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Retrograde

Imbue rework formula

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2 hours ago, Odynn said:

I never seen anyone get incredible results at 70 skills (unless you mean on epic with the curve). But this nerf is huge for the old cluster and seems to have shifted high end content originally created to reduce the grind to a new player slight boost to appeal to the NFI cluster.

Nor have I. In fact, mining imbues were rare and precious, and one would not waste them on a 70 skill character. That is but a cheap excuse. As to NFI. the SFI/NFI (with Chaos/Defiance) ratio dropped to 1:2 . Recently even new players from steam start to settle more on SFI than before. And I doubt the divide will survive another year, at least not for long.

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Something along the lines of @Stanleeproposal wouldn't be bad. The most annoying part is the fact this change was done without asking our opinion... don't we still have a /vote option in the client?

Would be at least a sensible compromise.

 

Edited by Bakhita
Removed staff bashing content

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4 hours ago, Skatyna said:

 

So, it turns out, if you are high end skilled character, stay away any runes or imbues as instead of giving a small "end game" boost as @Retrogradestated in the pre-patch post, you do actually get PENALTY instead.. Sounds fair!

 

SO what's going on? The patched formula does not work as you stated, also now supreme tools do not seem to give proper bonuses @Retrograde

 

As i feared.. update doesn't work as intented... also humorous to say that earlier today before the update Retro oh sorry Archaed said  " [13:47:59] <Archaed> No need for playtesting, it's math"

 

what i would like to know, what skill imbues were affected...was it only mining + woodcutting?

devs backstabbed the community quite harshly. I did like the source spring update tho! Good job on that!

Edited by Themystrix

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4 hours ago, Skatyna said:

 

Just reposting, so full finished post could be visible..

 

Also, im not against the changes, just stating facts that this new systems does not work as intended and/or advertised, it also punishes high end characters with very high end tools, whos aims are MAX QL materials. Sure, the average QL is slightly better, but the end QL is penalised and that high end QL is what we aim for. The way it is now for a slightly better low end QL this system trades off 4QL of the top with the best skills and pickaxes. Thats just WRONG!

 

Awaiting a reply from @Retrograde

The curve on epic is not currently working, and will be fixed. 

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Just curious where the team thought this was a necessary change.

Edited by Zanzivat

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19 hours ago, Retrograde said:

Gathering Runes add +10% to the base quality, but that is capped at your skill level.

Looool... so much for gathering runes. Nice job. Lets nerf people's fun.

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15 hours ago, Retrograde said:

Actually you could pull 100 ql at around 75 skill, meaning it was very little point in grinding beyond that. 

 

The dev team plays the game as well, and the Gm team has some of the oldest accounts in the game. 

Here is a novel idea:

 

Instead of nerfing things, add functionality to the skill you want people to grind. For example, add increases to mining speed past the level you want enhanced, or maybe new ores that require that high level for people to mine. 

 

Devs always go for the low hanging fruit of nerfing/changing mechanics instead of coming up with fresh content/ideas. Stagnation is why the game is losing its player base and adjusting current mechanic levels are not going to fix that. 

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1 hour ago, Zanzivat said:

Just curious where the team thought this was a necessary change.

Copied from before:

As the old proverb says, the best time to plant a tree is twenty years ago, the second best time is now. 

 

You'll see a trend as we have gone through the past year of addressing flaws within the game by making painful decisions to bring old abandoned mechanics into balance. It's not easy for us to make these changes, we don't take a thrill from upsetting players who came to use and rely on these mechanics, but with the prospect of adding them into NFI, we were left with three options:

 

1) Allow them in their unbalanced state on NFI, and lead to a disruption of the organic skill growth of the players on that cluster

2) Create a system where they behave differently on both clusters, leading to confusion in CA help, wiki articles, and in general advice and understanding

3) Bite the bullet and make the tough change that should have happened a long time ago, meaning they are far more balanced and the same across both clusters, giving everyone the ability to work with them equally. 

 

We chose to do the third as despite the disruption now, it's better for the game in the long term. 

 

We'll be tweaking some aspects, as we're aware the current system limits actual 100 players from getting 100ql ore, and will continue to adjust if need be based on observations and feedback. 

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fix it so higher end players with higher mining get a bigger bonus to quality level of vein, thats really what made the runes convenient. i already had the mining to get 100ql ore the rune just turned 90% of veins into usable ones instead of complete trash

 

thx

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2 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

Here is a novel idea:

 

Instead of nerfing things, add functionality to the skill you want people to grind. For example, add increases to mining speed past the level you want enhanced, or maybe new ores that require that high level for people to mine. 

 

Devs always go for the low hanging fruit of nerfing/changing mechanics instead of coming up with fresh content/ideas. Stagnation is why the game is losing its player base and adjusting current mechanic levels are not going to fix that. 

+1

I have another one.. instead reverting content to what it used to be 5-10 years ago... add something new that will be liked rather than taken away and missed content.

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  18 hours ago, Retrograde said:

Actually you could pull 100 ql at around 75 skill, meaning it was very little point in grinding beyond that. 

 

The dev team plays the game as well, and the Gm team has some of the oldest accounts in the game. 

About that... there's not exactly abundance of utmost iron veins..

How was it not an option to keep the boost but scale it to player's skill.. so if you have 99 mining you could make that ql90 iron vein still into ql99 iron or "very good ql91" iron vein into ql100 iron, instead we have absolutely useless runes and imbue now, same for rarity.. 

Do you think that this makes much much much.. more sense than what we received instead .. being 100 mining/wc and struggling to pull such ql resources after the changes..

Edited by Finnn
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19 hours ago, Retrograde said:

They just won't allow you to completely ignore skill level. 

 

I must have missed something, because, since I am not a heavy grinder I don't want cut trees and logs with QL1 hatchet to produce rubbish, so I cut trees with the best hatchet I have, and I cut like 200 trees day before the nerf and didn't get a single QL90 log or even QL70, highest I could get is 65 at my 48 woodcutting, so where it is that ignorance of skill level? 

 

BTW I am carp way above 80, so 65 logs are for me like good-plank-material. 

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8 minutes ago, Platyna said:

highest I could get is 65 at my 48 woodcutting,

There is the ignorance of skill level. 

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so.. give +2 ql scaling to 50 skilled, +4ql to 70 skilled players or make an extra 80 milestone, add another 90 or 90-95 milestone for last 4ql boost to runes.. making 90-95 remain with same playstyle.. and not lose the functionality for ql90 veins.. last patch renders anything sub utmost ql vein to be useless for end game

 

We read that the game wants to preserve the skill as something important.. but this is not scaling to skill it's a total nerf returning the game -10ql or more below what was known to be normal to get for years.

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1 hour ago, Finnn said:

so.. give +2 ql scaling to 50 skilled, +4ql to 70 skilled players or make an extra 80 milestone, add another 90 or 90-95 milestone for last 4ql boost to runes.. making 90-95 remain with same playstyle.. and not lose the functionality for ql90 veins.. last patch renders anything sub utmost ql vein to be useless for end game

 

We read that the game wants to preserve the skill as something important.. but this is not scaling to skill it's a total nerf returning the game -10ql or more below what was known to be normal to get for years.

Yes. While I was never so eager to get new content, I always wanted to explore and enjoy all the possibilities the game offered. Now I am not only not eager for brandnew bugs content but have to worry about the next long standing features being destroyed.

 

Those asking for a roadmap were not aware that they were asking for lies into the face of the community. Retrograde already admitted that the ("regrettably painful") destruction of features was planned in advance. That is why no roadmap has been published and no honest roadmap will ever be. 

 

The healthful shock out of this will be rethinking our connection and dedication to Wurm. I fail to see that the loyalty existing before can be restored.

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6 hours ago, Retrograde said:

 

1) Allow them in their unbalanced state on NFI, and lead to a disruption of the organic skill growth of the players on that cluster

2) Create a system where they behave differently on both clusters, leading to confusion in CA help, wiki articles, and in general advice and understanding

3) Bite the bullet and make the tough change that should have happened a long time ago, meaning they are far more balanced and the same across both clusters, giving everyone the ability to work with them equally. 

 

 

If these were the only or best 3 options/solutions you could come up with, then this is proof enough that you need more input from others. Clearly not enough thought was put into this ridiculous change/nerf.

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7 hours ago, Retrograde said:

3) Bite the bullet and make the tough change that should have happened a long time ago, meaning they are far more balanced and the same across both clusters, giving everyone the ability to work with them equally. 

 

We chose to do the third as despite the disruption now, it's better for the game in the long term. 

 

We'll be tweaking some aspects, as we're aware the current system limits actual 100 players from getting 100ql ore, and will continue to adjust if need be based on observations and feedback. 

Who "exactly" decides this? @Retrograde. The same could equally be said about many things we now take for granted in wurm. Skills, rare items, how skilling works (or doesn't).  Also I find your quote about "giving everyone the ability to work with them equally" ludicrous in the extreme. The "devs" who decided on this change have give alts and low skilled players the ability to massive boost their ore and wc ql gathering while they have removed the same ability from the people who actually have ground out the skills IE played wurm. Do you even consider wurm a skill based game anymore?

Also, it takes very high skills to gather rift materials (or did previous to this patch), is this now not a requirement? Or are you expecting high skilled players to supply the low skilled alts and players with imbues? Because at that point your whole idea of supplying low skilled players with their imbues falls apart because they are unable to gather said materials, create runes and imbues on their own.

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7 hours ago, Retrograde said:

1) Allow them in their unbalanced state on NFI, and lead to a disruption of the organic skill growth of the players on that cluster

Hard to believe, that bit with the "organic skill growth". In fact, some estimated 100+ highly experienced Wurm players plus alts "invaded" NFI on day 1-7 , using all their experience to skill up as fast as possible (obviously also grabbing large swaths of the best grounds to deed, and still keeping them). While peak participation on NFI (indicating numbers of actually premed and active players) significantly dropped, those players in their waste majority stayed and form the absolute majority of highest level players, together with a couple of their disciples from steam, dominating the economy, and (legitimately) forming the leadership in PvP. Such is the truth about "organic growth".

 

Not that I say that such is intrinsically evil, much less that there was any sensible way to avoid it. But please don't kid about "organic growth".

 

There has been an organic, albeit downwards directed, development on the "old servers" where a lot of old players stayed but not that few new ones (me among others) arrived. My personal estimate is that between one third and over 40% of the SFI population is not older than five or six years from their first login. And that ecosystem was and is working, and stabilized. That is what you destroyed and disrupted for no actual use. The real new players on both clusters would never have cared a lot about runes and imbues, no more than I cared before being in or close to 90 skills. Even then, an imbued pick remained a precious object, imbues only applied to rare tools, and used sparingly.

 

Given the population development on NFI, I doubt that the separation will survive a 2 year period. And given the limited settlement options on the 3 servers it is in no way clear that steam users will continue to settle there in their majority. That makes the damage on SFI even more severe.

 

While not seeing any pressing need for a rework, I do not say that it could or should not be done. The way it has actually be done, lying to the community, then forcing the "improvement" down their throat, has caused lasting damage and removed much trust. And I am not sure whether it is repairable, especially as it was not the first time this way.

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4 hours ago, Ekcin said:

Yes. While I was never so eager to get new content, I always wanted to explore and enjoy all the possibilities the game offered. Now I am not only not eager for brandnew bugs content but have to worry about the next long standing features being destroyed.

 

Those asking for a roadmap were not aware that they were asking for lies into the face of the community. Retrograde already admitted that the ("regrettably painful") destruction of features was planned in advance. That is why no roadmap has been published and no honest roadmap will ever be. 

 

The healthful shock out of this will be rethinking our connection and dedication to Wurm. I fail to see that the loyalty existing before can be restored.

The roadmap has been available for some time:

this rework was mentioned in "on things current" available here:

On 9/24/2020 at 12:46 PM, Samool said:

Source fountains
We’re working on changing this mechanic a bit before reintroducing it to the new servers, mostly to avoid the claiming of those as has happened on other servers.


Rifts and runes
Rifts on the new servers will appear in a couple months - we feel the servers are not developed enough for those yet, and we would like to balance them further beforehand.


Moon metal on PvE (via gift packs)
Pending rebalance.


Imbues
Pending rebalance.

 

1 hour ago, Pingpong said:

Do you even consider wurm a skill based game anymore?

Absolutely, when you could ignore gaining skill past 75 and just rely on imbues (which gavbe a 25% bonus to ql) it reduced any point of raising skill beyond showing off. 

 

This has brought up the floor, and average quality, rather than boosted the roof so high. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Pingpong said:

Also, it takes very high skills to gather rift materials (or did previous to this patch), is this now not a requirement? Or are you expecting high skilled players to supply the low skilled alts and players with imbues? Because at that point your whole idea of supplying low skilled players with their imbues falls apart because they are unable to gather said materials, create runes and imbues on their own.

Wurm can also be a team game, it opens up a market, or allows people to work together. 

 

At this point it's becoming the same argument repeated multiple times, we've shared the formula and discussed our reasoning multiple times.

 

While we do appreciate feedback and ideas, continuing to berate us for this change we spoke about months beforehand as well will only lead to this thread being locked. 

 

 

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Zero details were released until a couple hours before release. People didn’t expect it to be so severe. They were expecting something like going back to the level before the runes, not nerfing it so it’s almost worthless at high skill levels (where it should perform best as it’s a late game mechanic). 

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1 hour ago, Retrograde said:

 

Absolutely, when you could ignore gaining skill past 75 and just rely on imbues (which gavbe a 25% bonus to ql) it reduced any point of raising skill beyond showing off. 

 

 

We're talking about nerfing miners with a skill above 95, not 75. Yes fine, it was OP and reduced any point of skilling beyond 75. I'm not disagreeing there, but punishing players who have skilled above 95 is a clown show. You're applying a nerf to people who actually did skill up well beyond the level that you're claiming you want to prevent. This is your flaw in nerfing as you have.

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17 hours ago, Retrograde said:

The curve on epic is not currently working, and will be fixed. 

 

thats in the bug section already since yesterday. What about the rest of my calculations by the provided formula? fair enough mining 99Ql vein was wrong due to the new bug. But any other QL didnt fall into the formulas provided either, like 56Ql 72QL etc that have nothing to do with the curve, as actual skill was higher than the resulting ores anyways

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4 hours ago, Retrograde said:

At this point it's becoming the same argument repeated multiple times, we've shared the formula and discussed our reasoning multiple times.

 

While we do appreciate feedback and ideas, continuing to berate us for this change we spoke about months beforehand as well will only lead to this thread being locked. 

 

You fail to understand why people are upset. let me break it down for you:

 

1. most ppl are not upset that the change was done, as it can be understood why it was needed. however at the same time everyone is upset by the fact HOW it was done

 

a)   this change made anything but outmost veins useless, while previously any vein of 75+QL could be used to get good shards. that would not be the problem if there were millions of Outmost veins around, but there are not! 

b)   This change made it impossible to continue getting 100QL for high end skilled players with literally the best equipment there is in the game. And yes, 100QL mats are required in the game as there are ppl that can make 95+QL items, so they need mats to keep making them.

c)   Item rarity, imbue - that is insanely hard/expensive to get to max out, once again making the end tool the best there is in the game - they are not beneficial any more.. you get equally same results with the regular pickaxe any mid-stage character can craft.

 

2. yes, we do agree with your point that 70-skilled characters should not get end game materials (whether or not there actually were such ppl is another discussion, however lets say in theory there was), we do agree that the skill should matter.

 

Those are the points in detail, why are we hugely upset. Oh and also we are upset about the LIES!

 

4 hours ago, Retrograde said:

The roadmap has been available for some time:

 

Rifts and runes
Rifts on the new servers will appear in a couple months - we feel the servers are not developed enough for those yet, and we would like to balance them further beforehand.

 

Saying you want to "balance" and actually shafting everyone with a massive nerf is a complete opposite, so yes, we took that as being lied to! Once again, we waited, we didn't get upset the same time we have seen that these will be balanced, as we mostly understood the balance was needed, not a massive nerf.

 

What to do? how to address our concerns at the same time as implementing dev team ideas? have just to think it through first and if you cant come up, ask community for suggestions before patching something. the same patch could have been done way differently to achieve your goals and not shafting the players. EG of the solution:

 

The formula you have provided in the patch could have been tweaked, allowing players, that actually have 95+ effective mining skills to be able to continue mining 100QL shards with imbued pickaxes. OK, fine, rune just adds up 10% "average" QL up to the skill cap, but imbue, that is really hard and expensive to max out should at least give you +5QL passed your skill cap gains. Is this a lot? no!. in case your mentioned 75 skill player has fully imbued pickaxe he can only gather max 80QL. That's not breaking the game/economy or anything, as 80QL ores are really a "bulk". in fact, there would be no formulas required in general. Rune just adds 10% average QL the way it is now, but imbue adds up flat +5QL on top (obviously FLAT scaling up to 5QL depending on imbue level). Thats it, this one part is sorted, imbues are not useless, runes work as you wanted, we players know we need imbues to get 100QL.

 

Secondly, you want the skill to matter, so do we, we also want to have what to mine rather than 5 outmost veins there are left on the server.. Solution? implement skill scaling! Every 10 mining skill we can get +2QL on the vein, capped to affective mining skill obviously. So if a guy has 32 mining, he can mine 30QL shards from a 24Ql vein. game breaking? - No. This does allow 90+ mining skill players to boost vein QL by 18 effectively meaning we can still mine 100QL from initial 80+ QL veins at least. A very simple solution that achieves your goals of making the skill matter while leaving us, the players still wanting best tools, best imbues, best skills we can get as we know we GET something from that. 

 

And lastly rare+ tools keep their +1 +2 +3 fat QL bonus as they were and like most tools are (BTW if you think that's too huge of a gain after all this, you have to remember its actually only +0.1 +0.2 +0.3 above 90QL). BOOM! patch happened, community happy. Exactly same rune & imbue principle implemented for woodcutting, so ppl can get 100QL logs too. 

 

That's what i would call "balancing" job done.

 

 

 

Edited by Skatyna
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theres a shocking display of a lack of how mechanics actually work in this game

 

maybe bringing clarity to all of that would be a good idea so people can be silent. They already have access to WU code anyways so keeping silent is a practice in futility

 

 

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