Sign in to follow this  
goemo

Can something be done about the super breeders?

Recommended Posts

18 minutes ago, Badvoc said:

seems the op is getting bashed for stating the fact that mob spawns are a bit wonky on the north servers, is a known fact new players have had a problem with levelling FS and finding some wild animals, the reason why the devs have tried 3 fixes the last couple of months. With the fall of deeds I would expect the spawns to improve, I know on Melody things have started to improve.

 

It's also fine saying giving horses away is a fix and if its just for a ride thats fine, but the lack of wild critters at low level has caused some issues for new players in early fight skill gain.

 

 

Ahh so this is all a bug and has nothing to do with the animals ? Ahhh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd agree that it is hard to find wild horses and I do agree that people giving them away changes that exploring for horses may not be viable. In terms of horse limits I'd prefer to go down the route of a stable, something to reduce the server load for horse breeders allowing them to be removed from caps. The problem with the limiting numbers per deed is that we already have a system that sort of does that, although not as heavily, and the solution larger breeders will use is often using separate deeds for the foals and males.  The second problem is that a limit should be something that can be reasonably enforced through the code rather than requiring gm time to look through deeds with high animal counts to police the server or encouraging people to report other players which leads to arguments and generally a less friendly community.

 

The reasoning behind the large herds is it can take multiple generations to breed in traits and colours and there is often still value in keeping previous generations of females, at the end of the day you will likely have 3-4 foals from each female before the first one is breedable and some breeders don't like killing off cute little foals, and that is there prerogative. Wurm is of course a sandbox player and people should be encouraged to play how they want to, especially within their own deeds and this feels more like a server/environment problem to me, players will often want to achieve things as quickly as possible and given the randomness involved in breeding the bigger the herd the higher your chances.

 

We have tried giving away horses to people but I think the issue is that people want to create things for themselves and often looking for your first horses in the wild is part of that adventure which should not be lost.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Huge NO to the OP. I'm not even going to read all the other BS. There is a mechanic in the game, deed ratio, that will sicken and kill animals if you have too many of them on your deed. Other than that, who are you to suggest that  me wanting to be a rancher and keep as many animals so I can grind AH as fast as i can is wrong? Maybe I want to make lots of milk and wool. Who are you to tell me that I can't have more than X number of animals. The game already discourages too many animals on a deed. You want to play on a crowded server? Go ahead. But just like IRL, if you crowd one area, then your resources per person will be diminished.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The max cap being 50 is not big enough for some deeds.
Let alone the amount of different animals that people keep on their deeds.

I live in a community village.  One of the main draws is that we have so many animals for you to grind your animals skills on. Our mayor is trying to get to 90 taming and 90 Husbandy.  Only way to do that at a more fast rate is if you have a large amount of animals to grind on.

Then again, since there are quite a few players in the village, many players have their own animals as well.  By putting a limit of 50 on animals that does not take into account, the amount of players in a village or even what they want to do with the animals. 

Some players might want to be big milk collecters and have alot of cows.  Other people might want to collect wool from sheep.  Then you've also got food supplies as well.  Many people mass breed animals like bulls and pigs...etc for meat.

 

Also, the other problem is that by introducing an object to store the animals in, you might also be taking away the freedom from players who want to see their animals roam around out in the open.

They introduced a box to store chickens in for example but it is actually more easy to just keep the chickens out in the open.  That and it also takes alot of skill to even carve the box for the chickens. 

----------------------

Mob count: I would suggest instead either making it so that the monsters and animals are not a part of the same mob count limit.  So that monsters have their own limits. Then you only have to worry about players who hoard monsters for zoos lol  - Though normally it is champs that get hoarded.

New Animal Transportation System: Or you could maybe create a new cart or wagon for animals that uses the creature cage. (I'm not sure if you can load a creature cage onto a wagon and then ship it out)

 

With this new cart/wagon you could send out shipments of animals to other players.  Sort of like the wagonar system.  Maybe even make it a part of the wagonar system.  (I don't really know how that system works btw)  Then you could have an automatic transport of animals sent from deed to deed. or manual, whichever you want to do. Auto would have some sort of payment. Manual not.

Best to have a limit some how of how many you can send though in a day or at a time.

Animal Traps: Another idea is to use the traps skill and create some new traps to lure in animals.  Like trap pit falls for example.  Made with mixed grass, shafts, rope + Veg. Lay the trap down and the scent of the trap will slowly start to lure animals towards it within so many tiles.  (The amount of range for a lure trap could depend on ql of the trap)
Then the animal once trapped would act like a creature that has been tamed.  It would stay in that spot. How long it stays still would again depend on trap ql.

 

Magic/Meditation lure/location spell for animals: As it says, there would be a spell that allows someone to find a certain type of animal in the wild.  It would tell you how many tiles away the most close animal is that you have choosen, along with which direction.  Kind of like the "Locate Branded animal" but much more detailed.   It would ignore animals on deeds/ (Don't know how though, maybe a new system or change in the code for that > . > )

 

Tracking skill: How many people use the Tracking skill for trying to find animals?   if they don't, then is it because the skill can not reach very far in range?  How about some add ons to the tracking skill.  If you click on "Track" you then get some options of what you want to track.  "Players, Sheep, Cows, Horses...etc"  You can even have a monster tracker as well to find certain monsters.  Champ Creatures and monsters could only get tracked at much higher levels. 

The higher your tracking skills, the more different types of creatures you can track and the further you can track.

Edited by Zexos
Added 3 more suggestions
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not even sure that the "big" animal breeders are the cause of the spawn troubles. I think, if anything, it  is rather the large number of deeds scattered over all servers which limits wildlife spawn. Anyway, according to MRTG, cadence recently has a total creatures count of 35k. 8323 of them aggressive. Independence reports 27k creatures though I am not entirely sure about comparability SFI-NFI. But those data do not indicate that "Superbreeders" are the root cause of spawn problems, as far as those still do exist.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding, "Can something be done about the super breeders?"

 

It's a called a burdizzo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Come to Xanadu :3 you will never complain about space/mobs/people.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm one of those who prefers to see my horses.  If I wanted to play a game of spreadsheets, I'd go back to Eve Online. And before the suggestion of a stable is taken seriously, let's consider the consequences of the chicken coop.


A chicken in the wild will lay 99q eggs.

A chicken in a coop will lay eggs equal to the coop's quality.
Which is why my chickens were in a pen adding to the total mob count (until I got tired of feeding them more than a horse eats and made dumplings).

As for mobs, while the number around my deed has dropped there are places where we've gone and found more than plenty. I counted at least 5 trolls I sailed past today.
As for horses. I've tried several times to be rid 1 and 2 speeds and for the most part, end up turning them into McWurm burgers because I couldn't give them away.  I have a pen with around 20 now that nobody wants.
As for wild horses. I passed 3 today sailing from Melody to Cadence.  They were out for a swim.  Sheep, cows... a pile of a half dozen are on the abandoned deed next to mine.

I didn't start my breeding until after all the 'super' breeders were well under way. And I started from wild horses I collected.  Over time, I did... wait for it... horse trading... and, along with breeding, increased the size of my herd. I did NOT spend 1,000 silver doing this.  Matter of fact, I haven't spent a single silver buying a horse and my deed is around 6s a month.

I would suggests that if you are not finding mobs, you're looking in the wrong place.  If you're looking for horses, there are plenty to be had.  The question is, would you rather shake a finger and over exaggerate a claim blaming others for not having success, or would you rather work for what you want?

Sorry, but in this case, I'm going to go with the devil I DO know.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, goemo said:

Did you read my edit i made then i started this thread? That instanly answers you multiple deed issue.

 

And yes take horses away from people that breed more than they can use/sell to not punish people that have a. been later than you in the game and b. have less of an income and cant afford silver from the store so they can afford these size of deeds. People already made suggestions how to fix this without you loosing all your animals aswell. 

 

So if you would kindly stop twisting what this thread is going about that would be greatly appreciated. 

 

And there is only 1 ressource scarce.. thats wild animals and mobs... and why is that ? 10 people with big wallets that have breed 500 animals each. For no good reason besides "i want to be a monopol and dont care about anyone but me".

 

How about breeding good horses and make your farm that way ? Wait that would mean you have to put effort into wurm..you know the game where everything is gained through A LOT OF EFFORT.

Right now a lot of us are keeping way more horses than we normally would, simply because we're working on breeding up quality. To get five speeds means a lot of babies need to be made, then grow up and make more babies. I'm just getting my first five speeders now. When i have a decent size stable I'll not have nearly as many..probably.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back when i moved to deliverance a few years ago you couldn't find any wild horses anywhere.

 

This was due to the number of player bred horses on deli deeds. Some deeds had close to 80 horses.

 

So yes, there IS a server cap for horses / bisons.

 

The only reason you can find deli wild horses right now is because many deeds have been abandoned and players have quit. Horses have begun to respawn normally.

 

Ask any delian about it.

 

My point it, it's a stupid system that needs to be fixed, when the number of players rise and on deed horses increase which leads to no wild horses spawning.  It's not like it hasn't been an issue for some years. And deliverance wasn't even that populated , it just had a lot of deeds with a lot of horses.

 

This effectively forces people to buy horses and makes it more difficult to breed them yourself.

 

The code needs to be fixed for spawns. A lot of mmos make corrections to prevent monopolies or oligopolies forming in player ranks.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I tend to agree that the spawn mechanics may need to be revisited, it seems that the OP is lying to him/herself as, among others, the posting of Fengist demonstrates. I saw quite some horses, cows, sheep, even bisons on NFI watching random streams of players there :).

 

All those "analyses" blaming breeders for low wildlife counts miss the point. When I was sailing to other servers more regularly (mainly to rifts and unique slayings), I sometimes found wild horses and other farm animals on Deli, as well as on other smaller servers, albeit not along the more populated areas with many deeds.

 

I am not a java programmer (or OOP programmer at all), so I do not know and do not claim to judge where core reasons for troubles with the spawn systems lay. The matter seems bit more complicated, What I see though, is that the devs are pushed and pulled around with different and changing complaints. Some lament that there are too few/too many mobs (aggressives in particular) in the NWSE, others want horses/bisons/bears whatever, and sometimes blame other players, game mechanics, or whatever. In the past, lack of unis and gobs has been a matter of complaints.

 

Assessing the current situation, I find the swimming horses somewhat strange and funny, but better than the scores of drowning cows, bulls, and unicorns of the past. In my area in NW Xanadu, we have enough aggressive mobs, and a few less wild farm animals than in the past (especially onshore), but no shortage at all. To my observation, the south still has less aggressive animals, can't tell about farm animals an unaggressive beasts.

 

I would strongly recommend the devs not to act hastily on spawn mechanics complaints. Otherwise they risk to trigger new side effects and being lambasted by the next group of complainers.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Azgodeth said:

sounds like someone doesn't know what is involved in breeding the best horses.
good luck getting a 5 speed without breeding a few hundred lousy ones first.

 

Even if you have amazing 5 speed stock it is not easy to continue it, and this virtually not possible with 50 horses to get rare coloured 5 speeds, especially in the amount that would create a sellable excess. Unless you have an army of alts to "care for" all these horses. 

 

@elentariI don't believe in that server cap, there is something not okay with spawns anyway. Let's take R20 Ind - the number of horses there is not fluctuating much. The problem is that sometimes 40 horses spawn on the one "map tile" or "map square", and what then happens with these horses? I find them in the sea at the server border or on Elysian Mountain, mobs should have some limits to where they can wander on their own. 

Edited by Platyna

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Platyna said:

The problem is that sometimes 40 horses spawn on the one "map tile" or "map square", and what then happens with these horses? I find them in the sea at the server border or on Elysian Mountain, mobs should have some limits to where they can wander on their own. 

 

Actually I've seen Mob Clusters spawn in real time in front of me many times on Epic. Northern Desertion contains a huge steppe where people often hunted.

 

After a couple of players cleared the steppe you could roam it and sometimes see how 20 sheep spawned on 1 tile and started roaming in different directions. I wonder if the code is still the same. And yeah I know Deliverance doesn't have much steppe either.

 

I think the devs could hit 2 birds with 1 stone if they fixed mobs so they  can't climb high slopes over the 40 value, which applies to players and riders as well. That way mobs can be prevented from getting stuck on huge mountains no one can reasonably access and more passive animals can be encountered this way.

 

Sailing around Deliverance and Desertion for some time now has shown me hundreds of passive mobs, bulls, cows, sheep just wandering on the side of mountains near the ocean.

 

A brief cure-all solution would be to : 1. Fix the code so mobs can't go over 40 slope.

 

2. Implement a kill all mobs on server for passive / aggresive mobs NOT on deed.

 

*Note: Mobs underground but on deed should be killed as well because a lot are stuck in collapsed caves. As long as they are up top they should be fine.

 

3. Give players a month of time to make their adjustments.

 

4. Push the button.

 

5. Begin respawning animals with the new code.

 

6. Obviously this is made on the assumption it would first be tested on an empty server or the test server to see how it pans out.

 

I also agree that swimming mobs such as horses / bears shoud have a max stamina limit to how much they can swim at which point they should try to make their way to an island or some such.

 

Player led horses on boats should not count obviously.

 

Basically make the map make more sense. Seeing bulls on 3000 slopes doesn't do much for immersion. Looks more like a bug than a feature.

Edited by elentari
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, the widely suggested solution is "go engage with the community and beg/buy a horse" or "move to a cluster with a ghost town population"?

 

Those are a little extreme in my view.

 

The "mega-ranch"; often a blight upon the game world since you have mobs sitting in a pen doing nothing except taking up a population slot.  They induce lag in local, they are often "locked down" land areas, and when inactive play 0 role in the game barring negative ones..

 

However; they're less of a problem when the world isn't full of them and they become less common as high speed critters become more common as a server ages. 

 

This is an issue, but it is a short lived one that eventually resolves itself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Etherdrifter said:

So, the widely suggested solution is "go engage with the community and beg/buy a horse" or "move to a cluster with a ghost town population"?

 

Those are a little extreme in my view.

 

The "mega-ranch"; often a blight upon the game world since you have mobs sitting in a pen doing nothing except taking up a population slot.  They induce lag in local, they are often "locked down" land areas, and when inactive play 0 role in the game barring negative ones..

 

However; they're less of a problem when the world isn't full of them and they become less common as high speed critters become more common as a server ages. 

 

This is an issue, but it is a short lived one that eventually resolves itself.

 

Animals induce lag? To whom? I don't experience any lag on my ranch. These are my animals, people hoard all kind of things I need all my animals, I like them, and I skill on them, and they bring me profit. I have optimal numbers of animals on a VERY expensive deed. I paid the slots the occupy. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, elentari said:

Seeing bulls on 3000 slopes doesn't do much for immersion. Looks more like a bug than a feature.

This is very true.

Edited by Katrat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Katrat said:

This is very true.

But, as always, for every problem a solution exist which is simple, elegant, and wrong. In fact, up the 3k slope, meadows and woods exist sometimes, the unimmersive bulls and cows wandering there, traversing the high mountain range, towards the next area. At least they should do so, sigh ..

 

Generally, well, one might tie both animal spawn and animal movement to terrain topography, and yes, it would be more immersive. And maybe, Independence would get the same lag problems as Xanadu, or worse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

But, as always, for every problem a solution exist which is simple, elegant, and wrong. In fact, up the 3k slope, meadows and woods exist sometimes, the unimmersive bulls and cows wandering there, traversing the high mountain range, towards the next area. At least they should do so, sigh ..

 

Generally, well, one might tie both animal spawn and animal movement to terrain topography, and yes, it would be more immersive. And maybe, Independence would get the same lag problems as Xanadu, or worse.

And so we continue on with bison, bulls and cows that defy gravity. ;)wurm.20200208.0037.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A max cap of 50 is nothing. I for example don't have a lot of animals for my deed size (22s upkeep), I've got around 20 horses, around 20 bisons (including for wagons/carts), around 15 cows for milk and another ~15 sheep for milk and shearing. Considering my deed size that's absolutely nothing, yet it puts me nearly 50% over that cap.

 

It sounds more like the problem up north is simply a matter of overpopulation, some mechanics seem to break down once too many players/deeds are present on a server. Down south I haven't heard of stuff like this being an issue at all, so perhaps the answer is rather simple: Connect the clusters and encourage new players to go to the less densely deeded servers so everybody gets more evenly spread out.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chickens do not have any traits, names, so it is easier to just put those in something like chicken coop, but I think that even if chicken are in coops the chicken as a creature in database has still its instance, only thing that server can skip some of its behavior (those are not moving, do not need to track it's position and control it's movements), just lay eggs, eat, age, but it is still a creature instance that takes it's place in server memory. Stables also could only release some of the animals behavior from server load, but still the creature count surly won't decrease that way. Some of the Wurm Devs should confirm that as this is just my supposition as a programmer, but I do not know know exactly the Wurm was build. Some things are universal thou.

 

Surely breeders should maintain their stock to reasonable count, I think there is a way to reduce the need of breeding so much animals - just increasing the harvest count of each animal - cows should give more milk (maybe age should influence as a multiplier), same to sheep (more milk and wool) and other animals that produce some of the stuff, pigs could age quicker to be faster "harvestable", also each of animal should have it's breeding counter, as in normal life each female has its limits to give birth.

It is easier to obtain just regulating some of the server and creatures constants and parameters, creating stables and other new in-game creations is more time consuming and needs more dev time to implement.

 

Those are just my suggestions, but maybe some of those could be helpful to reduce the need to have so much on deed animals.

 

Regards

Jaquari

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/3/2020 at 6:23 AM, goemo said:

Thats not what i said though what i said is

 

Edit : I would find a CAP for animals on a deed the best solution. Max 50 animals per deed total. If people want to get around that with multiple small deeds and alts warn and if continued kill their animals via GM. I get even that you want to breed a lot of them but not at the cost if eliminating all wildlife even mobs. 

 

A edit i made right at the beginning talking about people trying to bypass the cap via making multiple small deeds via alts. Introduce the cap... let the overcap animals die of old age. If they try to prevent it via making 500 alts and care for all of them the GM action would apply aswell.

Are you kidding me "Max 50 animals per deed total." If there are no horses then go around and kill other animals to decrease the spawn so other stuff can spawn in. There is a max amount of creatures. if 500 is the max creature spawn on the map and 400 are horses that means there are 100 other animals out there. Seeing as we won't kill horses mostly, they are still taking part of the 500 spawn number and the other 100 are still not being killed = no new animal spawns. not sure on the correct verbiage but there is a max number of spawned animals on each given map. kill some and more will come. Limiting others because you can't find something is a bit much in the asking. On Xanadu I have 30/horses and because a newer player can't find any am I just suppose to give my horses up??? No you have to do what others did before you, buy, hunt, travel and locate..gl in your search.

 

I understand it's frustrating but it will get better, I didn't start with a horse for a min of 2/mo and I happened to find one when I was walking along the highway to the city, still couldn't ride it but I was soooo freaking happy. It takes time, and you have to go and fight, scout, or buy what you want. I didn't start with Silver either I had a un-deeded location for 3/mo I just locked and secured everything and built a small building to protect my belongings, Look on the forms people are always willing to help, but if you come on here asking to take stuff away from people that worked their butts off to get, build etc.. you are going to get backlash.

 

Try not to get to discouraged it will get BETTER..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about give an option to subscribed players to have a one time summon horse just like teleportation ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Ngin said:

How about give an option to subscribed players to have a one time summon horse just like teleportation ?

-1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this