Clarification request according to WU code being used to get answers for WO mechanics questions.

[Platyna 521]

I was arguing with another player who keeps calling WU code while giving answers on CA_HELP, and wer were told on this very channel, we cannot use WU code to rule out WO mechanics. So I would like to get an official statement from Wurm staff if WU code corresponds sufficiently to WO code and can be used to get answers about WO mechanics. Thank you for your time. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by Platyna

[AlmostSolitude2 113]

not sure if there's any written rule about this but what i like to do is:
we can point it out, WU code "used" to be similar but with every update, we distance ourselves and differentiate ourselves from it more and more

edit: found something in the wiki :

Spoiler

 

Edited November 20, 2020 by AlmostSolitude2

[Platyna 521]

Yes I pointed that player to Wurmpedia, and he kept arguing it is a different thing, so some more general clarification (because it is an ongoing discussion between many helpers) would be useful. If we can or cannot give answers on CA_HELP based on sight-reading the WU code, so it is solved once for all. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by Platyna

[Sklo:D 2,210]

3 hours ago, Platyna said:

I was arguing with another player who keeps calling WU code while giving answers on CA_HELP, and wer were told on this very channel, we cannot use WU code to rule out WO mechanics. So I would like to get an official statement from Wurm staff if WU code corresponds sufficiently to WO code and can be used to get answers about WO mechanics. Thank you for your time. 

 

Actually WU and WO code are similar in many aspects. So the chance when arguing with WU code is higher to be right than to be wrong. There is no 100% gurantee that things are really the same, most things which are different are just missing in WU completly, but some small details like login code, unique spawn code, skill gain and some other things have been proven to be different. But I would say 98-99% of the code are completly the same. I fail to see why it is a problem to argue with WU code.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Sklo:D

[Locath 525]

I don't think this is as black&white.

People couldn't answer me when i asked if i can open a mine entrance which will come out deeper than the max surface mining depth for example (most were saying that it can't be done but there were also people saying "yes"). I launched WU, tested it there and it worked. Did the surface mining and tried in WO and it worked as well, despite multiple people saying it won't work.

I agree that fact of something working in some way in WU doesn't mean that it works the same way in WO but it doesn't rule it out. In fact, in most cases the game behaves in the same way, regardless if the info is provided from reading the code or from testing something by playing WU.

[Retrograde 12,013]

1 hour ago, Sklo:D said:

Actually WU and WO code are similar in many aspects. So the chance when arguing with WU code is higher to be right than to be wrong. There is no 100% gurantee that things are really the same, most things which are different are just missing in WU completly, but some small details like login code, unique spawn code, skill gain and some other things have been proven to be different. But I would say 98-99% of the code are completly the same. I fail to see why it is a problem to argue with WU code.

Mostly this. 

 

I would also say take a big grain of salt, due to the 1.5 years worth of development differences with WO and WU. 

 

You can't get a black and white answer because it doesn't exist. 

[Platyna 521]

So there is 1,5 year of difference in code development, 1,5 year is an eon in programming. So I don't understand why we can't get a clear official answer that would help us to improve the input we give on CA_HELP. 

[Oblivionnreaver 5,174]

read wu code/test on wu - search https://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Wurm_Server_Release_Notes_2020 and 2019 to see if it's been changed since last wu patch - test it in game to see if it functions as you'd expect reading the code, and yell at retro for not putting it in the patch notes if its changed.

 

Not rocket science, A dev isn't going to tell you if it's the same or not because NDA's prohibit it. generally devs won't even discuss WU code with you since they would have a hard time separating knowledge from ripping the code to the code they've read/written. Obviously not everything is the same but practically any of the base mechanics bar tile polling for some reason and what sklo's posted are almost exactly the same in pretty much everything i've ever tested. I've never ever been told not to use WU code in CA help (and trust me i've said this is from wu dozens, probably hundreds of times), i've just been told to specify that it's from WU if it is.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Oblivionnreaver

[Sklo:D 2,210]

5 hours ago, Platyna said:

So there is 1,5 year of difference in code development, 1,5 year is an eon in programming. So I don't understand why we can't get a clear official answer that would help us to improve the input we give on CA_HELP. 

 

Considering the big code base Wurm has and that there haven't been a lot changes in Wurm Online backend the last years, the percentage which changed in the last 1.5 year is maybe 1% if not even less so 99% of the code have never been touched in the last 1.5 years.

 

Wurm Unlimited will be extremly similar to Wurm Online for the next 5+ years, if there isn't a huge game breaking code change. So comparing WU code to WO functionality will be valid for the majority of questions for at least 5 years, some things were different and other things will be different.

 

Edit: Also don't forget that many things from WU make it to WO, so at some point WO will get closer to WU again when it comes to including mods. We have seen this before and will also see this in the future, some mods are way too good to be ignored.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Sklo:D

[Ostentatio 1,970]

1 hour ago, Sklo:D said:

Edit: Also don't forget that many things from WU make it to WO, so at some point WO will get closer to WU again when it comes to including mods. We have seen this before and will also see this in the future, some mods are way too good to be ignored.

 

I would not count on the WO and WU codebases converging and becoming more similar over time; in fact, the opposite will continue to occur. Wurm Online will, by necessity, continue to diverge from Wurm Unlimited, as Wurm Online is always changing and Wurm Unlimited is no longer receiving feature updates. Wurm Unlimited was also never entirely 100% identical to the Wurm Online codebase in the first place. Additionally, even if a feature is implemented into Wurm Online after someone else modded something similar into Wurm Unlimited, that does not mean they would be implemented in the same way.

 

@Platyna

To answer your question, there is no strict rule about using information from Wurm Unlimited when helping out other players, in CA Help or other channels. As long as you're making a good faith attempt to help other players, I see no reason why you would get into any trouble. Of course, including such information in Wurmpedia is another matter, as there are additional policies there which preclude information based solely on Wurm Unlimited.

 

As for using WU datamining to understand WO mechanics in general: Wurm Unlimited has been a very valuable tool for players to figure out the nuances of the game's systems, but it's important to take it all with a grain of salt, especially when it concerns things that may have changed since then. That doesn't make it useless, but it does mean you can't quite take it as gospel. When possible, it makes sense to test things in-game to confirm that they match what you're getting from that datamining, or indeed any other source of information.

[Sklo:D 2,210]

13 minutes ago, Ostentatio said:

 

I would not count on the WO and WU codebases converging and becoming more similar over time; in fact, the opposite will continue to occur. Wurm Online will, by necessity, continue to diverge from Wurm Unlimited, as Wurm Online is always changing and Wurm Unlimited is no longer receiving feature updates. Wurm Unlimited was also never entirely 100% identical to the Wurm Online codebase in the first place. Additionally, even if a feature is implemented into Wurm Online after someone else modded something similar into Wurm Unlimited, that does not mean they would be implemented in the same way.

 

Haha, ok.