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Imbue rework formula

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1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

In fact, gathering runes are widely worthless for everything, except maybe raising resulting ql of lower ql veins in mining a bit while destroying any utility for lower level miners. I well recall how much it was  an incentive for me that I could pull ql 100 once I had reached mining 91. That was a milestone now destroyed by devs without any clue about how the game is played.


I feel you must reward players that want to grind to lv100 skill and not give it to them on a silver plate at 90 Skill.
90-100 must always be end game and must be worked for

Edited by Oversix
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1 minute ago, azuleslight said:

im confused retro just said that making gathering useless with farming and the like was intentional. is that not the case? so confused

 

The runes were changed across the board. There are no imbues for Farming and such

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2 minutes ago, Shydow said:

 

The runes were changed across the board. There are no imbues for Farming and such

the ones for gathering on sickles and the like. it was mention in above thread.

  

2 hours ago, Seriphina said:

So with my runed sickle, I get absolutely nothing anymore? Because you gather at your skill level anyway without the RNG that woodcutting and mining have. Or were those two skills the only ones actually considered in this nerf?

 

2 hours ago, Retrograde said:

 

Yes, this is intended. The mechanics around harvesting were changed in the cooking update, after runes were introduced, so this change to runes is separate to the mechanics around gathering always being at your skill level

this exchange

Edited by azuleslight
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As I stated before, the only imbues that were changed, were the Mining and Woodcutting (as far as I am aware). The runes, specifically the Bronze Lib (+10% gather QL) rune has been changed across the board. 

 

Edit: Presumably the Brass Lib and Bronze Mag runes (+5% gather QL), were changed similarly. 

Edited by Shydow
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Just now, Shydow said:

As I stated before, the only imbues that were changed, were the Mining and Woodcutting (as far as I am aware). The runes, specifically the Bronze Lib (+10% gather QL) rune has been changed across the board. 

ok thanks just wanted clarification. appreciate your hard work. 

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9 minutes ago, Shydow said:

As I stated before, the only imbues that were changed, were the Mining and Woodcutting (as far as I am aware). The runes, specifically the Bronze Lib (+10% gather QL) rune has been changed across the board. 

 

That's a helpful clarification, thanks Shydow. Since both this post and the patch notes referred to 'imbues' rather than specific imbues, I think there's been a lot of confusion over what's affected. I assume butchering counts as a creation imbue, rather than a gathering imbue, in this instance?

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Well it shows all the malice and cruelty in removing accomplishments for players. Forestry is seriously nerfed as well. Hard to see what is the reason other than envy and probably behind the scene campaigning by a certain sort of PvP players hating PvE activities, and market fanatics. A great way to make the game unpleasant for long time players. 

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1 minute ago, Ekcin said:

Well it shows all the malice and cruelty in removing accomplishments for players. Forestry is seriously nerfed as well. Hard to see what is the reason other than envy and probably behind the scene campaigning by a certain sort of PvP players hating PvE activities, and market fanatics. A great way to make the game unpleasant for long time players. 

I feel more pleasant as a long time player.

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I am glad for this change.  It never seemed right that low skill could produce high results.  It turned high 90s and 100s grinders into just a title quest and characteristic stats goals, while they sadly watched all the lower level players get the same benefit they spent months or years earning.  I think this change really does well at resetting high skills intended value.  For my part, I don't see any reason to waste money on mining and WC potions anymore.  I will just invest in raising those skills in both SFI and NFI.

 

The result for the game company will be renewed transmutation rod sales.  I think that silver sink basically vanished after imbues and runes.  Remember the old days when people sold deeds and would always talk about the transmutation created veins they planted on deed as a selling feature?  When is the last time we saw that in a deed sale?

 

All around good and much needed change.  Ouch for those invested in it already (me bigtime), but a great change.

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Please bring all gathering skills into line IE mining/forestry/wc/farming. If you will not allow 100ql items, then allow 99.99ql for folks with 100 skills. To selectively allow folks to gather 100ql items~ because they were in an unaffected "gathering" field is very unfair.

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8 hours ago, Retrograde said:

Hi all,

 

In today's update, we're reworking how imbues and runes affect the resulting quality:

 

 

To assist with this, we've shared the below information:

 

The formula for determining the resulting QL is: 

base QL + ((100-base QL) * ((Imbue power / 100) / 4)


This is outlined in this graph available here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10akDYPouIPWjcd-UAQ9-n1Jrv1KU0u2MvgqXlBoIOkY/edit?usp=sharing

 

 

 

 

OKAY, this formula absolutely means rubbish. 

 

test 1 - mining

 

[18:06:25] It has a max quality of 56. using Supreme pickaxe with 10% gather rune and 100 imbue. Mining skill is 99+ Resulting ore quality is flat 70QL

 

calculations for test one:

 

initial gather QL-56. + 10% from the rune = 61.6. Applying imbue by the formula: 61.6 + ((100-61.6)*(100/100)/4) = 61.6 + (38.4*1/4)=61.6+9.6 EQUALS 72.1    while result was 70QL. This calculation doesn't include +2QL anywhere in the equation i have to get from the supreme pickaxe. 

 

Calculations including supreme pick bonus of 2QL

 

initial gather 56Ql +10% gather rune + 2QL bonus from pick = 63.6 (considering supreme pick just flat adds 2QL base as it should without going anywhere into calculations)

Applying imbue formula: 63.6 + ((100-63.6)*0.25) = 72.7  That's once again IS NOT 70QL as the test batch physical mining gives.  

 

Test 2 mining

 

[18:58:39] It has a max quality of 99.

Tool: 

Tool.jpg

Exact mining effective - 99.67

 

Mining 99QL vein gave me the average of 81.33 QL pile with about 25% of actions resulting (and most likely capping as all are the same QL) at 96.5 QL

 

Now i will not even try to do any calculations here as its clear as never it would not equal to fit in these formulas provided, when the base QL is 99, when the skill can mine 99.67 but the results capped at 96.5.. just WTF?

 

Test 3 mining

 

Moved to mining rock (easiest to get max QL compared to any veins, plus easier to find specific QL)

 

[19:16:31] It has a max quality of 72. Resulting pile max QL82

 

once again calculations:

 

72Ql+10% rune = 79.2

79.2 + (100-79.2)*0.25= 79.2+5.2=84.4 QL.  Once again does not match the 82QL result - calculation excluding supreme bonuses

 

72QL+10%+2QL(supreme bonus)= 81.2

81.2+ (100-81.2)*0.25= 85.9QL - does not equal 82QL again

 

Also tested on 88QL rock with the result of 92.56Ql that does not fit the formulas once again!

 

Besides all that, mining 99QL vein with a plain no rune no imbue no rare pickaxe i managed to get 99QL exact ores (capped by vein QL) while mining with supreme full imbue/rune one my yields were capped at 96.5... Logic?

 

So, it turns out, if you are high end skilled character, stay away any runes or imbues as instead of giving a small "end game" boost as @Retrogradestated in the pre-patch post, you do actually get PENALTY instead.. Sounds fair!

 

SO what's going on? The patched formula does not work as you stated, also now supreme tools do not seem to give proper bonuses @Retrograde

 

Edited by Skatyna
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9 minutes ago, Wurmhole said:

.. while they sadly watched all the lower level players get the same benefit they spent months or years earning.  I think this change really does well at resetting high skills intended value.  For my part, I don't see any reason to waste money on mining and WC potions anymore.  I will just invest in raising those skills in both SFI and NFI.

 

I consider such envy and jealousy somewhat sick. Mind I have over 98 mining and 99 soon, and I in no way am or ever were "watching sadly" players getting the same materials. The reason may be that I am no market fanatic, I enjoy what I get, also give it away and share it. I also do not "invest", I play the game to have fun, and most time, I do not "spend money" except some ingame cash I earned before. I would rather waive things than "invest", and be happy even with lower ql, slower pace, whatever. Only taking away my achievements and disenfranchising me makes me sick. It bodes bad for things to come if the devs misrespect players that way, thus I am braced to leave if that is going on. I want to have fun, not to be an object just pushed around by clueless and ruthless people.

 

9 minutes ago, Wurmhole said:

The result for the game company will be renewed transmutation rod sales.  I think that silver sink basically vanished after imbues and runes.  Remember the old days when people sold deeds and would always talk about the transmutation created veins they planted on deed as a selling feature?  When is the last time we saw that in a deed sale?

 

If they vanished, core reason are people reaching 90 prospecting. Why buying a transmutation rod when you can find veins, especially on large servers like Xanadu? Ok, different in PvP, but PvP is stale on SFI and Epic, and not really exploding on Defiance where it hopefully will stay vibrant for a while. And: Mind that a transmutation rod is 25000 marks points. Together with my alts, I could buy ten of them. Not much of a silver sink.

 

If the intention of the nerf was to limit high ql materials, it comes 10 years too late given the amount of such materials already around. I shall certainly not touch my 95-100 stocks of lumps and else to imp up from creation ql. I shall hardly touch them at all, my picks aren't over 92 when fully imped,  why should they?

 

The nerf created nasty chores for me, granted. Already raised digging over 1 skill, approaching 88 today, 90 bit later. Fortunately, I stocked my clay up so I can do pottery forever at least til I hit ql 95 (meaning skill 96-97 in that awful craft, now 91.14). Until my stocks run out if ever, I shall easily be high enough in digging, it remains a molestation. Not that ally mates would not help me out if necessary.

 

But I fear for you, your market hopes will not materialize. Prices in NFI will continue dropping, those in SFI stay stable. I fear a bit for future impalong supply, but we shall see. The nerf was bad and destroyed much trust and loyalty. Hopefully the devs will not search refuge in the sparse applause by a few and go on in such ruthless ways. Where the most ruthless thing was to force down the throat an incompetent change to the community without prior discussion or test.

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I propose an amendment to the formula presented, based on the following ideas:

  1. The old system of imbues was very broken, and vastly rewarded players around 80 skill, offered little to players at low skill, and removed a lot of incentive to grind higher.
  2. The new system is intended to give a lot more function to low skill players.
  3. The new system is intended to remain rewarding for high skill players.

What I see when I look at this imbue line is, however, very little function for high skill players, especially at the extreme high-end. In fact, especially with stone and veins capped at 99QL, some players feel punished for this change, with those at 99+ mining no longer able to mine at their skill level.

 

This is most exemplified when you look at what happens at 100QL gathering - there is no bonus. While this may seem redundant, since gathering caps at QL100, it indicates a formula that has nothing to offer to people at that skill. This means there is a point, where rather than imbues being rewarding for high-skill players (as this patch was advertised), they functionally become near-useless

 

This formula leaves the low-end intact, while keeping imbues relevant for players at all skill levels, in a way that transforms as you get to high skills, by having a flat value become useful as the scaling portion drops off in usefulness.

 

base QL + ((105-base QL) * ((Imbue power / 100) / 4)

(a math.min would be required as this can result in numbers over 100, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't one already)

 

Outlined in this graph available here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1L1jT9zlBe__PzqO_9KNQjrFUeKbF846FUG3oyUG2mr4/

 

Edit: 104 might be better, who doesn't love 104, 104 and us are friends, right?

Edited by Stanlee
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30 minutes ago, Skatyna said:

 

 

OKAY, this formula absolutely means rubbish. 

 

test 1 - mining

 

[18:06:25] It has a max quality of 56. using Supreme pickaxe with 10% gather rune and 100 imbue. Mining skill is 99+ Resulting ore quality is flat 70QL

 

calculations for test one:

 

initial gather QL-56. + 10% from the rune = 61.6. Applying imbue by the formula: 61.6 + ((100-61.6)*(100/100)/4) = 61.6 + (38.4*1/4)=61.6+9.6 EQUALS 72.1    while result was 70QL. This calculation doesn't include +2QL anywhere in the equation i have to get from the supreme pickaxe. 

 

Calculations including supreme pick bonus of 2QL

 

initial gather 56Ql +10% gather rune + 2QL bonus from pick = 63.6 (considering supreme pick just flat adds 2QL base as it should without going anywhere into calculations)

Applying imbue formula: 63.6 + ((100-63.6)*0.25) = 72.7  That's once again IS NOT 70QL as the test batch physical mining gives.  

 

Test 2 mining

 

Will edit when tested on outmost vein

 

 

SO what's is going on? The patched formula does not work as you stated, also now supreme tools do not seem to give proper bonuses @Retrograde

 

Not disputing your calculations as i havent bothered to do any but Rare and Supremes do not add a flat bonus. It is dependent on the ql of the ore being mined. The higher the ql the less bonus you get

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4 minutes ago, Evilvision said:

Not disputing your calculations as i havent bothered to do any but Rare and Supremes do not add a flat bonus. It is dependent on the ql of the ore being mined. The higher the ql the less bonus you get

 

 

thats why i did 2 calculations, one completely ignoring the fact pickaxe is supreme, another one including. neither results according to formulas provided equalled to what i have physically got.

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11 minutes ago, Evilvision said:

Not disputing your calculations as i havent bothered to do any but Rare and Supremes do not add a flat bonus. It is dependent on the ql of the ore being mined. The higher the ql the less bonus you get

you are right it isnt flat but during his test at least 1 shard should have appeared above 70ql correct? if none did, the formula isnt as advertised right?

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Just now, azuleslight said:

you are right it isnt flat but during his test at least 1 shard should have appeared above 70ql correct? if none did, the formula isnt as advertised right?

i never argued the formula is correct or not as i stated in my post. i was just merely pointing out the fact its not a flat rate. 

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5 hours ago, Skatyna said:

 

 

OKAY, this formula absolutely means rubbish. 

 

test 1 - mining

 

[18:06:25] It has a max quality of 56. using Supreme pickaxe with 10% gather rune and 100 imbue. Mining skill is 99+ Resulting ore quality is flat 70QL

 

calculations for test one:

 

initial gather QL-56. + 10% from the rune = 61.6. Applying imbue by the formula: 61.6 + ((100-61.6)*(100/100)/4) = 61.6 + (38.4*1/4)=61.6+9.6 EQUALS 72.1    while result was 70QL. This calculation doesn't include +2QL anywhere in the equation i have to get from the supreme pickaxe. 

 

Calculations including supreme pick bonus of 2QL

 

initial gather 56Ql +10% gather rune + 2QL bonus from pick = 63.6 (considering supreme pick just flat adds 2QL base as it should without going anywhere into calculations)

Applying imbue formula: 63.6 + ((100-63.6)*0.25) = 72.7  That's once again IS NOT 70QL as the test batch physical mining gives.  

 

Test 2 mining

 

[18:58:39] It has a max quality of 99.

Tool: 

Tool.jpg

Exact mining effective - 99.67

 

Mining 99QL vein gave me the average of 81.33 QL pile with about 25% of actions resulting (and most likely capping as all are the same QL) at 96.5 QL

 

Now i will not even try to do any calculations here as its clear as never it would not equal to fit in these formulas provided, when the base QL is 99, when the skill can mine 99.67 but the results capped at 96.5.. just WTF?

 

Test 3 mining

 

Moved to mining rock (easiest to get max QL compared to any veins, plus easier to find specific QL)

 

[19:16:31] It has a max quality of 72. Resulting pile max QL82

 

once again calculations:

 

72Ql+10% rune = 79.2

79.2 + (100-79.2)*0.25= 79.2+5.2=84.4 QL.  Once again does not match the 82QL result - calculation excluding supreme bonuses

 

72QL+10%+2QL(supreme bonus)= 81.2

81.2+ (100-81.2)*0.25= 85.9QL - does not equal 82QL again

 

Also tested on 88QL rock with the result of 92.56Ql that does not fit the formulas once again!

 

Besides all that, mining 99QL vein with a plain no rune no imbue no rare pickaxe i managed to get 99QL exact ores (capped by vein QL) while mining with supreme full imbue/rune one my yields were capped at 96.5... Logic?

 

So, it turns out, if you are high end skilled character, stay away any runes or imbues as instead of giving a small "end game" boost as @Retrogradestated in the pre-patch post, you do actually get PENALTY instead.. Sounds fair!

 

SO what's going on? The patched formula does not work as you stated, also now supreme tools do not seem to give proper bonuses @Retrograde

 

 

Just reposting, so full finished post could be visible..

 

Also, im not against the changes, just stating facts that this new systems does not work as intended and/or advertised, it also punishes high end characters with very high end tools, whos aims are MAX QL materials. Sure, the average QL is slightly better, but the end QL is penalised and that high end QL is what we aim for. The way it is now for a slightly better low end QL this system trades off 4QL of the top with the best skills and pickaxes. Thats just WRONG!

 

Awaiting a reply from @Retrograde

Retrograde note: This is from Epic and the curve calculations are currently incorrect. They will be fixed.

Edited by Retrograde
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5 hours ago, Shydow said:

 

Jaz, you can directly replace a rune with another rune, no need to dispel it first.

Yeah but pretty much everyone in Wurm wants to see option to dispell specific enchant, but instead we get this ###### as big update after years and years of being like that from the start...

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19 minutes ago, Skatyna said:

 

Just reposting, so full finished post could be visible..

 

Also, im not against the changes, just stating facts that this new systems does not work as intended and/or advertised, it also punishes high end characters with very high end tools, whos aims are MAX QL materials. Sure, the average QL is slightly better, but the end QL is penalised and that high end QL is what we aim for. The way it is now for a slightly better low end QL this system trades off 4QL of the top with the best skills and pickaxes. Thats just WRONG!

 

Awaiting a reply from @Retrograde

Thanks for the formula and the comments. Well, I am against the changes for some reasons one may agree to or not. One is that the changes are demotivating, more for high mid level players (over skill 80) than for top levels, at least from my experience. The outlook to be able to pull (at least a few of) max ql mat at skill 91 gave a goal, not just some years in the future one which one uses to procrastinate, so was much invigorating. and certainly not stopping me once I reached that point. And of course, I got much iron above my skill, but considerably less silver or gold, even copper. Now I won't even be able to pull max ql with "only" 98.25 skill, and even skill 100 miners would get ql 100. That is ridiculous.

 

But that is not the worst. Broken promises that one would discuss the changes with the community ahead of implementation were made, and now a rude show of force enacted. That terrible style is even worst, ruthless, carelessly planned, poorly implemented. Much trust gone down the sewers. 

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Thread cleaned up a bit.

 

Keep it civil folks.

Anything not strictly relating to the test such as personal disputes will be taken to PM instead.

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Well, thank you for removing my post. you worry about imbues being overpowered and abused but you totally break runes. you betrayed our trust by not discussing this beforehand as you ensured you would. you have made imbues even more important in game, which will drive prices through the roof. you have totally disregarded the time people take to collect rune materials, make runes, and attach runes. this is a direct slap in the face to a lot of people.

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4 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

Thanks for the formula and the comments. Well, I am against the changes for some reasons one may agree to or not. One is that the changes are demotivating, more for high mid level players (over skill 80) than for top levels, at least from my experience. The outlook to be able to pull (at least a few of) max ql mat at skill 91 gave a goal, not just some years in the future one which one uses to procrastinate, so was much invigorating. and certainly not stopping me once I reached that point. And of course, I got much iron above my skill, but considerably less silver or gold, even copper. Now I won't even be able to pull max ql with "only" 98.25 skill, and even skill 100 miners would get ql 100. That is ridiculous.

 

But that is not the worst. Broken promises that one would discuss the changes with the community ahead of implementation were made, and now a rude show of force enacted. That terrible style is even worst, ruthless, carelessly planned, poorly implemented. Much trust gone down the sewers. 

 

i agree. Im not against the changes as it sure was not right when a 70 skill miner could even pull out 100QL results..  But now even maxed miners cant get nowhere near close to their max with the best tools. While im hoping this is just a bug and will be fixed very soon (as i really do believe 95+ miners with exceptional tools should be able to continue gathering 100QL and it was also promised that the new system will also reward high end players) im still fine. if that was intentional nerf like it is now, well i guess then there are no more room to put any more nails in my coffin lol...

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1 hour ago, Skatyna said:

But now even maxed miners cant get nowhere near close to their max with the best tools. While im hoping this is just a bug and will be fixed very soon (as i really do believe 95+ miners with exceptional tools should be able to continue gathering 100QL and it was also promised that the new system will also reward high end players) im still fine. if that was intentional nerf like it is now, well i guess then there are no more room to put any more nails in my coffin lol...

 

Dat.

 

I never seen anyone get incredible results at 70 skills (unless you mean on epic with the curve). But this nerf is huge for the old cluster and seems to have shifted high end content originally created to reduce the grind to a new player slight boost to appeal to the NFI cluster.

 

Something along the lines of @Stanleeproposal wouldn't be bad. The most annoying part is the fact this change was done without asking our opinion... don't we still have a /vote option in the client?

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