Bloodreina

Uniques penning and private killings

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Just popping in here, remember to keep things civil :)

-Gawain, SFM

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Posting in a dragon thread

 

Ideas here, like cluster merging, will only serve to dilute the problem, or simply spread it. And it looks like there's been two recent successive posts that read like they're asking us to be grateful that the private slayers would see fit to invite us lowly peasants.

 

For a large part we have the ability, as a community, to minimize the damage of these public slayers and global snatchers. 

 

They're controlling the global casts? I've created a public use organizing sheet which has seen zero signups at any point from people in NFI. Such a tool can allow people who need the goal to co-ordinate with others who need it - from there, a handful of people watching for the cast to be ready, and others willing to get the ball rolling and contacting people, is all it takes to wrestle the control back from people snatching it, and get your goals done.

 

I've spoken before on how the idea of superordinate goals could be used by the devs to lower toxicity around uniques but that feels like talking to a brick wall, so now I'm going to talk more about how you can disrupt the private slayers in our current environment.

Uniques roll a 4% (1/300 for every unique not currently alive) chance to spawn every 6 hours of uptime, or every server restart. Hard to know when one spawned, but when they died isn't a bad metric. Server says [21:28:57] The server has been up 6 hours. and the last slaying was over 2 weeks ago? Then buckle down because it's search time!

 

Search rift sites you know of. This will catch an alarming number of uniques. Per the Unique Hunting Etiquette already posted, there's good protections should you find one. Familiarize yourself with those rules. You should not be searching alone - make friends, this is a social game, divvy up the server and the times you're searching, and have a plan for when you find one. Yelling "it's here" in freedom is fine - I've been known to do that too when the penning gets too tough, it's a functional enough public slay.

 

Beating the greed of these people takes organizing. Unionize with your fellow Wurmians, and strike back.

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18 minutes ago, Stanlee said:

Beating the greed of these people takes organizing.

 

Greed, really ?

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25 minutes ago, Pnutp said:

Go out and put in the 100s of hours that he has into hunting unique and then maybe you can lock them down for yourself, or make them all Public... your choice... Don't get salty, be grateful you got an invite at all as you was not entitled to one!

I have no dog in this fight.  I am located an easy sail from Bruce's Flying Circus and have never been to a public slaying, because the of timezones.

 

That said.  Either a) you didn't read the account above about that slaying or b) the account is wildly innaccurate, or c) ?? (It really is starting to sound like some kind of virtual gangland up there in NFI).  Based on the account "The Group" (for want of a more concise tag) was invited to help with an already-located dragon and proceeded to kite it away from the people already in the process of penning it, and then you are telling one of those people "be grateful you got an invite at all as you was not entitled to one."

 

Not so long ago I apologized for using the term "NFI entitlement attitude" but between this issue here (of a group taking over by whatever means slayings and throwing their weight around regarding who is "entitled" to stay) or the faith swapping and rites thing, I think that the root cause does seem to be a core group of some sort treating the servers as their personal fiefdom.  It seems to be within allowable mechanics, though, so all I can offer is a) I am GLAD the cluster's aren't technically compatible, because they certainly aren't socially compatible if this is normal for NFI and b) if you don't think it's normal or acceptable then bite the bullet and come enjoy some Southern hospitality.  

 

 

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3 minutes ago, TheTrickster said:

I have no dog in this fight.  I am located an easy sail from Bruce's Flying Circus and have never been to a public slaying, because the of timezones.

 

That said.  Either a) you didn't read the account above about that slaying or b) the account is wildly innaccurate, or c) ?? (It really is starting to sound like some kind of virtual gangland up there in NFI).  Based on the account "The Group" (for want of a more concise tag) was invited to help with an already-located dragon and proceeded to kite it away from the people already in the process of penning it, and then you are telling one of those people "be grateful you got an invite at all as you was not entitled to one."

 

Not so long ago I apologized for using the term "NFI entitlement attitude" but between this issue here (of a group taking over by whatever means slayings and throwing their weight around regarding who is "entitled" to stay) or the faith swapping and rites thing, I think that the root cause does seem to be a core group of some sort treating the servers as their personal fiefdom.  It seems to be within allowable mechanics, though, so all I can offer is a) I am GLAD the cluster's aren't technically compatible, because they certainly aren't socially compatible if this is normal for NFI and b) if you don't think it's normal or acceptable then bite the bullet and come enjoy some Southern hospitality.  

 

 

If you read the situation, he was second there and NOT the finder. The FINDER sold the dragon! that's not the problem of the buyer lol they didn't pull the dragon from anyone,  they brought the dragon, making it theirs to do what they want with... I am not even in the group so only going off the situation, he was NOT entitled to be there, so why be so salty?

 

My problem is when it comes to Private slayings I don't think people truly understand the effort that goes into it... What Stanley has quoted above is no secret and I would always tell people all of the above when asked. That being said I have spent over 40hrs in the last 2 weeks alone, looking for a unique. Its not a case that they just find us without us even leaving deed. Not only that, when any humanoid is found, Public slayings are organised and take time and effort.

 

I am not saying the mechanics of how scale/drake works is not skewed, but with the way it currently works you are NEVER going to stop private slayings. Even people who have never killed a Unique are capable of penning and/are killing within an alliance and always will. 

 

On the flip... I am also one trying to help with the rites and organising and trying to sync for the wider community and ALWAYS facilitate anyone wanting it for the Journal. This has no bearing on me as I spend most of my time on PvP getting SB for Depot/Chests/Mobs yet I still try to help and co-ordinate as people seem to message me whenever they see they are ready, of course I also want to try and maximise the SB available to me.. Is that selfish? bully like attitude? Greedy? or is it just a case of people don't always understand and your never going to please everyone in a community driven game!

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18 minutes ago, Pnutp said:

On the flip... I am also one trying to help with the rites and organising and trying to sync for the wider community and ALWAYS facilitate anyone wanting it for the Journal. This has no bearing on me as I spend most of my time on PvP getting SB for Depot/Chests/Mobs yet I still try to help and co-ordinate as people seem to message me whenever they see they are ready, of course I also want to try and maximise the SB available to me.. Is that selfish? bully like attitude? Greedy? or is it just a case of people don't always understand and your never going to please everyone in a community driven game!

This!!!

 

Pnut and I aren't trying to 'control' the global casts.  We try to spread them out so the most number of people can benefit.  Also, a clear schedule lets people who need the cast for Benediction know when it's happening and allows them to participate, rather then just posting over Freedom, getting 4 or 5 people together and casting.  How does anybody  get bene credit that way?  better be watching Freedom chat all the time.  Very few people mainline a priest, and if your main isn't a priest, and you're not swapping faiths to benefit from as much free SB as you can....why not?  There are very few reasons not to, and the free sleep bonus is significant.

 

Also, as a side note, why do Pnut and I only hear about the rites being ready after they've been ready for a week or better?  If people were to let us know RIGHT AWAY (or better yet, organize a casting themselves right away... honestly most of the reason Pnut and I try to organize these casts is because nobody else steps up) everything would not get so bunched up

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Pnutp said:

The FINDER sold the dragon!

 

Yeah, this is important to note.  Slaying groups aren't the only ones who like silver.  

 

Always better to reserve judgment when you're only hearing one side of the story.  OP may not even have known that this was what went down. 

 

 

Edited by Minnie
Edit: Actually rereading the thread, I see that OP did know. I guess I just imagined that info was not presented because if it were known that it was basically a business deal agreed to by both parties, it's kind of hard to see the harm? I dunno.
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Does any of this apply to Xanadu?

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14 minutes ago, Pnutp said:

The FINDER sold the dragon! that's not the problem of the buyer lol they didn't pull the dragon from anyone,  they brought the dragon, making it theirs to do what they want with... I am not even in the group so only going off the situation, he was NOT entitled to be there, so why be so salty?

Saying the buyer was within rights to pull the dragon away is one thing, but to say that because they bought the right they therefore didn't pull it away makes no sense.  This player was helping the finder, and was in the process of penning it when someone else (apparently through a separate transaction with the finder) kites the beast to another location to pen it.  Is is surprising that this player is not happy with that?  Saying "you are not entitled to be here" is hugely impolite if nothing else.  This person was aiding in good faith and for that got/gets treated like a dog at the dinner table; even to now being told that they should be grateful for such treatment - and it is apparently a mystery why they are not.

 

Also; buying the rights to a dragon is NOT putting in 100s of hours hunting.  Those are two entirely different things.  I have no problem with someone who does put in the time and effort having earned the right to keep or share as they see fit, but to invoke that time and effort when the beasty has been bought is disingenuous. 

 

(I did say that one of the options was that the account was inaccurate, btw).

 

I can't say if it is a function of the small cluster size or the "vibe" of NFI, but I don't see these complaints coming up all the time on SFI.  We have regular public events, and I have no idea how many private events (and I wouldn't, would I?).    It could be size, it could be maturity, it could be something else, but there is definitely some social dynamic going on with which I am grateful to be uninvolved.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, TheTrickster said:

I can't say if it is a function of the small cluster size or the "vibe" of NFI, but I don't see these complaints coming up all the time on SFI.  We have regular public events, and I have no idea how many private events (and I wouldn't, would I?).    It could be size, it could be maturity, it could be something else, but there is definitely some social dynamic going on with which I am grateful to be uninvolved.

 

That's the good point, we have a good amount of public slayings, some private events and some semi-privates. On Deliverance, our group is open to anyone (in good faith) that want to hunt the darn things and spend times on it, with a variant of the classic GDKP to reward all the members of the group who searched and not just a few randomly like it happens in so many groups. As Stanlee said, we kinda unionised and that was since years now and I'd recommend others people to do the same.

Public fights are nice and all, but the rewards are low and unless you travel to all of them, you will never get the chance to make a set for yourself. I strongly believe that the way is for every server citizens to deal with their own uniques the way they see fit ( if possible in a friendly spirit and a way that help everyone achieve their goals).

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5 hours ago, Stanlee said:

there's been two recent successive posts that read like they're asking us to be grateful that the private slayers would see fit to invite us lowly peasants.

 

For a large part we have the ability, as a community, to minimize the damage of these public slayers and global snatchers. 

 

Beating the greed of these people takes organizing. Unionize with your fellow Wurmians, and strike back.

I cannot tell which part of your messages are sarcasm or satire..however I agree, the more players making private slay groups and hunting to kill privately would be amazing for Wurms unique market.

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From what i understand:

Person A and B was searching dragons, Person A found a dragon and committed one of these actions within range of the unique. Person A became 100% owner of the dragon. Person A asked Person B to help Person A pen the dragon. 


Later, Person A sold the dragons to Person C. Person C became 100% owner of the dragon. Person C invited his group Person D and E to have a private slay. If Person B want to get invited into Person C private slay, Person B have to follow the conditions 1st, 2nd, 3rd. Person B complained Person C should invited to the private slay without any conditions or an more reasonable conditions because Person B helped Person C to close the new cave up. 


Person A and C were the 100% owner of dragon. They have every rights to invite people or not and sell the dragon or not. Person A sold the dragon, Person B don't have any rights to slay it without Person C invited, because Person C is the 100% new owner, no matter Person B help Person C to close the new cave up or not. That's the mechanic of slaying unique. 

 

But when the things that whether its a fair trade or not, its discussable.
First, I don't know if Person A had discussed with Person B before Person A sold the dragon, Person A should do that because Person B was helping to search dragons. Person A and Person B should have an agreement before sold the dragon even though Person A are the one who have 100% right to sell the dragon. I don't know even know if Person B got the part of silvers from Person A sold dragons to Person C. If not, i don't know why Person B want to search dragons again with Person A.


Second, I don't know if Person C asked Person B to help closing the new cave up or not after Person C was the 100% owner. I assume Person C have asked Person B to help closing the cave up because Person B couldn't do it without the NEW DEED permission controlled by Person C(the Person C slaying group came in and moved it further away and made a new cave for it). 

So, according to the assumption, Person B helped Person C to secured the dragon by closing the new cave up when Person C 100% owned the dragon.

The question is, is it nice that Person C required Person B to constraint Person B to 1 toon and pay 10s to get an invite after Person B helped person C to close the new cave up? 

 

Did Person C do anything wrong? No, Person C didn't do anything wrong because Person C 100% owned the dragon and got every rights to invited people or not.
Did Person C suggest a fair trade for Person B? Discussable.
Can Person A tell us ur part of story? Interested.

This situation is like PC on trade chat, Is the dirt 0.01s/k or should be 100s/k. Discussable.

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8 hours ago, Ajala said:

Does any of this apply to Xanadu?

Only the hints from Stanlee how to find a dragon :) .  The rest is inter NFI spat. And I still think a cluster merge would heal a lot of that bitterness.

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Just two points: I am not sure about that "selling a dragon" thing. It is not against the rules, as the finder right is considered transferrable if I understood Enki's text right, but sounds bit fishy though. Given the market prices of blood, scale, and possible tome etc. on NFI, 150s is not overpriced at all, and demanding 10s from the participants is certainly no ripoff. I recall that a red dragon blood sold at 12s on NFI last year (may be less now). 

 

But second, about private slayings: Given that there is a unique on NFI more often than weekly (20 slayings in less than 19 weeks in 2022), 9 of them public, there is not really a lack of slayings, or the uniques monopolized by greedy slayers. And it also does not speak for overly sense of entitlement and selfishness. Yet private slayings have both a drawback, limiting bloods, and an advantage, limiting dispersion of tiny hide/scale parts into player thesauri where they tend to stay for a long time, sometimes vanish with the leaving player. Not that this solves the scarcity of scale and hide on NFI.

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Just piping in:

 

[10:30:14] <XXXXXX> (Mel) WTS Blue Dragon Scale (0.62kg - 150S)

 

That is from just now. When so much money is involved, you know why the discussion is so heated on NFI.

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just to give a different perspective, make them easier to pen again, they way they used to be, making penning them harder or impossible just means more time or money investment to trap one or hold it by whatever means are still allowed if they are made impossible to trap so the harder they are to trap the more of an incentive to keep them private.

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Posted (edited)

I am against any activism. Unique slaying, both public and private (and "semi private" or spontaneous which happens fairly often in SFI), is working, and is fairly balanced. The unique netiquette seems to be working properly, no matter whether one likes or dislikes marketing of slaying slots during private slayings.

 

I fear unique slayings to be harmed by any hasty and panicky changes. I fail to see serious unique problems in SFI. The problems in NFI, as Bekador rightly pointed out, stem from scarcity of unique materials, scale and hide in particular. For that, there is no reasonable solution other than cluster merge. No change of penning, spawning, trapping will change that.

Edited by Ekcin
addendum
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Posted (edited)

I honestly have very little interest in the loot aspect of slayings, believe me I would love to have a Dragon skull to show off but I've accepted at this stage its out of my reach.

 

I still take an interest in slayings however as I see them as good opportunities to bring the community together. On NFI especially we are desperately in need of more events that breathe some life into the community and get people working together and meeting new people. I understand there are other incentives for private slayings at work here, but from a community perspective I just see it as a wasted opportunity to give a few hundred people a fun and positive experience in the game. Theres also all the trade interaction afterwards, I realize the more of these items in circulation the lower they will be in value but maybe a new player joining in a slaying could sell the blood they got and pay their upkeep for a couple more months?

 

I don't think changing the current system is the answer, its too late its already been in place too long. But maybe there could be new "boss" creatures that do give benefits to larger groups killing them? I realize we have Rifts in the game already but with the length and timing of these its not always practical. I would welcome a larger variety in events that bring people together more frequently.

 

Edit: Just to be clear on this I'm just trying to offer a different perspective. For the reasons above I would like to see more public slayings but can understand why people do choose to keep them private, thats their choice and as long as its done within the rules then its all fair.

 

1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

I fear unique slayings to be harmed by any hasty and panicky changes. I fail to see serious unique problems in SFI. The problems in NFI, as Bekador rightly pointed out, stem from scarcity of unique materials, scale and hide in particular. For that, there is no reasonable solution other than cluster merge. No change of penning, spawning, trapping will change that.

 

As much as I would want to see it happen we know a cluster merge is not going to happen in the foreseeable future so its not really a workable solution.

 

 

Edited by HawkHawk
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Unique drama, in MY forum? 

 

I like when the private slayers get offended at being called out for greed

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Uniques respawn and everyone is free to hunt them and host fights however they want, as long as they're not being dongs about it. Most of us are in agreement about that part, since it’s explicitly stated in the rules. There are, however, several areas where people have wildly differing opinions on the matter: And you can't force people to act like how you want them to. Maybe stating your opinions will change someone’s mind – But a change in the game mechanics is most likely the only thing that will really cause a change.
 

It's very easy for people to just go "Oh but what I am doing is according to the rules, that means no one has the right to be upset with me or call me 'greedy'". It's an easy way of just generalizing ALL problems related to uniques. It also muddles the discussion by way of trivializing the problem and instead making it seem like a personal attack. But let's be less general about the workings of unique handling and actually look at some scenarios from a less biased point of view. Obviously no one is immune to bias, but I’ll at least try to bring some nuance to it.
 

Internal are the arguments that might come from within a group that found and/or penned a hypothetical unique. External is how it affects players outside of that group.
 

Scenario 1 – Private slaying with no outsiders

Internal: It’s a good way of having fun with your friends. Local won’t become full of people, and both the FPS and the loot awarded will reflect this. Everyone in the group will get a chance at a loot roll (depending of course on the distribution politics of the group). They’re the ones that searched for and penned the unique, so it makes sense they’d be the ones to share the loot.

External: It excludes people: Both from the fight and from the chance at the loot roll. But more than anything it excludes people from the blood and scale/hide pool that everyone is included in for being in local.

Main issues with Scenario 1:

A dozen or so slayings of this kind won’t really affect anyone – It’s not like anyone’s entitled to kill a dragon, and they will respawn. The problem is that once people start doing the private slayings they oftentimes keep doing them, and become increasingly good at finding and penning the uniques. Everyone technically has equal opportunity to hunt them down, but in reality the difficulty of finding them increases with each private slaying. The more data the private hunters collect the less likely the general public is of figuring that stuff out. And let’s be real here: The potions the blood make are some of the most useful items in the game, and cornering the market would be insanely profitable.

 

Scenario 2 – Public slaying, Private loot rolls

Internal: Everyone in the group will get a chance at a loot roll (depending of course on the distribution politics of the group). They’re the ones that searched for and penned the unique, so it makes sense they’d be the ones to share the loot. It’s a fun event that will benefit everyone attending, and bring people together.

External: It excludes people from the loot roll, but includes them in the blood and scale/hide pool. Gives people an opportunity to be part of a community event, and see a unique up close.

Main issues with Scenario 2:

Everyone will be awarded scale/hide when it drops – But usually of a really low weight, since the number of people attending affects this. For people who are trying to gather enough to create armour this will make it a really slow process. The External group will also be very aware of the fact that they are not included in the loot roll for the valuable items the unique drops, and some will resent the Internal group for it. This can, over time, turn into a really toxic relationship where the External group feels like they’re being given the leftovers. Whereas the Internal group might feel like they put a disproportionate amount of effort into hunting, and paying for the slaying deeds, only to be yelled at for it.

 

Scenario 3 – Public slaying, Public loot rolls

Internal: It’s a fun event that will benefit everyone attending, and bring people together. Everyone has the same chance at winning a loot roll as the External group has.

External: Everyone is included in the blood and scale/hide pool, as well as the loot roll. Gives people an opportunity to be part of a community event, and see a unique up close.

Main issues with Scenario 3:

The Internal group typically goes through a lot of work to put the slaying together (hours of searching and penning, deed maintenance on the slaying site etc.). And yet they are at times met with toxicity and hostility from the External group, because of how Scenario 3 has the same issues with the scale/hide weight as Scenario 2. Another point of contention is that everyone’s chance at winning a loot roll is lowered for every participant, which makes some players feel slighted. This sometimes causes heated debates on who should and shouldn’t be included in the loot roll. There are for example those who insist that in order to get a roll you should hit the unique once, have 70fs, have played for a certain amount of time and so on.

It can be stressful to host a public event for something so valuable, and not everyone would be able to take the wrath of the community. This in turn means that far from everyone would be willing to host a public slaying: It’s easier to take crap for your actions when you’re being greedy than when you’re trying to be helpful. The toxicity can therefore actively drive people away from hosting a public slaying.
________________________________________________

 

And just to make it clear: No one is entitled to be part of a slaying. You’re no more entitled to a dragon that someone found than you are to a ql99 hammer they made. Would it be in the spirit of a community centered MMO to let others join in on both the fun and the profitable parts of it? Absolutely, and ideally we as players should be able to work together in order to have fun. But that still doesn’t mean that anyone is obligated to host public slayings for your benefit. Those that host public slayings choose to do so because that’s how they are as people, not because it’s something they’re meant to do.

 

There are lots of reasons why players choose to host private slayings. BUT – Let’s not pretend like greed isn’t a main motivator behind making slayings and/or loot rolls private. No one likes being called greedy, but all of us are guilty of it from time to time (some more often than others, and to a larger extent). We shouldn’t ignore all the obvious problems involved in the unique loot just because a certain word makes us uncomfortable. Fact of the matter is that the current system drives some players to really bad behaviours (sniping finds, steamrolling an event and taking it over, breaking into enclosures, fake rolling the loot, making a killing from selling “tickets” to attend, straight up cheating to find uniques, etc. etc.). And by always focusing on the “I’m not greedy!” part it takes the discussion away from the problems that need discussing, and shuts down any constructive criticism or reflection.

________________________________________________

________________________________________________

 

Can we control how the people whose methods we dislike act around uniques? No, no we cannot. Are there perhaps steps we can take to lessen their impact on the situation overall? Yes: A great deal of them have already been listed in the thread.

Could the unique system be reworked on the mechanical side of things so that it works in a way that isn’t a constant source of stress and spiteful behaviours? It definitely can, and I’d like to think that there’s a chance it will be.

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Posted (edited)

Considering there's been so much toxicity around uniques for years, at this point I'd just crap this entire system and be done with it. No more penning, no more private slayings. No more public ones either where people bringing 20 alts get more than others. 

 

It seems to bring out the worst in players. Greed, drama, mud flinging, name calling, people "stealing" uniques, alt abuse, etc. 

 

8 years of forums suggestions, discord moderators having to pour water on the flame wars in channels, people getting muted in gchat / kchat over heated arguments and for what ? 

 

What the hell does this current system bring in wurmians other than toxic vile behavior ? 

 

Remove it, rebuild it from the ground up, no more penning, no more alts , no more private / public drama, there are 1000 mmos out there that have various intelligent mechanics to handle bossfights and participation levels, do some research and use one of those designs if it's too much work to come up with something unique. 

 

Wurm : the only MMO I know of where the terrifying mythological creature known as a dragon is treated like a loot pinata that dies in 50 seconds and creates player wide drama for 8 years or more. 

 

Here's to 2023 and another 10 more threads like this one popping up * sad sarcasm and resignation sigh * 

Edited by elentari
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21 minutes ago, elentari said:

 

What the hell does this current system bring in wurmians other than toxic vile behavior ? 

 

I have no actual experience to go on - I have never been able to get to a public slaying - but from what I read there are a lot of positives involved with public events like Stanlee et al host.  But then from the feedback that I see I think that Stanlee could host a pretty good public slaying of a chick.

 

A ground-up re-invention might well be justified - but it would be nice if it doesn't nobble these positive community events.

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Some of the most fun I've had in this game (not involving an onion) has been had at sayings, private and public. 

 

Claiming that its nothing but toxicity is wrong, because 99% of the public one's are people just happy to be there 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Archaed said:

Some of the most fun I've had in this game (not involving an onion) has been had at slayings, private and public. 

Claiming that its nothing but toxicity is wrong, because 99% of the public one's are people just happy to be there 

 

Yes. I loved public slayings from the first one on I participated in, and most players I know do the same, and not just for blood, a tiny piece of hide or scale, or the chance to win a prize, though all of that is of course fun. I had the pleasure to participate in organizing two public slayings of our alliance, additionally.

 

Yet, I do not see a point in vilifying private slayings. They have their place, and at least in SFI, it would hardly be possible to organize as many public slayings as uniques are spotted. If so, it would rather exhaust the interest in such events, and overburden the organizers.

 

 

Edited by Ekcin
correction
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Posted (edited)

How about instead of removing something from the game add something as a alternative? Keep the dragons, keep the slayings but add either a alternative source of scales/blood or a alternative to dragon armor that cant be hogged by a group of players.

 

Those wo like the group play and the fun and effort of uniques get their rewards but offer an alternative. That way prices could be capped to a reasonable amount and more people would experience that part of the game.

I dont call 1.250 Silver for a complete set of Dragonscale (according to the latest prices in trade chat) on NFI a sane and healthy thing for the game.

Edited by Bekador

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