrong lol

Edited by RainRain
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, RainRain said:

you could just carry a rug with you? that's what a lot of people end up doing when skilling. they only weigh 1.5kg after all, and it minimizes interruptions

5 times a day you plop down your rug and meditate instead of staring at whatever other timer, usually not an issue unless you've been standing in the same place for hours at a time but uhh.... still no effort, you just don't like it.

 

It is not 5 times a day, after 5 meditations spaced by 30 minutes you can meditate every 3h. And yes I know I can carry a rug, but so what? I still have to run back and forth, I know about QL, rarity, timers, etc. etc. etc. I know everything I couldn't find or ask, and it doesn't make it any nicer, and it is not any less dead skill, I am 55 of meditation, and honestly I stopped doing the journal because of it. I am everyday getting my meditation affinity on and then when it I think "meh, I am not stopping what I do now and then sit 10 minutes and think what I was up to"). Nah, once i finally get that L70, I am not touching it again, it is a dark side of the Wurm skilling. But well this is my opinion, my assumptions can be easily verified by the dev team, and we kinda went far off-topic...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great updates and thank you for sharing!

Hard work should always be rewarded and you guys deserve a lot of praise!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey, you are all welcome to settle ur disputes about prayers in the Swords and Wine Bar at Black Pearl Exodus (S16). Nice picture, Retrograde.

 

 

 

ValreiInternational.png

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Platyna said:

But well this is my opinion, my assumptions can be easily verified by the dev team, and we kinda went far off-topic...

As of right now, 70 meditating would put you at #600 or so on niarja and 90 would put you at #82, a site that's been running for about 5 years of wurms ~15 years of lifetime and is far from complete due to its opt in nature (i personally know dozens of people with 90+ meditating who aren't on niarja), the actual number would be a couple of times higher than that i'd reckon. Niarja has 2700 uploads in total so about 25% of the playerbase that uses niarja has 70 meditating, which indicates that meditating is something a large portion of players grind, and is one of the most frequent skills in the game to be 70+ in.

 

Just because you personally don't like a skill and you checked the second least popular meditation path for mains behind hate which can't be gotten in pve without weird workarounds doesn't mean the skill is bad, or dead, or however you want to put it, it just means love has 0 reason to go past rank 7 and can easily be put on an alt as enchant grass doesn't require premium to use. And no, just because love can make money doesn't mean it's the most popular, the group of people that actually care about marketing and stuff ingame is a rather small portion of the game, contrary to popular belief.

  • Like 3
  • Cat 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not the only one who doesn't like meditating in its current shape. The best data about it can be found only directly in the player database. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this