TheTrickster

New land, old servers

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It has struck me that there is a bit of a theme that emerges in a number of threads, that goes along the lines of wanting to discover and work with new territories, but the player base is just not sufficient to justify repeatedly launching new servers (rather the opposite).

 

It has also struck me how much open empty water there is between the actual islands and the server borders.  

 

I imagine you have already seen where I am going with this, and feel horrified.  Let the idea soak in a bit first, though, and THEN shoot it full of holes.

 

Would there not be some scope for NEW islands, within the existing servers, to arise from the deep?  Players can already do something similar but only on a limited scale.   GMs and Devs could raise up brand new land, whether it be bare (dirt/rock/sand etc) or have a biota seeded.  

 

Maybe don't even always announce it, just add it during maintenance downtime and then, ooh looky a new island.  I wonder what is over there?  You could even have basic rock islands (e.g. volcanic emergence).  Some could be event-related, rising out of the sea for some period and sinking again after it is over.  Get some of the pluses of "seasonal" server, like Jackal seems to have been intended, while avoiding some of the minuses.

 

This is something that, technically, players could do, except the scope would render it incredibly slow.

 

I can see objections to this, and I can see solutions to objections, but would like people to actually think about this before firing off.

 

EDITS:

 

The issue of "where" has been raised, and I thought this deserves to be addressed at the top.  Every in-game map has the first and last 5 map columns empty (actually more, but I am leaving a buffer), which add up to 200 map squares of open ocean.  You could fit the landmasses of all the 8x8 SFIs on the Xanadu map (you wouldn't want to, but you could).  That is how much room there is.   It's like Wurm is a 4:3 world in a 16:9 space.  🙂  There are also some significantly large inland seas that could hide an island or two.

Edited by TheTrickster
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I like this idea because, when I was running out of ideas of what to do on my (southern) freedom main, I looked into raising new land and discovered it wasn't really plausible as a player.

 

I would like to see the old servers being used again by old and new players. It seems such a waste to have those servers sitting there dormant and underused.

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I like this though I don't see it working on Xan since it's size is already creating lag. But for all the smaller servers I say why not!

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1 hour ago, Katrat said:

I like this though I don't see it working on Xan since it's size is already creating lag. But for all the smaller servers I say why not!

 

Xan also doesn't really need it, due to it's size most players have likely never seen all of it, so there's plenty to explore there. A lot of it also doesn't have deeds, again thanks to it's sheer size.

 

Sounds like an interesting idea for the other servers.

Edited by Ecrir
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On 12/18/2020 at 7:39 AM, TheTrickster said:

It has struck me that there is a bit of a theme that emerges in a number of threads, that goes along the lines of wanting to discover and work with new territories, but the player base is just not sufficient to justify repeatedly launching new servers (rather the opposite).

 

It has also struck me how much open empty water there is between the actual islands and the server borders.  

 

I imagine you have already seen where I am going with this, and feel horrified.  Let the idea soak in a bit first, though, and THEN shoot it full of holes.

 

Would there not be some scope for NEW islands, within the existing servers, to arise from the deep?  Players can already do something similar but only on a limited scale.   GMs and Devs could raise up brand new land, whether it be bare (dirt/rock/sand etc) or have a biota seeded.  

 

Maybe don't even always announce it, just add it during maintenance downtime and then, ooh looky a new island.  I wonder what is over there?  You could even have basic rock islands (e.g. volcanic emergence).  Some could be event-related, rising out of the sea for some period and sinking again after it is over.  Get some of the pluses of "seasonal" server, like Jackal seems to have been intended, while avoiding some of the minuses.

 

This is something that, technically, players could do, except the scope would render it incredibly slow.

 

I can see objections to this, and I can see solutions to objections, but would like people to actually think about this before firing off.

Fantastic idea and something out of left field, I like it a lot.

 

But now to play devils advocate for a second.

 

Where does this happen, as I can already see the posts going a long the lines of " you spoiled my view " I deeded the coast here and didn't want an island in front of me"  etc etc etc, you get the idea.

 

I could see finding the "right" spots being hard for the GM's 

 

Now a little off topic, but wish we had a server at one point where there was no map released, pretty much all islands ( no main body of land ) that would have been a blast to explore! 

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mmhhh....to be honest.... that idea is much more great then implementing new servers! there could be rising volcanos who spit lava and create new islands through that. i dunno if that is programmable but i find that it would work well.

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You can already create islands with the "Wand of the Seas" which I don't know if it's still available.  I sold a wand for 1 gold after an award for completing the old school journal goals couples years ago.  They used the wand near south east side of Xan.  Would like to have another chance at a wand as I'd probably use it this time for my own island.

 

https://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Wand_of_the_seas

 

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18 hours ago, Badvoc said:

Fantastic idea and something out of left field, I like it a lot.

 

But now to play devils advocate for a second.

 

Where does this happen, as I can already see the posts going a long the lines of " you spoiled my view " I deeded the coast here and didn't want an island in front of me"  etc etc etc, you get the idea.

 

I could see finding the "right" spots being hard for the GM's 

 

Now a little off topic, but wish we had a server at one point where there was no map released, pretty much all islands ( no main body of land ) that would have been a blast to explore! 

 

Yes, there is a perennial sense of entitlement in Wurm, where people think they have some kind of rights to everything that they can see.  However, given the low server populations lately, and the fact that the game mechanics would technically allow a player to to do this (more on that below) such complaints don't have any sea-legs to stand on.  I understand, though, that good customer service means not aggravating said customers, but there are limits to much unreasonable customer behaviour should be accommodated.  This would not be an island 10-tiles away from a seaside settlement.  There would be some distance.  Rifts manage to find non-deeded 41x41 squares to turn to dirt, so there is both mechanism and precedent for this, and I haven't seen widespread complaint about rifts messing up the view.

 

Others may have a different aesthetic, but to me while the wide view of a flat horizon of nothing but ocean is pleasant, an island or two in the distance would always be an improvement on that.

 

I guess another answer to the "where" question would be map columns 1-5 and 28-32, and rows b-u.  That makes 200 map squares of available space.  😜

 

10 hours ago, nicedreams said:

You can already create islands with the "Wand of the Seas" which I don't know if it's still available.  I sold a wand for 1 gold after an award for completing the old school journal goals couples years ago.  They used the wand near south east side of Xan.  Would like to have another chance at a wand as I'd probably use it this time for my own island.

 

https://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Wand_of_the_seas

 

 

Holy Carp, that is almost exactly the kind of thing I am talking about.  I found Timeless Isle and Darkken on the Xan community map that don't appear on the in-game.  They are both small and round, and well clear of the other small islands.  What I was contemplating would be less small and probably less round, but still well clear of other land.  This shows how easily this could be done in the game as it now stands (i.e. little-to-no coding to worry about).

 

Edited by TheTrickster
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On 12/20/2020 at 7:27 PM, Badvoc said:

Now a little off topic, but wish we had a server at one point where there was no map released, pretty much all islands ( no main body of land ) that would have been a blast to explore! 

 

A proper archipelago would be awesome.

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Firstly, I must state, I live up a mountain on Xanadu and have no intention of moving, so new island's won't impact me negatively in any way, but they're not going to do anything for me either.

 

 

So let us dig right in; what you're essentially asking is for the developers to terraform in some fresh new land on the existing old servers.  Most importantly, the smaller ones, since those are the ones where it would have a benefit.  The mechanics to do so already exist in game, and it is not too much of a hassel to manage; it would be a "quick" fix of sorts.

 

 

I suppose the first real question here is "why not just fix Xanadu instead, as it has plenty of coastal land and islands that are uninhabited"?  As it stands, if development effort were focused into making a larger Xanadu-like server less problematic, then surely we could combine several servers into one map and fill the empty space between them with lots of smaller islands.

 

 

The next question that arises is "ok, so lets say fixing Xanadu is not feasable, and this goes ahead, what is going to stop this needing to be done again in 3 months time"?  The idea of new land is very much a short term solution; indeed it has always led to the population becoming further dispersed over time.  This option would appear to lead to the same issues further down the line and wouldn't actually solve anything.

 

 

This all really begs the question "is this suggestion just a placeholder for implementing better mechanics to re-naturalise land"?  If we're answering yes to this, then why are we not pushing for those fixes instead?

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17 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

Firstly, I must state, I live up a mountain on Xanadu and have no intention of moving, so new island's won't impact me negatively in any way, but they're not going to do anything for me either.

 

 

So let us dig right in; what you're essentially asking is for the developers to terraform in some fresh new land on the existing old servers.  Most importantly, the smaller ones, since those are the ones where it would have a benefit.  The mechanics to do so already exist in game, and it is not too much of a hassel to manage; it would be a "quick" fix of sorts.

 

 

I suppose the first real question here is "why not just fix Xanadu instead, as it has plenty of coastal land and islands that are uninhabited"?  As it stands, if development effort were focused into making a larger Xanadu-like server less problematic, then surely we could combine several servers into one map and fill the empty space between them with lots of smaller islands.

 

 

The next question that arises is "ok, so lets say fixing Xanadu is not feasable, and this goes ahead, what is going to stop this needing to be done again in 3 months time"?  The idea of new land is very much a short term solution; indeed it has always led to the population becoming further dispersed over time.  This option would appear to lead to the same issues further down the line and wouldn't actually solve anything.

 

 

This all really begs the question "is this suggestion just a placeholder for implementing better mechanics to re-naturalise land"?  If we're answering yes to this, then why are we not pushing for those fixes instead?

 

First of all, thank you for this.  I like objections to include the reasoning that got to them, as it allows me to a) test my own reasoning, 2) learn more about the game from those with more experience and iii) answer the reason for the objection instead of just throw "is not" and "is too" at each other.

 

The first question is. I believe, faulty, because it is based on "instead" as if fixing Xanadu is a solution to the problem "wanting to discover and work with new territories" and at that a mutually exclusive one with new lands .  It is not necessarily so.  Because the mechanics for creating new islands already exist in game and is not a hassle to manage, while fixing Xandu's server issues is major development work, there is no reason why either one should be chosen over the other.  Let's start both next week.    As to combining several servers into one map, I was shot down sharpish when I suggested that as a newcomer.  Retro said "It's just asking for Wurmageddon 2.0   "   Maybe if Xanadu's server problems are fixed that will enable this, but then as you say, there is "fill the empty space between them with lots of smaller islands" so you are still proposing what I am proposing; it's just that you want the server lag problems fixed first.  If both are going to happen, why hold back the one that needs no development and almost no ongoing management in order to work on the one that is going to need a bulk order of both?  The phrase "low-hanging fruit" comes to mind.

 

"...what is going to stop this needing to be done again in 3 months time?"  I think you are misunderstanding a little the problem I am proposing to solve and the solution that I am proposing.  I am proposing this as an ongoing, dynamic process, where new island pop up (and maybe some disappear and others grow bigger) from time to time.  Think of it like rifts, but for all rather than for just fighters, if that helps.  I certainly hope something happens every few months or so, at least.

 

I think you mean is raises the question of being just a placeholder for a re-naturalization mechanic. (Begging the question is a whole other concept.  Forgive what may seem like pickiness, but English only dies if we let it). It certainly isn't in my thinking intended to take the place of a re-naturalization mechanic, but instead to provide the game with ongoing stimulus.  It is quite literally new content - just not of the fashion that most would have envisaged.  As to "why are we not pushing for those fixes instead?" I have and do.  In fact I have been very specific as to a workable mechanism for a slow and limited reversion of terraforming.  (Having read up a bit on rifts, I think they could easily be augmented just a bit to do some re-naturalizing while they are at it).  But again I don't think that "instead" is appropriate.  What I am suggesting here could technically be implemented with no development if done "manually" and very little development for it to be automated or semi-automated (think of a hybrid between a rift and a Wand of the Seas).  None of what I am suggesting precludes or replaces other measures like optimizing servers and allowing fallow landscape to revert to "nature".

 

If there is something major that I think is lacking in Wurm, it is a sense of excitement.  Not enjoyment; excitement.  Uniques and rifts don't generate that excitement for me because I didn't come to Wurm to fight.  New vistas do generate that excitement, but to provide that by spinning off a server every few months would be foolish.  Having new land pop up in the ocean is a seemingly paradoxical high AND low impact way to so something similar.  High impact because - WHOLE NEW ISLANDS!  Low impact because it happens ONLY where nobody is active. 

 

 

Edited by TheTrickster

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On 12/20/2020 at 7:27 PM, Badvoc said:

Now a little off topic, but wish we had a server at one point where there was no map released, pretty much all islands ( no main body of land ) that would have been a blast to explore! 

 

This has had me thinking.  I wouldn't normally be advocating a new server but I really like the idea of a server completely empty except for a shallow sea, with islands to be raised by players.  

 

A mega-project for players, build a new land from scratch.  

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