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Wurmhole

Rift tagging vs actualy doing some damage and helping

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This has been suggested before I imagine, but it is pretty silly the way it is set up now, to reward those that spend their time targeting as many as possible vs those that stand their ground and actually kill the beasts.  Sadly this system forces everyone to try tagging, so they don't get stuck on the bottom of the lists.  Isn't it possible to collect the data on damage & healing done and rank players that way?  Currently, we have a ranking of who clicks their targeting the most often.  Really bad mechanic.

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Also things like healing don't count at all, so it's limited to begin with :)

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you only need to target 60 mobs for max reward anyways.. after that you can be on the bottom of the list, doesnt matter

 

i personally feel the opposite.. the rifts i did do there were max 3 ppl and we had to kill nearly 300 beasts to clear.. takes 4ever and ever to close a rift, so no one bothers any more. Since then they even added an extra round lol as if that wasnt enough..

Edited by Skatyna

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1 hour ago, Splutty said:

Also things like healing don't count at all, so it's limited to begin with :)

Healing counts, but the nerf (that was required) was a tad too much.

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Personally, I never found out how and whether at all targetting only works, and I have done 120+  (lost count) rifts so far. My experience was and is that I get rift points only when I target opponents, engage in combat, and do damage, all of three, else no rift point which is awarded on death of opponent (also one for every heart sacced). Targetting alone never seemed to yield results, not that I missed it ever. In the older rifts with many participants, I frequently did not get combat slots as the opponents were too crowded.

 

Btw., healers get points, not that I ever resented that, priests are important. A recent nerf seems to have overdone (their should be nerfs on nerfs as it seems 😎). Personally, I get enough with engaging in combat and killing.

Edited by Ekcin
typo

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2 hours ago, Wurmhole said:

This has been suggested before I imagine, but it is pretty silly the way it is set up now, to reward those that spend their time targeting as many as possible vs those that stand their ground and actually kill the beasts.   Sadly this system forces everyone to BE tagging , so they don't get stuck on the bottom of the lists.  Isn't it possible to collect the data on damage & healing done and rank players that way?  Currently, we have a ranking of who clicks their targeting the most often.  Really bad mechanic.

there's no TRY, you DO.. if you want better score, mediocre performance of tagging 60 mobs vs tagging or killing 250.. is significant.. the amount of LOLs you can get comparing the 2 rewards is truly adorable(difference is ~80-something ql 0.26-30kg vs 0.38-0.40kg lump of ql~90-98) #balanced

The good and bad about fixing this is.. everybody will have to use HQ double dipp  elemental weapon, 2hand usually(?).. and switch to defensive shield+LT weapon to stand some ground and recover health... or go back to heal with cotton/farmer's salve.. in case LoFs aren't washing the blood away during the fight.

 

1 hour ago, Splutty said:

Also things like healing don't count at all, so it's limited to begin with :)

 Oh healing is still op.. if you do it often enough.. maybe it's tied to actually patching up wounds.. to get points.. or how many are in proximity of your cast, which ever the case.. you can still overcap and get more points than the possible amount if you tag or kill all rift mobs on your own #wogic #derp #balanced

 

Another derp I realized recently.. was deaths in rifts can literally take a %@*$ on your day and whole event... for one.. you lose FS skill, you lose maybe 7 other skill-gains, maybe you'll die more than once.... but it's sometimes impossible to get your body.. during a wave or between the different rift waves. The event seems to need some sort of it's own solution to retrieve player's body in such cases.. (either getting close to your body.. you aggro mobs and get to escape or get killed again..; you might have a wild or spare horse in the close by camp or your tent/cart/wagon/boat/.... BUT you can not lead it .. you have no rope.., even if you get to be on a horse and run quick through the field.. to pickup your body.. you're completely naked.. and could be easily ganked by karma spells, etc..

Having at 1 or several corners of the rift.. a lodestone or something of the sort.. to interact with it.. and summon your body-bag if it's within the rift's area and rift's not closed.. could turn few ":(" into ":)" even with the skill loss... which is usual tax for not being too careful.

Spoiler

for that one smartass mentioning the karma summon.... the cost for it.. seems excessive.. with the addition that you could die several times during 1 rift because of pc/network/sever or w/e issues.... even for people with tens or hundreds of thousands of karma.. that's still a big buck to pay to pull a body that's just over there... but surrounded by xx creatures.. ready to target or karma gank you if you get close.  

 

--edit

p.s. as another note.. I expected these to eventually turn into improve-able... items.. the shoulder pads.... also get socketing to be a thing for JSmiths... which only had js statuettes for rarity bonus.. and valrei mission completely obliterated the market for that.. JS is just as trash of a skill as it have always been.. no use for hq anything

Will be good to see finally improvement to rift gear in that direction... another thing that might be not entirely right is the cost of trinkets etc.... per rift.. a player can get ~100 or less to 220~ poins.. rarely over.. speaking on average(of course higher and lower participation exists for start to end participating main accounts);  but the cost of some items from the rift shop is.. a bit high.. you need to do quite a few runs to get 1.... currently.. people just buy them from other players.. and that's usually the old trash bulk existing in the 10s to 100s .. of items that players were getting from rifts by rng principle.. when attacking a champ..

Some monitoring about average gain of points... and rebalancing the costs for items.. maybe making them more useful than that are.. could bring them to be more than dead content that nobody ever have to buy and that happens - it's cheaper to pay 50coppers to a random to get it .. right now at least.

Edited by Finnn

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I would not recommend a summon corpse in rift combat. Mostly, the mess clears soon and it is possible to recover the body, especially as horse kills occur rarely nowadays. In old rifts, every abandoned horse was killed and attacked by rift mobs, that has stopped. Horses nowadays only may die from AoE when not mounted, or because they are taunted by rift mobs, mainly by champ beasts, and attack them which is not wise from a horse.

 

Because of some rift fatalities, I always come with a cart (also with my priest who may summon) with spare armour (and the cart horses as reserver mounts). My last rift death though was quite a time ago and occurred due to stupidity, babbling in chat when the WM spent me a visit ;) .

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Didn't healer get the first place on today's massive rift on Harmony?

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40 minutes ago, Vessel said:

Didn't healer get the first place on today's massive rift on Harmony?

Actually yes.  I did not know that healing counted at all, so I'm pleased about that.  But, while casting LoF, it is pretty easy to click away on targets.  I honestly don't even know if just targeting counts, or you have to take a swing to get a point.  Either way is the same result.

 

If what Skatyna says is correct: "you only need to target 60 mobs for max reward anyways.. after that you can be on the bottom of the list, doesnt matter"  then we should change the mechanics of the score board to list all those at 60+ as: "Wurmhole MAX (60+, champ, super duper contributor, or whatever you want to call it) and no escalating number that makes people want to keep trying to beat it.

 

This would leave the first wave a little clicky still, but people would quickly realize there isn't any point to it and the desire is now wholly focused on cooperation, to put the enemy into the grave as quickly as possible.

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As a first time rift attender: This is just too much. Three hours of non-stop fighting with unspoken rules like this tagging.

 

I don't even know what to say about the points shop. I can't look at any of the shoulderpads?

And apparently I will have to do 2-3 more rifts to get even one of the nice sounding shoulderpads. Right now I can't even imagine doing one more. I guess I was hoping for more tangible rewards after such an insane slugfest.

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1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

I would not recommend a summon corpse in rift combat. Mostly, the mess clears soon and it is possible to recover the body, especially as horse kills occur rarely nowadays. In old rifts, every abandoned horse was killed and attacked by rift mobs, that has stopped. Horses nowadays only may die from AoE when not mounted, or because they are taunted by rift mobs, mainly by champ beasts, and attack them which is not wise from a horse.

 

Because of some rift fatalities, I always come with a cart (also with my priest who may summon) with spare armour (and the cart horses as reserver mounts). My last rift death though was quite a time ago and occurred due to stupidity, babbling in chat when the WM spent me a visit ;) .

I believe.. that things could be done in a better way not requiring 2 premiums, carts, spare mounts, ropes, armors, and grinding on a priest to be able to summon, parking it just outside of the rift.. as safety net

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2 hours ago, Nordlys said:

Healing counts, but the nerf (that was required) was a tad too much.

Priests still can pull a number higher than highest tag count a non-priest can pull, no matter what kind of ninja 'you' are to try and tag them all.

The balance is not exactly.. there.. it was seriously nerfed yes.. old priests were able to pull 1000-1500+ points per rift.. where not-priest was at best .. by tagging all getting ~220.. average players hardly reach 100 points of participation at rifts.

*priests as in.. heals(can double/tripple/etc dip on points with multiple heals or it seems that way with the amount of points possible to aquire; tentacles, ice/lava etc.. from the variety of karma and aoe spells do also tag a mob 1x, which is ok.. and not.. as it passively lets you tag a cluster*@&$ with 1 'move'

 

 

  

3 hours ago, Skatyna said:

you only need to target 60 mobs for max reward anyways.. after that you can be on the bottom of the list, doesnt matter

 

i personally feel the opposite.. the rifts i did do there were max 3 ppl and we had to kill nearly 300 beasts to clear.. takes 4ever and ever to close a rift, so no one bothers any more. Since then they even added an extra round  lol as if that wasnt enough..

LOL indeed

As in 'need' you can go to rifts.. and tag 1 mob.. to show in the participation list.. you need 30 points from tagging/killing/healing/sacrificing hearts to get journal entry +1, the 60 points just give you slightly higher ql and weight on that moon metal lump, the more points you get .. the higher the ql can go.. same for the metal lump, haven't seen one to go past 0.4kg(at best have seen something like 0.3995 or similar from ~230-250 participation points)

 

from the wiki:

Quote

Players with more than 60 participation (phenomenal) rank will tend to receive less random lump quality levels and weights. Instead, they will generally receive lump quantities, qualities, and weights based on that rank with much less swing toward randomness.
https://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Rift#Ranking.2C_Rewards

 

Edited by Finnn

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1 hour ago, Josso said:

As a first time rift attender: This is just too much. Three hours of non-stop fighting with unspoken rules like this tagging.

welcome to rifts, some people think doing this 100 times is a reasonable journal goal lmao

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1 hour ago, Wurmhole said:

If what Skatyna says is correct: "you only need to target 60 mobs for max reward anyways.. after that you can be on the bottom of the list, doesnt matter"  then we should change the mechanics of the score board to list all those at 60+ as: "Wurmhole MAX (60+, champ, super duper contributor, or whatever you want to call it) and no escalating number that makes people want to keep trying to beat it.

more points after 60 increases rift mat amount+ql and gives extra points for the rift store thing, the rift mats caps out at 20 super high ql at 500 points iirc

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

more points after 60 increases rift mat amount+ql and gives extra points for the rift store thing, the rift mats caps out at 20 super high ql at 500 points iirc

OR, please. I have participated in a few rifts since January 2018 (something over 120 iirc, might be more). But that tagging rumour is what I only heard, never could corroborate much less prove. Granted, "rift points" only count in the way like today since Jackal start (for the rift shop) and only since then (some time ago as well) I am checking my participation thoroughly (is "phenomenal" every time but so what).

 

When I only tag a mob (I could tag all 500 to 900 during a fight), nothing happens. When I tag and attack, still nothing happens. When I tag, attack, and the mob dies, either I dealt damage, then my participation count goes up, or not. If I failed to deal damage, typically because I did not get an attack slot during a crowded rift (crowded by players not mobs :) ), or the mob dies before i hit, I get nothing, the mob dies, next mob.

 

Maybe I missed something. But if I did, others did too. And those spreading the word about tagging x mobs do not seem to be the ones who really fight in rift combat. Which cannot be said from you or Madnath. So kindly explain.

Edited by Ekcin

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13 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

But that tagging rumour is what I only heard, never could corroborate much less prove

You have to have it targeted within a few minutes of it dying and be within 4 tiles of it when it dies (this is why archery/aoe spell spamming often doesn't give points), not much else. i used to tag on alts and it worked just fine, got 100+ points on 1fs alts with no weapons plenty of times. maybe they changed it idk, rifts aren't good enough for me to warrant testing how they work, i just afk slap mobs when i go to them

 

14 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

Maybe I missed something. But if I did, others did too. And those spreading the word about tagging x mobs do not seem to be the ones who really fight in rift combat. Which cannot be said from you or Madnath. So kindly explain.

i never said a single thing about tagging, this was my first post in this thread and I was explaining how points to rewards work. I've done plenty of rifts in the past to know how they work, and so has madnath (he's not even in this thread why is he being brought up)

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18 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

OR, please. I have participated in a few rifts since January 2018 (something over 120 iirc, might be more). But that tagging rumour is what I only heard, never could corroborate much less prove. Granted, "rift points" only count in the way like today since Jackal start (for the rift shop) and only since then (some time ago as well) I am checking my participation thoroughly (is "phenomenal" every time but so what).

 

When I only tag a mob (I could tag all 500 to 900 during a fight), nothing happens. When I tag and attack, still nothing happens. When I tag, attack, and the mob dies, either I dealt damage, then my participation count goes up, or not. If I failed to deal damage, typically because I did not get an attack slot during a crowded rift (crowded by players not mobs :) ), or the mob dies before i hit, I get nothing, the mob dies, next mob.

 

Maybe I missed something. But if I did, others did too. And those spreading the word about tagging x mobs do not seem to be the ones who really fight in rift combat. Which cannot be said from you or Madnath. So kindly explain.

If you swing at a mob you get more participation, dont need to hit it - a miss will also count towards points. And ive seen alot more mats and higher ql when getting more points.

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Travel 2 hours to reach rift, fight 3 hours, travel 2 hours back.

 

7 hour day right there unless someone ports you in.

 

Healing is expensive in terms of materials, but it's nice to help folks.  I just wish mundane healing gave some kind of credit rather than only magical healing doing so.

 

If you're applying cotton to the wounds of other people INSIDE the rift area, you're helping.  Want a nice way of avoiding issues?  Make it only count if someone has a different IP.

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8 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

You have to have it targeted within a few minutes of it dying and be within 4 tiles of it when it dies (this is why archery/aoe spell spamming often doesn't give points), not much else. i used to tag on alts and it worked just fine, got 100+ points on 1fs alts with no weapons plenty of times. maybe they changed it idk, rifts aren't good enough for me to warrant testing how they work, i just afk slap mobs when i go to them

 

i never said a single thing about tagging, this was my first post in this thread and I was explaining how points to rewards work. I've done plenty of rifts in the past to know how they work, and so has madnath (he's not even in this thread why is he being brought up)

First, thanks a lot, and a happy new year. And no you did not say anything about tagging here, but I recalled that you mentioned that tagging still works, either in some thread, or in chat. Hence my question as I was sure that you did not mention that just from hearsay.

 

From what you explained it does not seem such an easy way to score points. And still I am fairly sure not to have gotten one when attacking a mob and have it dying before I scored a hit with damage. And the method you described would certainly be deadly for everybody with less experience. Most time not the mob attacked is fatal or close to deadly, but those around. Especially, the packs of doggies are extremely dangerous, taking turns taunting, ruining your focus,  and each of them frequently doing some damage. I more often run from them with nearly no health left than from every other rift mob.

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10 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

Travel 2 hours to reach rift, fight 3 hours, travel 2 hours back.

 

7 hour day right there unless someone ports you in.

 

Healing is expensive in terms of materials, but it's nice to help folks.  I just wish mundane healing gave some kind of credit rather than only magical healing doing so.

 

If you're applying cotton to the wounds of other people INSIDE the rift area, you're helping.  Want a nice way of avoiding issues?  Make it only count if someone has a different IP.

easy to rig.. with an alt on other pc.. virtual one.. or tunneled connection for a process.. rush in.. get damage.. get out.. start healing, ESPECIALLY FUN if you just afk and take 1000 tiny bits of damage of cold/burn aoe from the rift casters, all one needs than to farm points with this is some woa high ql cotton and to clap with hands and feet as that meter reaches the moon.

 

Not saying anything about the materials costs for healing.. for the obvious reason, it's true.. but there should be some kind of balance for the effort mashing keys

 

Tanking in a rift is also a no-win scenario.. you get 1 point for that 1 mob you tanked.. or the 2-3-5 that you're tanking.. at the moment, at the moment of their death, but around you .. 15-20mobs have died.. and you're stuck there sponging punches from several mobs.. so they wont attack other people with lower ql armor or less skills who wont do that well tanking rift creature's damage.  Again.. if this is made to get more points.. easy to rig.. get hq shield.. mediocre def stance and go in with defensive stance.. get out to pull aggro and stand your ground.. watch rift points fly again..

 

 

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Once more: Having participated in a few rift combats, and of course watched the outcome in /rifts, I cannot say that I observed a single outcome I felt outright injust, or pointing towards someone cheating. All these scenarios appear highly hypothetic to me. I watched priests getting most points most times, but did not find anything to object about. After all they are doing a service to all fighters, especially when healing. And I would not object manual healing being rewarded as well.

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Posted (edited)

I remember early on hearing allies talking about this tagging as many as you can thing. It didn't make sense to me, so even if it did work that way I never tried it, for me there is no point in being there if you are just doing that. I realize the addition of the insane journal goal makes folks willing to try it maybe but no thanks, if it actually does work that way I see it as a bug that should be fixed. If I go to a rift and at any point go back to the sidelines its because of needing a rl break for some reason, I'm not stood there targetting mobs and leaving others to kill them and suffer the damage, what a croc. So basically agree with the OP but would also like some official confirmation this is actually reality and not wurm rumor.

 

ps never knew anything about bandaging your wounds counting either, priests healing I didn't know about getting points until others started complaining about them getting 'unfair' points for it. Sometimes not knowing what 'everyone knows' is helpful to sleeping well at night

Edited by Tilda
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1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

Once more: Having participated in a few rift combats, and of course watched the outcome in /rifts, I cannot say that I observed a single outcome I felt outright injust, or pointing towards someone cheating. All these scenarios appear highly hypothetic to me. I watched priests getting most points most times, but did not find anything to object about. After all they are doing a service to all fighters, especially when healing. And I would not object manual healing being rewarded as well.

I'm sure you can remember a few abuses of player findings about certain things not working as they are supposed to through the years, you've heard about 1-2... I'm just mentioning old/existing and possible new scenarios that can happen if they are poorly implemented upon requests to make specific actions to give rift points.

 

I've spoken at least 2 times in old threads about the tagging(or slapping) of a mob.. to get points... we were assured that it's removed and NOT a thing by devs or staff at the time, sure.. when you do ask about balance and a fix to something and you keep getting ignored, you stop talking about it when you see nobody cares to fix it. It harms nobody besides the people who never care to get better points or learn how rifts work(I still have no clue what rift turrets do besides the WM healing and shooting players but I don't care.. I go murder and butcher them for the loot), rewards are the same every rift.. no excitement for anything, old mechanic used to give you rift trinket as reward for top x spots or by rng to people in participation list... I took a break from the game at some point.. returned to .. rifts with 1 extra wave, no trinket drops in any way.. only cooking recipes(these are useless and so common..) from champions by rng.. and the quite expensive items in rift shop.

 

There's nothing hypothetic about tagging or old abuse to get insane points at rifts, odd bit is nobody ever bothered to share screenshots of the best laughable results after a rift, until the last nerf to LoF results in a thread like this one.. asking for some kind of balance because things were clearly not right.

 

Getting high count does not mean that you have to "do nothing", you can run through the 10-30 mobs in front line(careful to not aggro other(really important part)) and help to clear them 1 by 1.. focusing on being in the focus group(you can spot certain people ganking in a group champion or normal mob.. but more people attacking same target, join these.. they chew through the rift and things go smoother), you see an ogre.. go taunt it and turn it's back to the big group so they do more damage or cause it more often, while the ogre attacks with only front aoe attacks.. it hits only you, rest of the team does not need heals as often.. you heal back with your lt weapon and key element is having many people ganking the ogre.. it's barely able to attack you while being ganked.

Places not to be.. on cold/burn aoe ground stacks such an insane amount of tiny wounds.. you'd spend 3-5 minutes healing on the side rather than gathering points or being useful at rifts.. aoe just puts you into afk on the side .. unless LoF helps you with the aoe massive heal by amounts rather than 1-by-1 heals every 3-5seconds....... for 40++ wounds

 

@Tildaafaik bandaging doesn't count, but never tested that..(many people heal themselves with cotton.. you do not see many with 150+ participation.. clear give away that this is not a thing), it's just tagging with a hit or try to hit.. and heal or aoe spells priest or karma casts that does the 'tagging', additionally you get +1 points per sacrificed heart between the waves

 

Just to get journal done.. go get 30 points however you can.. go out of the rift.. get home and carry on doing what you were that day.. you'll get +1 journal entry.. and not waste an hour or 4.. for something that's neither entertaining nor giving you something you need... just to get a cape.. after receiving the maddness stamp (cape) for doing 100 rifts. (sadly this includes wasting 1-2 hours traveling or more.. depending how and to where you have to travel to reach the rift spot.. even getting to the event is close to wasting half a player's day😑)

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 if u no what u doing 1 hr to rift and 1 hr home , u can do the home journey next rl day , allways have a spare rope in u tent if u die grab rope first get u horse then u can get body and easily carry out of danger zone, as for the points side iv found if i try kill mobs on own i get bugger all points if i hit everything everyone else is hitting in group i seem to get more points, i miss the days were u needed falmers salve for internal damages and the uncertainy of not healing the wound which used to grow .now days its just a oversized hit u dead by burn damage sometimes unfairly.i also think the healers get to much points for healing , im flat out running 100 points these guys are 0n 240 and theres still a wave togo they can sit in pens do nothing as they do , id like to see wm die in the deal of getting your points people to lazy take the easy way out every time now. prob put back to 3 waves for the critics but more creatures 1st wave , are we working on any new creature for rifts be nice to, and last tentacles are annoying as orge carrying ,why looks silly 

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, christopher said:

... these guys are 0n 240 and theres still a wave togo they can sit in pens do nothing as they do , ...

 

Wait, what? 

Okay, first - thank you to everyone posting here with their rifting experiences. There have been a TON of one sentence here, one throw away comment there, that I HAD NO IDEA. Granted, I know I needed to do more research, but I went into my first rift knowing basically NONE of this stuff. I already have a laundry list of things to know / things to do differently...

I'm a healer-type (as many already know) - so my goals at the end of the day are typically focused on being a support member of a team. It 100% absolutely NEVER occurred to me that I would stand around away from the combat protected behind a fence, when my team was in active combat. How are you supposed to heal a person if you're not standing at their shoulder on the battlefield?  (how could you sleep at night knowing that you stayed in safety while your companions put themselves at risk of death??)

And bandages don't register participation? ... You mean to tell me that the points I scored at that rift only came from the little bit of melee fighting I did to help down stuff, between running around trying to help heal?? I just figured it was because I was bandage-healing instead of spell-healing, so it was taking an enormous amount of time to select wounds to heal bc I'm super slow with menus (even when abilities, themselves, are on hotkeys) - and I'm utter rubbish at manual targeting in games that use action combat systems (instead of auto-target or tab target or using smart heals). 

.... but still, all that can be labeled "now you know" and hand-waved aside.... but I'm still utterly flabbergasted at the idea of healers waiting for the wounded to come back to them, instead of the able-bodied healers occupying the mid-to-back line of combat so they can run *forward* to their injured teammates, or just constantly stay within spell range to sling heals throughout the battles. 

Can a fellow healer-type please explain Wurm's healing modality to me?  
(In the meantime, Imma go dig into the wurmpedia to look into the finer details I'd only glanced over prior to now)

Edited by Amata

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