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Bloodreina

Uniques penning and private killings

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The most funny thing is that I am picturing a group of people doing rock, paper, scissors in front of a dumb founded dragon  😶

 

Dragons should not be able to be trapped.  They should have the power to stop shaker orbs or stonewall spells if near to the dragon. Like a area of effect barrier around it. Or even just break open a tunnel.  

 

It is a dragon, a creature that should be bringing terror to the masses. It is not meant to be a glorified piñata 🪅

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11 minutes ago, Archaed said:

Did they break a promise? They weren't going for election, can't they change their mind anyway? 

Like i said, it isn't about the group break a promise or not, it's about they made choices that would lead to a promise break. And they knew it.

 

27 minutes ago, Coach said:

The knew the choices they made simply lead to a promise break and made the people get frustrated and took away the fun that people near the rift site have expected.

They didn't need an election to know the choices they made would lead to a promise break. The finder announced the dragon will be a public slay in freedom chat publicly.

 

On 5/13/2022 at 4:42 AM, Brozhen said:

the fact that the slaying was being advertised by the finder in Freedom chat as being a public slaying that all at the rift site were going to be included in as we were all there in the area already.

 

Edited by Coach
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So... what's the proposal here?

A dragon cannot be sold after the player with claim to it has announced a public slaying in a public channel.

(formatting added to make the proposal stand out)

Is that it?

Edited by Sheffie

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I would like to know if there’s proof this was called out to be public or not. Stating there’s a dragon and saying there’s a public slaying are two separate things. Someone has logs from that day but nothing was never said on freedom from what I have searched about the dragon at all. 
 

If it was then that’s on the seller not the buying party. But if it was just assumed by the majority there that it was going to be public then it was not claimed a public slaying. I think there needs to be more information about this. 

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I have checked my logs and cannot find any mention of the dragon in Freedom I was not at the rift so I can not confirm anything that was in local. 
 

Can anyone that was within local confirm these claims?

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1 hour ago, Coach said:

It doesn't matter how good people have organized public slays, how many affords to find a dragon, how helpful to the people who can't slay from their own, how fair to the dragon loots, how end-game content are designed, how good or bad the slaying mechanic, how people dominate the markets and global casts, how people ban or threaten to people, how people bring two topics together.

 

All these reasons are only covering how bad the group's etiquette are on the angry red dragon slay, or just distracting the main point.
The main point is, the groups knew the founder announced it will be a public slay for people who near the rift site.

However, they still offer a trade and succeed to buy the dragon and turn into a private slay. The knew the choices they made simply lead to a promise break and made the people get frustrated and took away the fun that people near the rift site have expected. 


It makes people question the group's etiquette seeing from an outsider. 

 

The amount of mis-information in this thread, just to make private slayers look bad really boggles the mind.  It's fine if you don't like private slayers, but don't make ###### up.  I checked my logs just to be sure, and there was NEVER a mention of a dragon over Freedom.  And while I can't know what was or wasn't discussed in local before I got there, I have NO mention of anything being made public by anyone in MY logs for local.

 

So NO, I had no knowledge of anything of the sort ever being discussed.

 

In order for a rational discussion to take place, wild and false accusations need to stop being thrown around.

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On 5/13/2022 at 4:42 AM, Brozhen said:

the fact that the slaying was being advertised by the finder in Freedom chat as being a public slaying that all at the rift site were going to be included in as we were all there in the area already.

7 hours ago, Sinnjinn said:

I checked my logs just to be sure, and there was NEVER a mention of a dragon over Freedom.

Clearly, one side is wrong. Assume everyone involved were online.

 

It would be more clear if people pointed out the mis-information when the mis-information was there already.

Stop them at the moment when the mis-info pop up, not later when the justice seems to not on ur side. Other people will assume that is the truth if people skip it or don't speak up.

We did good to find out the misunderstanding, so that we can learn from it and avoid these misunderstanding next time. And discussion is the key.

So which one told the truth?

 

7 hours ago, Sinnjinn said:

I have NO mention of anything being made public by anyone in MY logs for local.

Would it be possible that someone mentioned its a public slay that someone in ur group or outside the group mentioned it through discord or pm?

Do u know the angry red dragon was supposed to be a public slay before u bought it and after u bought it? Through any kinds of channels, no matter its from local, freedom, discord or pm, etc.

17 hours ago, Sheffie said:

Our slaying group mobilized (via private Discord) on hearing that a dragon had been found near the location of the rift.

 

Edited by Coach
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I too have had drama with Sinnjinn over unique slayings, so before this post gets taken down, I want to add my two cents.

 

Why does this guy hold so much power over the Wurm community? I'd really like to know why people think he can ban people from public slayings... They are "public". Why does he get so much say and sway over public casts? With so many people on his "naughty list" why is there only now starting to be some backlash against him? Currently I am not active in Wurm and I still feel the need to crawl out of the woodwork and add to this post.

 

There seems to be two types of Wurm players in NFI, ones that worship Sinnjinn like a God, and those of us that don't and thus are black listed until it's not even fun to play anymore. Why is this? Normally I don't even want to be aware of that sort of drama, while keeping to myself. I have not been able to escape it on NFI. every week Sinnjinn is finding a new target to hate and all his goons cyber bully them out of the game. Why are they allowed to be "pieces of ######", as Sinnjinn called my SO.

 

I don't think Wurms self policing policy is working.

Edited by Pandalet
Moderation edit
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So, at the risk of devolving things even further into the realm of drama and accusations, I think Trickster's probably the sanest person in the thread right now.

 

A lot of players have either quit or drastically reduced their time on NFI, and some of them on Wurm as a whole, thanks to the endless drama surrounding unique slaying. Uniques have also been used as a cudgel to try and get players to "fall in line", sometimes gently as in the above log example provided by Sinnjinn, other times crassly such as the time he announced to hundreds of assembled toons that the public slay would not proceed unless I left the area.

 

Honestly, I don't see why the whole thing isn't just scrapped for a system with less drama and less likelihood to drive off players.

 

Before anyone calls foul; yes, the drama surrounding my once upon a time deeds drove off a player, too. I'm certainly not an innocent victim in the meta game of who can be a bigger greedy ######.

 

But the sane person's point still stands: There is way too much drama and hard feelings and cliquishness and bullying that surrounds this mechanic in the NFI cluster, and it breeds a kind of toxicity that is terrible for PvE games.

 

For the one staff member actively engaged on the thread, I am curious to know whether there is any discussion on staff side about how to make these recurring issues less poisonous for all involved?

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This Thread just needs to close there’s no positive input being put into discussing what actually can be done to help the situations in the future it’s just a bunch of bickering over a situation in which the whole truth has not come out on. 
 

Can we close this so that the toxicity will end already?

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Maybe closing it just covers and aids the toxic culture already happening? It's strange to me when people decide if threads should be closed like they are trying to be back-seat moderators, there are already people to decide that.

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2 hours ago, BattleWall said:

This Thread just needs to close there’s no positive input being put into discussing what actually can be done to help the situations in the future it’s just a bunch of bickering over a situation in which the whole truth has not come out on. 
 

Can we close this so that the toxicity will end already?

I think the opposite is true.  People are stating their positions and sharing their perspective quite effectively.  On the other hand, considering that this entire discussion has been about in-game behaviour the notion of repeatedly calling for people to stop talking about it is the antithesis of resolving it.  I have seen more than one person shift their position, or at least their manner, in this thread.  I grow concerned when people just keep repeating the same position and allow for no room for possible misunderstanding or ignorance on their part.  I am encouraged when people frankly and civilly explain their own subjective experience and allow that that isn't necessarily the objective entirety of the situation.  

 

If nothing else, getting expectations and standards stated explicitly will help to avoid repetition of such unhappy experiences.  The solution to misinformation is information, not silence.

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Frankly, I am not happy about derailing a thread that way. The only at least remotely on topic issues discussed a bit are the question whether or not trading unique hunting rights should be performed, and when an announcement of a public slaying is binding, further on maybe, whether or not the "owner", more exactly, the organizer of a public slaying may "ban" players from a slaying.

 

These questions rather belong into CA or Town Square forums as they are not suggestions, and have not much to do with penning. They should be discussed without mud slinging and personal attacks.

 

There is a quote attributed to Rabbi Akiba (Aqiva ben Yosef, 50-135 AD): "Everything happening has happened before already" (my translation into English, may be quoted differently).

 

This is the case with the current mudslinging, and accusations that some person or group is "ruling" and "oppressing", monopolizing unique slayings. I recall such accusations 4 years ago against an active and highly experienced player and his group. All kinds of suspicions and accusations, including hacking, and collusion with corrupt devs or GM (that one still missing here) , were raised by enviers or people feeling oppressed or pushed aside. Traces of those forum wars may still be found.

 

Btw. the "banning" issue also flared up in the past, but without arousing much of an outcry. There was a unique hunter organizing a couple of public slayings, nicely done by the way, but stated that a single player he was in kind of feud with by reasons not known to me, must not appear. She never did, and neither of both are actively playing right now. In fact, this can only be seen as a recommendation. The owner of the penning deed may of course ban a player from entering the deed, and participate in loot rolls. Whether this in within the rule framework may be discussed (I think it is though I dislike such practice).

 

Still, get real. No player is imposting as "god", and nobody is revering them as such, and also refrain from "banning". Stop your quarrels which are neither new nor interesting, and get back to mutual respect and reconciliation.

Edited by Ekcin
correction
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6 hours ago, magdegreen said:

Why does this guy hold so much power over the Wurm community? I'd really like to know why people think he can ban people from public slayings... They are "public". Why does he get so much say and sway over public casts? With so many people on his "naughty list" why is there only now starting to be some backlash against him? Currently I am not active in Wurm and I still feel the need to crawl out of the woodwork and add to this post.

 

Because he doesn't and it's the same power held over any event ingame. There was even an admission that there was a player banned from the public event, but they can't really enforce it anyway. The host of any ingame event should have the ability to say who is or isn't welcome for whatever reason.

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It probably DOES belong in Town Square, which is probably why the OP was posted there.  It was later moved to suggestions, but was never intended as a suggestion but was intended to open discussion, which is exactly what it happening.  So it is really the opposite of derailing it.

 

This is the response of the poster when it was moved to suggestions;

 

On 12/31/2020 at 12:28 AM, Bloodreina said:

 

With all respect, this was not a suggestion (since it was not only or even mostly aimed at DEVs), but an open discussion trying to also find solutions to this (potential) problem within current game mechanics, so please don't bury it here, but move it back to the town square. If that's not Ok, I will remove any reference to devs actions and repost there, but please advice what to do.

 

They asked for it to be moved back to town square.  Maybe that should happen, since it was never intended as a suggestion but as a discussion.

 

There is also a strong element of catch22 going on here - if people are not specific they are dismissed for being vague but if they get specific they are dismissed for making it personal.  Not a great way to resolve something that seems to be an ongoing frustration for multiple players.

 

 

 

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I am going to post a few suggestions here about ways to make uniques easier to access or at least allow the majority of the community to gain access to the very rare materials from them in-game.

 

OPTION #1:

Allow a random Unique Egg to be purchased from the Marks Shop for 60,000 Marks. This allows players to still gain access to the content while also supporting the game and generating a cash flow to help with further development of the game. This also will allow everyone to invite their friends they want or to host a public slaying if they choose. We already can buy Tome's from the Mark’s Shop which is a drop from Uniques. 

 

OPTION #2

Allow Drakehide and Dragon Scales to be found via archeology in the form of fragments. This would allow everyone to have a chance at all items in the game without the need for them to ever attend a slaying. While this would be a longer and more grindy option for players it would help stimulate the market for the resources from Uniques without barring them from the resource completely. 

 

OPTION #3

Make it so that Drakehide and Dragon Scales can only be gained by Butchering the Corpse of the Dragon Hatchling or Dragon. With this allow Drakehide and Dragon scales to be split using a leather knife and remove the if in local split across everyone. This would allow the party with the Claim on the Unique to split up their scale how they see fit and also make more public slayings for the bloods to be distributed to the community. 

The book of Wisdom in-game already states 

 

“Drake hide is a very strong leather and is gained by butchering Dragons or Dragon Hatchlings. For information about butchering, use “Book of Wisdom” interface.

 

“A dragon scale is obtained by butchering The red dragon. They are unique and can be used with plate armour smithing to create dragon scale armour. For information about smithing and butchering, use “Book of Wisdom” interface

 

Now with that out of the way let's also make it to where Unique can't be indefinitely trapped under ground for long periods of time. Currently on Melody there is a Deed named A Triple Fakeout created by Rambles an alt of Bleu that has a Blue Hatchling sitting under it. This has been there since December 14th of last year. The deed owner has the means of killing the Unique but chooses not to. This blocks a Blue Hatchling from spawning on Melody while it is alive. Maybe make it to where Unique starve to death and die after 90 days if not killed and under ground.


 

Edited by BattleWall
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Being fed content is .. sad.. for a sandbox.

Something needs to change to actually have the content, reports for the kills and same names keep proving things never change.

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4 minutes ago, Finnn said:

Being fed content is .. sad.. for a sandbox.

Something needs to change to actually have the content, reports for the kills and same names keep proving things never change.

When it becomes a need to have some resource in order to meet a journal requirement which in itself is in order to receive a permanent buff - it is really neither content nor sandbox.

 

 

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I am definitely against any change of hide and scale frequency or methods prior to the server merge. And then it must be tested, evaluated and balanced before being implemented if at all. 

 

Increasing hide and scale drops to serve NFI scarcity will either destroy balance on SFI, or let code diverge further. None of those is acceptable. 

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7 hours ago, magdegreen said:

I don't think Wurms self policing policy is working.

There is no such things in MMOS.

 

My 20 years of playing MMOS show that self policing works to a point, when it stops working, then no one even tries anymore. 

 

There is only one way to enforce player behavior. Coded mechanics. Simple as that. Want to stop any unique drama? Keep pestering the devs to implement mechanics that work and that's that.

 

This policy of "letting players solve their own issues" is nonsensical and a fantasy, a pipe dream at best. What would happen if we'd get rid of police IRL, would people police themselves? We all know how that would go. So who in their right mind thought it could actually work in an MMO, where the anonimity of players overall leads to fewer positive moral outcomes, aka people can do bad things and get away simply because no consequences happen. 

 

Tl;dr - implement mechanics, make dragons actually feel like dragons, not die in 30 seconds, either make them boss fights or just scrap the system and make a better one with enforced mechanics. 

 

This NFI issue is just a ramification of a larger Wurm issue that should've been solved 8 years ago. There's quite literally 100 threads on this topic , many warning that NFI would fall exactly into this economic trap and player behavior. 

 

Devs can bandaid "player rules" and the like all they want. Until a dev actually gets behind the keyboard , codes a mechanic to ENFORCE a certain player behavior, NOTHING will change. 

 

100 threads in 8 years, Jesus H. Christ, how much more do you need really to understand this system favors greed, monopolies and drama? 

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21 minutes ago, TheTrickster said:

When it becomes a need to have some resource in order to meet a journal requirement which in itself is in order to receive a permanent buff - it is really neither content nor sandbox.

 

 

How do you propose to have progression and growth? It's just one of many ways to do it, it works. Journal's fine.. it's the crazy bits in it that aren't thought of... like 100 rifts, x years after release.. how many have the cape or 100 rifts goal done and 1-2 unfinished tasks in the last journal tier?

Journal goals are like quests.. or achievements with unlocks.. call them however you like.. it's some kind of progression. It's good to do them for the passives, titles.. meh, just for the lulz - SURE.

Hopefully exploration is full of random stuff to do .. and keep people quiet for another 2 years.. hardly doable, but hope... lets murder it in the end.. once we're aware what's released.

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24 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

I am definitely against any change of hide and scale frequency or methods prior to the server merge. And then it must be tested, evaluated and balanced before being implemented if at all. 

 

Increasing hide and scale drops to serve NFI scarcity will either destroy balance on SFI, or let code diverge further. None of those is acceptable. 

Why.. rmt is gone, what's the matter if the game have obtainable end-game armor?

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59 minutes ago, Finnn said:

Why.. rmt is gone, what's the matter if the game have obtainable end-game armor?

I keep coming back to this idea as well. 


Moon metals at one point drove people crazy. People paid 5 silvers for 1 kg of MM, sometimes more. 

 

Now we can actually buy it from the marks shop, basically with EURO / USD instantly. Also can gain it from more sources now, journal goals, chaos (For SFI) , rifts,  etc. 

 

Personally I'd fix this by allowing people more ways to gain scales / hide = from missions, from journal goals, why not even from rifts too? Would make them less horrible imho.

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I guess Josh strafe hayes should make a video about dragons in wurm with and the same concerns would be considered meaningful and taken serious.

 

Dragons wasn't supposed to be penned, wasn't it? Why there's no fix for the exploit but more "unique rules" on top of it? Enforce your rules with mechanic and not the other way around

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9 minutes ago, Tor said:

Dragons wasn't supposed to be penned, wasn't it? Why there's no fix for the exploit but more "unique rules" on top of it? Enforce your rules with mechanic and not the other way around

Because penning helps public slayings, private slayings don't need penning

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