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ChampagneDragon

Let's Talk Common Courtesies....

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.... Common Courtesies that Wurmians (Mostly?) Observe ....

(I will be repeating some things already mentioned as an effort to +1 these community ideals!)

 

  • if possible, replant trees you fell
     
  • if you are going to fell trees to level up your weapon skill - whenever possible, have a friend or neighbor(s) follow you to bash tree trunks & collect the lumber for usage
     
  • ditto if you are leveling foraging & botany or foraging for coins
     
  • please use corner-paving to create diagonal stretches of roadways; zig-zag roads are eventually going to get "fixed" by someone - so save your neighbors the trouble
     
  • Wurmians have multiple methods of dwelling in game; learn to recognize which type you are encountering, and be respectful when in someone else's dwelling space*
     
  • whenever possible, provide a safe space for travelers: even just a fenced area with a gate they can enter when running for their life
     
  • if you provide a guest house or rest spot, please also provide a safe area of grass for mounts & hitched animals
     
  • players: return market keys after collecting your purchase... markets: provide players with well marked key-return barrels or boxes
     
  • "wild" and "perimeter" lands of Wurm are public lands. That doesn't mean a player can do whatever they want and nobody has the right to tell them otherwise - that means the public all have equal say about what happens in that space. Read: if it says "wild" or "perimeter" collaboration should be given priority over my idea or gtfo
     
  • Public Works are sacrosanct. Only make changes when a Local consensus can be reached. This means roads, highways, canals, tunnels, docks, areas immediately adjacent to Newbie spawn points, and areas obviously maintained for public use of resources (orchards, gardens, milking cows, mines, fishing ponds, sand pits, clay pits, etc)
     
  • The bigger your project is, the more you should be communicating about it with your Local
     
  • Make honest attempts to locate the owners of things you find that might have been stolen and/or accidentally lost and/or got loose somehow. Be gracious if an original owner turns up to request things returned. 
     
  • when reasonably possible, try to deed land (including your perimeter)  X number of tiles away from any other deed+perimeter. X is variable depending no the size and active population of your particular island. If you don't have a general idea of your island's X - ask. Ask multiple times and average the responses. 
     
  • Don't expect server chat to do for you what CA Chat will do. Also, don't expect CA Chat to do for you what you haven't yet tried for yourself. 
     
  • When possible, provide assistance to players making a corpse run; we've all been there at least once. 
     
  • When possible, provide assistance to newbies obviously struggling; we were all new once. 
     
  • Different aspects of Wurm have different value to other players. Don't "it's just a game" someone when they express either distress or enthusiasm about something you consider low-priority or uninteresting. 
     
  • "Be Kind" and "Play Nice" are not just for PR and marketing schemes to make Wurm & the Wurm community look better than it is. These are actual instructions and a real rule from official Wurm staff. I would also add: be considerate. Your idea of "kindness" might not be your neighbor's idea of "kind." In the quest progression of being kind and playing nice - also be considerate of how your community and your neighbors might think and feel about a thing. 
     
  • Don't be a thief on a PvE island. 
  • Just... don't. 
     
  • Accidents and misunderstandings happen; admit offenses, make reparations, and move on. On BOTH sides. 
     
  • Certain in-game things are unique, rare, or highly valued. Figure out what they are and be respectful. Don't steal, hoard, or ruin it for others.
    (Hint: oak trees, willow trees, certain types of ore, Champion mobs... You can figure out the rest as you go along)
     
  • For the love of the gods, don't take advantage of the newbies
     
  • When someone has helped you in some way, pay it forward

 

 

 

* Regarding Wurmian Methods of Dwelling

(in a Wurm world according to Amata.... )  Between playing completely free (as do the Free Folk) and using IRL money for your deed upkeep and your player premium subscription (that's me, lol)... Wurmians have developed a number of approaches to dwelling in Wurm. I flourish best in an ordered, defined environment, so here is the orderly definitions I have come up with so far.... 

A "homestead" is a free, undeeded, area of otherwise public land being used for dwelling and/or actively cultivating resources. Among those who live primarily on a "homestead" are new players who have built a classic "newbie shack" and temporary fencing on "wild" tiles, or even perimeter lands... as well as the aforementioned Free Folk of Wurm. 

 

A "deed" (aka: village, settlement, estate, etc.) is an area that has been deeded and maintained by a player (the "mayor") and the deed's citizens. Things that are on-deed are privately held and no longer public even if they are still accessible to the public. (For example, paths and small roadways that the public might use cutting through the deed). Deeds afford their players with certain dwelling perks, such as the ability to brand animals and the use of menus to set and control different levels of accessibility while on-deed. 

 

"Holdings" are the various combined properties of any given player. A player's holdings may include any number of deeds on various islands, as well as hunting cabins, rented or owned space at a dock or market, and also any homesteads being actively maintained by the player. 

 

Example: Jane is relatively new, and has a homestead next door to Amata's deed. As a long time player, John's holdings are extensive, and include a deed on this island, a deed on Xan, and a couple different hunting cabins. Also, John's Alliance maintains a homestead near the closest newbie town, which is often used to help (and eventually recruit) new players for the various Alliance villages. 

 

This is all to say that we should be respectful of each other's spaces - whether or not they are "on-deed" - as homesteads and Free Folk and Wurm Nomads do exist. As do hunting cabins and resource nodes with alts parked at them. Always look for signs of life, repair, and upkeep before assuming that a place is an abandoned or disbanded deed. 

Edited by Amata
it's late and i've had a bad week
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47 minutes ago, Amadee said:

Trying to have a conversation about "common courtesy" is a nice idea but unfortunately courtesy seems to no longer be very common in today's society, especially on line. I applaud ChampagnDragon's effort though.

 

Hope Springs Eternal!!!!!

✌🏼️🌱💜

 

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57 minutes ago, Platyna said:

Deed perimeters should be left alone, unless you have a permission or you are sure that the deed owner doesn't care. I use my neighbours perimeters and I made sure of the above. I have my neighbours to use part of my perimeters. Perimeter belong to a deed, it doesn't exist without a deed, so if you see something on the deed perimeter, don't touch it without asking. Perimeter is clearly marked  - you examine a tile and you see if it is perimeter. If people will follow this there we will have a lot less drama and bad blood in the game, as most problems are caused by the perimeter space, so-called "perimeter wars". 

 

 

heya Platyna, sometimes your writing style, tone, or manner makes it hard for me to tell if you are approaching something like this to say it is a matter of courtesy, or a matter of rule of law. 

Given the topic of this thread is about discussing player courtesies, I am interpreting the above quoted reply as a suggestion that leaving perimeter lands alone should be the default common courtesy, as even when items or objects, etc, are left out on a perimeter, the game provides us with obvious mechanics (inspect the tile) to make a reasonable guess at who is the proper owner of the items, et al. 

 

Does that sound correct? 

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PvE thieves are the kind of people who'd break into your car then try to blame you for not installing bullet-proof windows.  Of course, that kind of crap wouldn't fly in court and there'd be consequences so they don't do it and instead stick to doing it in games' PvE settings where they're mostly shielded from consequences (and thus far from PvP servers).

 

Proper lowest common denominator.

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16 minutes ago, Jore said:

pls relax

 

 

 

I'm beginning to suspect that Jore searches for my forum posts solely to advise me to calm down & relax. 

But.... I just have a lotta feelings. 

 

 PS. Have you met me?? I'm Amata; this is what I do. I drink tea, and I write too much.

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This is why rules should be revisited and such behaviour shouldn't be tolerated. This is a game, both Code Club AB and player have a common goal - CCAB want to have many players online, so they will pay them for the game and bring profit, and we want to have a nice game with many nice people, so we are happy to pay for the game. So the rules should be modified to ensure this and if someone is an ass they should be punished because they go against CCAB objectives and community objectives.

 

I saw a lot of people leaving because of perimeter dramas on Ind. Some left to less populated servers but some left for good and few of these people were players who first - I really liked, and second - who were spending a lot of money. 

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4 hours ago, Platyna said:

Deed perimeters should be left alone, unless you have a permission or you are sure that the deed owner doesn't care. I use my neighbours perimeters and I made sure of the above. I have my neighbours to use part of my perimeters. Perimeter belong to a deed, it doesn't exist without a deed, so if you see something on the deed perimeter, don't touch it without asking. Perimeter is clearly marked  - you examine a tile and you see if it is perimeter. If people will follow this there we will have a lot less drama and bad blood in the game, as most problems are caused by the perimeter space, so-called "perimeter wars". 

Sorry, but no, a perimeter does not belong to the deed.  It is a buffer designed to keep a minimum separation between deeds as a specific no-mans land.  I does not belong to anyone.  Nobody has any more right to a perimeter than anyone else.  A lot of the "perimeter wars" occur as much because deed-holders can't accept that they have no authority over what people do in perimeters as because of what people do in perimeters.

 

That said, a perimeter is by its very nature close to a deed, so courtesy would be to talk to the deed owner before making changes to perimeter tiles around their deed.  The deed holder is the closest neighbour and has put down roots, so deserves some consideration.

 

It isn't about ownership and who gets to tell who what to do, but about finding the best way to do what you want without interfering with what others want to do. 

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8 minutes ago, TheTrickster said:

Sorry, but no, a perimeter does not belong to the deed.  It is a buffer designed to keep a minimum separation between deeds as a specific no-mans land.  I does not belong to anyone.  Nobody has any more right to a perimeter than anyone else.  A lot of the "perimeter wars" occur as much because deed-holders can't accept that they have no authority over what people do in perimeters as because of what people do in perimeters.

 

That said, a perimeter is by its very nature close to a deed, so courtesy would be to talk to the deed owner before making changes to perimeter tiles around their deed.  The deed holder is the closest neighbour and has put down roots, so deserves some consideration.

 

It isn't about ownership and who gets to tell who what to do, but about finding the best way to do what you want without interfering with what others want to do. 

 

So let's assume I paid for 10 tiles of perimeter - I paid and it isn't mine. Woot? 

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1 minute ago, Platyna said:

 

So let's assume I paid for 10 tiles of perimeter - I paid and it isn't mine. Woot? 

 

Correct. You paid for a bigger buffer zone between your deed and the next possible or actual deed site, at a cheaper rate than you paid for the on-deed tiles which are yours. The settlement contract/resize settlement window are pretty clear about what it is you're paying for. If you reject the notion that you should have pay for anything you don't own, it's easy enough to just accept the 5 tiles of free perimeter and leave it at that.

Once again, though, a thread about common courtesies seems to have been derailed back to your own personal bugbear of the moment.

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Well, you can tell the perimeter is no man's land etc. but this against't human territorial nature. This thread started from someone cutting trees on other person perimeter. Most wars are about perimeters and it should be addressed by the rule makers. Perimeter comes with the deed, you pay for it, some things on the perimeter are guarded by the deed permissions. It is more deed's mayors than anyone else's - the game mechanics itself proves it. 

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29 minutes ago, Platyna said:

Well, you can tell the perimeter is no man's land etc. but this against't human territorial nature. This thread started from someone cutting trees on other person perimeter. Most wars are about perimeters and it should be addressed by the rule makers. Perimeter comes with the deed, you pay for it, some things on the perimeter are guarded by the deed permissions. It is more deed's mayors than anyone else's - the game mechanics itself proves it. 

And because we so fundamentally disagree on this, imagine what happens in-game if one of of steps on the other's toes.  Resolution is almost impossible.  

 

The rules/wiki/explanations are quite clear on the purpose of the perimeter - to ensure that there is always a right-of-way that doesn't belong to the deed.  If, with that explanation, some still hold that the perimeter is part of the deed's holdings, disagreement is almost assured.  The mechanism of allowing "extra" perimeter to be paid for does only add to the confusion.  5-tile buffers always happen, but the bought buffer should be a separate kind of permission set.  The 5-tile is "public access" and should remain so.  The extra bought buffer should be a "set back" - meaning it is owned but cannot have buildings on it. Unfortunately it isn't at the moment, but a system where you pay for what you and you get what you pay for would help alleviate arguments, I think.

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9 hours ago, Amata said:

you have both made it onto 
~ Amata's Sht List ~
a very small, and very easily avoidable list.

No doubt, this news will likely make you smugly happy. 
Have fun with that. 

It seems to me that you have not made any attempt to understand what these two posters are actually trying to say.  And statements like the one you have made above suggest that you have little to no tolerance for any worldview except your own.  If you disagree with someone, then of course go ahead and state your reasons why.  But to go out of your way to publicly announce that someone is on your “sht list” is counterproductive, rude, and uncalled for.

Edited by Minnie

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I would like to propose a couple additional common courtesies:

 

- We should understand that different people may define the concept of courtesy differently, and respect others’ right to think differently than we do.

 

- We should avoid using the concept of courtesy as a vehicle for our attempts to control other people’s behavior by labeling a certain way of behaving as courteous, and implying that anyone who doesn’t behave in that way is not courteous (or worse).


In other words:  Just because you choose to do things a certain way in the game (e.g. you replant trees, bash stumps, make non-zigzagging paths, consult the neighbors before you do any damn thing at all, etc.) DOESN’T MEAN OTHER PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE TO DO THESE THINGS AS WELL, and it doesn’t mean that if they don’t do them, they are uncourteous (or worse).

 

This whole “courtesy” thing is starting to seem a bit too much like some kind of insidious social control experiment.  It’s weirding me out frankly.

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On 11/12/2020 at 10:48 AM, Platyna said:

@AlkhadiasThis person griefed me when I was a total noobie, there was a massive drama, tickets every other day, not only he and his friends pestered me but also people who came to work on my deed, those are some toxic people who removed me from the alliance because I cut off trees on my perimeter, and then they were telling me I can't have a highway on my perimeter because it "looks unnatural" with complete disregard to the game rules, I ignored them and built a road with some friends and I had to call a GM because he and his buddy tried to pry one of the lanes before markers were laid. Then he dug 150-200 slope "all natural looking" hole in my perimeter and moved to another server, but he keeps on his innuendos, for the Vynora's sake, this guy never gives up. 😉 

I own 3 deeds, and I don't like "deed it or lose it". First it isn't in the rule set so shouldn't be applied, and second - this brings some heartless approach that people who can't afford a deed can't have any property. If I leave my wallet on the table in a restaurant and someone will take the money from it, it will be still theft. When I go to shop and forget to lock the door and someone will take something from my house, it will be still theft. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting that after all the drama the only person banned by the GMs was you? 

 

To add a little context to your post you fell out with me because after all the help I give you ( helping you find your deed spot at the start with ruinier, making nails for you as you refused to BS and helping you flatten your land ) I didnt rush back to help you bash a wall down as I was busy, and you went bat **** crazy over it. 

 

you didn't have perimeter at the road spot at the time, mad hatter deed did at the bottom of the road, my deed did at the top corner and ruin ridge farm did. you deed was tiny until we decided to leave the area, you came and ripped up the road we had built, making access to ruin ridge farm impossible, GM's told you to fix it too.

 

After the whole of local mass reported you , you ended up being banned after refusing to follow the GM's instructions, if you weren't the problem how come you got a ban?

 

You stole, you lied and you caused drama. so lets not try to change history eh>?  you are by far the most toxic player i have met in any online game by a long shot and even now people complain about the way you go on!  Even on the new servers people talk about the nastiness you cause in game, you must be so proud.

 

 

the 200 slope down was on my deed to make a mine, after you tried to fence off access to the public mine which again a GM told you to stop it. I moved servers as I didn't like the fact you kept saying your were going to kill yourself if you didn't get your own way and the fighting you did with many different people in local every day, and I decided it just wasn't worth the time and effort anymore,  so now I just like to point out when your changing history to make some kind of point which you do often when in fact you do the very things you complain about!

But I will pull you up when you lie about the past ;) !

 

 

But on the plus side this game tends to have a really good group of fantastic players and the bad apples are few and far between,  you are the only person who I "bumped heads" with out of everyone I met, so sometimes just cutting your losses and moving on is the right thing to do, as I haven't looked back and to get back on point common courtesies does go a long way and really doesn't take much either.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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55 minutes ago, Minnie said:

I would like to propose a couple additional common courtesies:

 

- We should understand that different people may define the concept of courtesy differently, and respect others’ right to think differently than we do.

 

- We should avoid using the concept of courtesy as a vehicle for our attempts to control other people’s behavior by labeling a certain way of behaving as courteous, and implying that anyone who doesn’t behave in that way is not courteous (or worse).


In other words:  Just because you choose to do things a certain way in the game (e.g. you replant trees, bash stumps, make non-zigzagging paths, consult the neighbors before you do any damn thing at all, etc.) DOESN’T MEAN OTHER PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE TO DO THESE THINGS AS WELL, and it doesn’t mean that if they don’t do them, they are uncourteous (or worse).

 

This whole “courtesy” thing is starting to seem a bit too much like some kind of insidious social control experiment.  It’s weirding me out frankly.

Hmm....Yeah, I know that if there was to be alot of guidelines to follow or even rules to follow that I would feel far to restricted in how I act for example.

One of the common things that I get told is to clean up after myself.  Like when cutting down trees or even when mining rocks. I will either leave it alone to decay away or clean it up at some point.  But there can be this feeling of having to clean up the area to make it look "Nice" and "Tidy"   Why does it have to always look nice and tidy?   Why can't things just decay away?  If resources don't get used before they decay away then, that is okay as well. Things in wurm grow back after some time and reform.  The majority of it, I would say.

-----------------------------
Here is a story from when I was more new:

Spoiler

 

The village that I was in had the permission enabled for "Destroy buildings" for everyone.  Now, I like to find loopholes to further my own gains or to help myself in some way.

I would explore around the massive village and search out buildings that had not been used in ages.  along with confirmation from villagers by me asking "if the person was still around" or "what is that building/land being used for?" 


Then I would wait until no one was online and travel to that location and break down one of the walls.  Go inside and take out all of the valuable items from bsbs and anything else of value like maybe a rug or something.  Then I would build the wall back up again, like nothing had happened.  I would then either take the resources to my own area for myself to use.  Or I would use my new vast collection of goods to share with other villagers in the community.  Or I would drop off items into the community area for other people to use.

My logic was: "If someone has not been around for over 6 months - 1 year or more then their items could be better used by myself and the community.  I did feel bad sometimes though but I did get excitement like I was playing some kind of robber, trying to sneak around, making sure not to be seen.  More so when people came online. 

 

I did also break down some locked gates in the village which lead to un-used areas  with land and buildings. - (Then built the gate back up but with no lock) That land and buildings then got used by other players.  The mayor even moved in some newbies into the once locked areas.  

 

 

-------------------

In other words:  I will do things that come under common courtesies but I might not always go along with them.  I might also look out for ways to get things done in a more easy manner.  Or even to help me claim land, resources, buildings...etc.   I got a big area in the village because I just went and started to use it and no one else was using it. I did ask if no one was using it but after that confirmation, I then started my move in.

Sometimes that mindset/playstyle can work in your favour and sometimes not.  Just got to read the situation and see what is going on. Then make the best judgement in the moment sometimes.

 

I like to be friendly and help out others but I also like to help out myself to and sometimes I can't be bothered with doing the "polite" thing.

Edited by Zexos
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7 hours ago, Amata said:

 

 

heya Platyna, sometimes your writing style, tone, or manner makes it hard for me to tell if you are approaching something like this to say it is a matter of courtesy, or a matter of rule of law. 

Given the topic of this thread is about discussing player courtesies, I am interpreting the above quoted reply as a suggestion that leaving perimeter lands alone should be the default common courtesy, as even when items or objects, etc, are left out on a perimeter, the game provides us with obvious mechanics (inspect the tile) to make a reasonable guess at who is the proper owner of the items, et al. 

 

Does that sound correct? 

 

I prefer to have a clear, well-defined, logic rule set. But in this case for me there is no difference if it is a law or courtesy law, it only matters if people do not mess with my deed or its closest surroundings and I don't have to fight for it or see my friends fighting and quitting because of that. 

 

I will never understand what is the problem with my style of writing, I always try to write in a correct, beautiful and clear way. 😉 

 

Edited by Platyna

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*sigh*

You know the world is going to hell, when people start trolling in a topic about courtesies.


Since this entire "discussion" is becoming more and more useless, could a mod please close it before things get out of control?

 

 

Thorin :) 

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Seems the thread has run its course, indeed. Locked

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