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ChampagneDragon

Let's Talk Common Courtesies....

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Maybe the bigger question is:  Why chop down trees or dig up dirt next to a village?   Even more so in their perimeter.    There is a whole wide server with trees, dirt, sand...etc so why in some instances would you choose to pick a place where people live when you've got the whole map to play in?

The deed it or lose it thing made me so paranoid when I had a deed on Pristine.  I kept on expanding my deed more and more every month, just so that more trees could be protected, in the area which I had made nice looking.  Though then that made me feel in a rush to deed them all before someone came along and chopped them down.  It was paranoia.  I did not even need that much space either.  It was a waste of money.   I would not mind if someone did chop down trees but as long as they replanted.  I even created community farm areas that were not on deed land so that people could come and collect cotton from the farms but I still had the paranoia there.

Someone did come along one day who was looking around the island for a place to deed and they talked to me first and asked about the area....etc.  Which was very kind and nice of them.  They did not stay in the area though.  They were just exploring around.

My line of logic is:  If the village is falling apart, animals are dying and well, there is no deed there anymore then it is free pickings.  I can do anything in that area because no one is around.  It is wild lands.  As soon as I get near a village, I clean up after myself, plant new trees (Most of the time) and yeah, I know where to go if I want to mess around alot - Away from the village.  Maybe this is more easy on the South Servers where there is more wild land.  Might be more hard to find the wild on the newer servers.

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2 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

i live on a mountain and everything within about 2 map tiles of it is deforested already, i'd probably thank you in pm's for clearing the random sprouts that pop up from time to time. seriously it's hundreds of them a week you have no idea how fast forests regrow, a 50x50 grass field if it's surrounded by trees will be entirely trees within a few weeks, theres a reason every single server is 90% forests 10% steppe/sand

Lol ok, your specific situation is different. and for now, i wont replant anything and i will be chopping down all sprouts in my area that are not centered. i think they will go to another area after a few weeks of that. 

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More common courtesies to get this thread back on track

  • Don't intentionally mine into active player's mines
  • Don't mine in other's cave projects like canals without permission (bonus points if you present a visual design plan)
  • Don't build a colossus without consulting  your neighbours, you may be ruining their view
  • Build walls around large off-deed slopes to prevent random adventurerers falling in
  • Keep gates unlocked to allow players somewhere to hide from aggressive creatures
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Never gate a mine off from the outside, its literally only a noob trap. put a mine door on you r mine instead.
 

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1 hour ago, azuleslight said:

1. not in enforcement, unless the GM's have started to follow rules instead of do what they want. that isn't the case, they can say w/e they want in forums....but what GM's do in game is entirely different.

2. to the point, if someone makes a 40 slope encasing your entire deed, but in the perimeter, according to your logic that isn't grieving. When we both know it is, and if a GM is being fair will ban the player making the slopes. 

Deed it or lose it is not the rule, official or otherwise, but "dont be a D-bag" is LITERALLY a rule. and that actual stated rule trumps any perceived rule the veteran players may have come to adopt.

 

 

Sorry if this seems out of the conversational flow.  I had tried to post earlier and it disappeared into the aether, so this is an approximation.

 

No, that is not literally the rule.  Here is the literal rule.

 

Play Nice Or We Will Rip Your Heart Out (griefing)
Definition: Activities that are not constructive or with deliberate intent to do harm to others.
A ) You may not block access to deeds, merchants, or structures not belonging to you.
B ) You may not call guards to kill penned animals on deeds you are not a citizen of. (They ain't hurting you!)
C ) You may not steal deeds from the original mayor or residing citizens.
 - resident citizens on democratic deeds may vote a new mayor for any reason.
D ) You may not intentionally create player traps. (i.e. Using siege shields to trap other players)
 
Punishment: You may be given a directive, warned, or even banned based on the situation.

 

Blocking access is defined as griefing, whereas cutting trees is not mentioned.  Any GM that threatens a ban for cutting off-deed trees is out on a limb.  

 

I am all for some common courtesy and etiquette being advised, even strongly advised, but I am against a rule that deems the perimeter to be in the domain of the holder of an adjacent deed.

 

One consideration, I cannot recall how long I was playing before I made a sickle, but I know it was a little while.  It doesn't do any good urging new players to replant if they have not yet the means to cut sprouts.  I have no idea why it must be a sickle that cuts sprouts, and in fact IRL it is more likely to be a knife of some kind.  Perhaps is the carving knife (which I think is currently a starter item) could cut sprouts, then a newbie from day one can both cut trees and plant new ones, so the habit would form early.

 

 

Edited by TheTrickster

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1 hour ago, Zexos said:


My line of logic is:  If the village is falling apart, animals are dying and well, there is no deed there anymore then it is free pickings.  I can do anything in that area because no one is around.  It is wild lands.  As soon as I get near a village, I clean up after myself, plant new trees (Most of the time) and yeah, I know where to go if I want to mess around alot - Away from the village.  Maybe this is more easy on the South Servers where there is more wild land.  Might be more hard to find the wild on the newer servers.

 

 

I have often wondered about that deep hole west of Tiki.  In the middle of a wildish looking forest, what looks like a single tile corner maybe 50 dirts lower than the surrounds.

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1 hour ago, TheTrickster said:

 

 

I have often wondered about that deep hole west of Tiki.  In the middle of a wildish looking forest, what looks like a single tile corner maybe 50 dirts lower than the surrounds.

Lol that was not me. 

 

What was me was the big dirt valley in the woods with a cave entrance that leads into my cave.  Along with the red path that leads down to it.  Might be getting bigger sometime soon. Need more dirt 😉

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Just to say again, this isn't about the trees. The trees are replanted, and wild growthed back up to a nice old stage..

 

It's about common courtesies in Wurm.

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Fix me if I am wrong @TheTricksterbut chopping someone else decorative trees, or pines in the orchards/alleys or trimming the hedges enclosing some area that clearly the creator wished to enclose IMHO falls into this:

Quote

Definition: Activities that are not constructive or with deliberate intent to do harm to others.

 

The play nice rule and no stealing rule has a quite decently defined scope, we just need GM support for it. 

 

If you trim the other person hedge to allow animals to come and graze on their fields just to make a passage from your deed through their deed despite the fact they made sure you have a comfy passage 15 tiles away - you are being an ass.

If you destroy highway sideways you have a GM order to stay away from - you are being an ass and you break a direct GM order so you should get your sorry ass banned.

If you chop willows that are clearly a decoration, someone planted to make the surrounding more pleasant - you are an ass. 

If you trim the hedge and then get inside an orchard and you chop trees, that are not even old, despite all the forests around - you are an ass.

If you know thy neighbour wants a nice view and you come to their perimeter and plant damn high trees to obscure it - you are an ass.

If you enter someone's house and take the horses - you are an ass. 

Etc. etc. etc.

 

To make a long story short: obey the rules, don't be an ass. 

 

Disclaimer: no asses beyond this point. 😉 

Edited by Platyna

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9 minutes ago, Platyna said:

Fix me if I am wrong @TheTricksterbut chopping someone else decorative trees, or pines in the orchards/alleys or trimming the hedges enclosing some area that clearly the creator wished to enclose IMHO falls into this:

 

The play nice rule and no stealing rule has a quite decently defined scope, we just need GM support for it. 

 

If you trim the other person hedge to allow animals to come and graze on their fields just to make a passage from your deed through their deed despite the fact they made sure you have a comfy passage 15 tiles away - you are being an ass.

If you destroy highway sideways you have a GM order to stay away from - you are being an ass and you break a direct GM order so you should get your sorry ass banned.

If you chop willows that are clearly a decoration, someone planted to make the surrounding more pleasant - you are an ass. 

If you trim the hedge and then get inside an orchard and you chop trees, that are not even old, despite all the forests around - you are an ass.

If you know thy neighbour wants a nice view and you come to their perimeter and plant damn high trees to obscure it - you are an ass.

If you enter someone's house and take the horses - you are an ass. 

Etc. etc. etc.

 

To make a long story short: obey the rules, don't be an ass. 

 

Disclaimer: no asses beyond this point. 😉 

 

I am playing devil's advocate a bit, but what if I want high trees on my deed because I like their look and consider them decorative, but hate willows because they blind me when travelling.  Why are my trees on my deed ass-making but your trees on yours not?  

 

A lot of other stuff is well defined by the rules, but we are speaking about courtesies, which are harder to set in stone, and trees being also less set in stone naturally become a major talking point, because some people think planting a decorative row of trees off-deed declares those trees owned, or heritage-protected or something while others think they are not.

 

There is, near my house, a very neat grove of oak trees, in an area surrounded by a stone wall with a road running in a straight line through the middle - all off-deed.  Are they okay to cut or not?  I have cut down a few of them, but always planted a replacement, but I have never asked permission simply because; of whom would I ask it?  There are deeds all around, houses all around, groves and forests all around, but nobody currently active (in the last year or so) seems to have anything to do with these trees.  There are two other large areas nearby that are behind walls but again do not seem to "belong" to anyone active.  Someone seems to have patched the boundary wall of one of these areas, but none of it is even in anybody's perimeter.  

 

That "Activities that are not constructive" is quit poorly worded.  If I cut down a whole heap of trees in order to build a boat, how is that not constructive?  If the trees are not on-deed, who could I be deliberately harming by cutting them?  

 

Not that I would do this, but I can see how easy it is for someone to do it with either no ill intent at all or even with ill intent that can be easily denied.

 

 

 

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Maybe the best advice to give newbies for common courtesy is a saying we have around here;

 

Quote

"If it isn't yours then leave it how you found it."

 

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4 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

I am playing devil's advocate a bit, but what if I want high trees on my deed because I like their look and consider them decorative, but hate willows because they blind me when travelling.  Why are my trees on my deed ass-making but your trees on yours not?  

 

I am not sure if I understand what are you talking about. @ChampagneDragonsaid there were some trees planted for a decoration. If her trees on her perimeter annoy you then don't go there or talk to her, so she applied some good road building practices and made sanded/mossed/paved/lawned sideways (one of the points you quoted is that someone is replacing my perimeter highway with trees that will ingrow on it and obstruct the view, so I understand your point). You know people communicate, NT people can communicate even better than I do. 😛 

 

4 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

A lot of other stuff is well defined by the rules, but we are speaking about courtesies, which are harder to set in stone, and trees being also less set in stone naturally become a major talking point, because some people think planting a decorative row of trees off-deed declares those trees owned, or heritage-protected or something while others think they are not.

 

If you have to force someone to be nice, then it is no longer courtesy, and since we (I hope) already established the fact some people are not courteous, we need some rules well said and upheld that will ensure that we will enjoy the game instead fighting with each other and hating each other and suspecting each other...etc. etc.

 

4 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

There is, near my house, a very neat grove of oak trees, in an area surrounded by a stone wall with a road running in a straight line through the middle - all off-deed.  Are they okay to cut or not?  I have cut down a few of them, but always planted a replacement, but I have never asked permission simply because; of whom would I ask it?  There are deeds all around, houses all around, groves and forests all around, but nobody currently active (in the last year or so) seems to have anything to do with these trees.  There are two other large areas nearby that are behind walls but again do not seem to "belong" to anyone active.  Someone seems to have patched the boundary wall of one of these areas, but none of it is even in anybody's perimeter.  

 

I think we all, or at least a vast majority of us, can distinguish an orchard or an alley from just some random trees, especially if we are talking about fenced area on a deed perimeter. If it is not on deed, not on perimeter and obviously no person cares and you cut a few and replant then I guess no one should do a big fuss. I think if you visit me and see my oak orchard it is looks like something that I would rather prefer not to be cut (it is on deed now). There is something we call a basic common sense. 

 

4 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

That "Activities that are not constructive" is quit poorly worded.  If I cut down a whole heap of trees in order to build a boat, how is that not constructive?  If the trees are not on-deed, who could I be deliberately harming by cutting them?  

 

Maybe indeed it is poorly worded, but there is a definition on griefing even on Wikipedia. If you cut a whole heap of trees that were a groomed decoration or an orchard (orchards are made for sprouts or for fruits not for lumber) to build a boat, even if you just can travel a bit and get lumber where it usually should be obtained - from a forest, then this is not constructive, because you just made another player sad and mad at you. You want to build a boat get some wood from a forest.

 

Edited by Platyna

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Once more to the "Deed it or lose it"-Taliban:

  • "Deed it or lose it" is not a rule
  • "Deed it or lose it" is not a right to vandalize or take
  • "Play nice or we rip your heart out" is a rule

 

Deed it or lose it is a warning to those having precious stuff off deed outside houses, also a warning to squatters that their house protection is only limited (could land in perimeters).

 

Those fervently advocating that "Deed it or lose it" is carte blanche to play rudely miss the point.

 

Edited by Ekcin
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4 hours ago, Platyna said:

Fix me if I am wrong @TheTricksterbut chopping someone else decorative trees, or pines in the orchards/alleys or trimming the hedges enclosing some area that clearly the creator wished to enclose IMHO falls into this:

 

The play nice rule and no stealing rule has a quite decently defined scope, we just need GM support for it. 

 

If you trim the other person hedge to allow animals to come and graze on their fields just to make a passage from your deed through their deed despite the fact they made sure you have a comfy passage 15 tiles away - you are being an ass.

If you destroy highway sideways you have a GM order to stay away from - you are being an ass and you break a direct GM order so you should get your sorry ass banned.

If you chop willows that are clearly a decoration, someone planted to make the surrounding more pleasant - you are an ass. 

If you trim the hedge and then get inside an orchard and you chop trees, that are not even old, despite all the forests around - you are an ass.

If you know thy neighbour wants a nice view and you come to their perimeter and plant damn high trees to obscure it - you are an ass.

If you enter someone's house and take the horses - you are an ass. 

Etc. etc. etc.

 

To make a long story short: obey the rules, don't be an ass. 

 

Disclaimer: no asses beyond this point. 😉 

 

your also an ass if you dig up a road going to someones deed just because you think a straight highway would be better than a natural looking road, and then saying " its not a highway I can do what I want"

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6 minutes ago, Badvoc said:

 

your also an ass if you dig up a road going to someones deed just because you think a straight highway would be better than a natural looking road, and then saying " its not a highway I can do what I want"

I had this issue when highways were introduced. 

Soon after them, someone, completely random with god's mission or haunted mind just came, and built a highway next to our area. Beside the fact i never ever wanted (back then) to be connected to any highway and I prefered to stay out of this system. That person also completely destroyed old forest paths and roads, shortcuts that I've been using for years and the ones I prefered over stupid highway. Everything without asking, anything. So yeah some people have hard times figuring out, that not everything what's new is welcomed by all others. 

But what my main point is, I won't ###### about it to any GM, moderator etc. I didn't ###### about it on forum either. It wasn't my land, and even if I've build a road years ago it still wasn't mine, so I can't just simply cry all over if I didn't secured my nearest area by deeding or fencing. It's not on my deed, not on my perimeter I did nothing to prevent it- so I'm not in position to complain. 

You may say that Deed it or lose it is not a rule. But it has more common and practical sense than many of GMs written, artificial, imaginary forum rules. 

We all try to be generaly nice, that's the way Wurm's community lives, usually without any reminders. We can live based on our trust in community for many, many years, but we can never be absolute sure that nothing bad happens. That's why, even common sense should give us a hint to secure stuff we don't wanna lose.

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@PlatynaI have also cut down a few oak near you, inside a fenced (but not completely closed off) area  😉

 

I am pretty sure no-one even noticed because a) I carefully selected interior trees, 2) I made sure to replant and iii) I cleaned up all my rubbish.

 

Had anyone been around, either in local or in my friends list or even a few I pm-poked I would have asked first, but since nobody was I opted for "forgiveness is easier than permission" and tried to make forgiveness as trivial as possible by minimizing my impact.  I think I was courteous in that respect.  Maybe "If you can't ask, don't do anything that can't be easily reversed" is another etiquette pointer worth considering.

 

I do agree that rules in this regard help people who want to do the right thing in working out how best to do that.

 

I think that this has actually been a good discussion in relation to the OP.  It has highlighted, I think, that it is at the margins where the most aggravation seems to occur (i.e. deed perimeters, "gaps" in "the rools" etc) so that is where neighbourly etiquette becomes most important.

 

So... Here are my offerings for pointers to new players on how to be good be good neighbours;

  1. Observe the golden rule, treat others as you would be treated.  This applies to their environment as well.
  2. If the environment is not obviously uninhabited/unowned/unloved then ask around.
  3. The higher the impact of your actions (e.g. trees regrow by themselves, terraforming can be reversed but with effort, bridges canals dams affect travel) the more you should communicate about it.
  4. If you don't own it, as much as possible leave it as you found it.
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@AlkhadiasThis person griefed me when I was a total noobie, there was a massive drama, tickets every other day, not only he and his friends pestered me but also people who came to work on my deed, those are some toxic people who removed me from the alliance because I cut off trees on my perimeter, and then they were telling me I can't have a highway on my perimeter because it "looks unnatural" with complete disregard to the game rules, I ignored them and built a road with some friends and I had to call a GM because he and his buddy tried to pry one of the lanes before markers were laid. Then he dug 150-200 slope "all natural looking" hole in my perimeter and moved to another server, but he keeps on his innuendos, for the Vynora's sake, this guy never gives up. 😉 

I own 3 deeds, and I don't like "deed it or lose it". First it isn't in the rule set so shouldn't be applied, and second - this brings some heartless approach that people who can't afford a deed can't have any property. If I leave my wallet on the table in a restaurant and someone will take the money from it, it will be still theft. When I go to shop and forget to lock the door and someone will take something from my house, it will be still theft. 

 

@TheTricksterI can't recall any fenced oaks close to me (there are many wild growing ones though) besides the ones I have on deed, and they are part of Vynora memorial, I check every few days to care for them, so they do not shrivel or spawn seedlings, and they are deeded, if you cut any of them that would make me sad. :( There is a different if someone has a utility plantation and a plantation made for aesthetic reasons. If someone keeps an orchard just to have sprouts or maybe some logs to finish items with oak - they wouldn't probably cry if someone cut a few trees and replant them. Butchering things put in a certain pattern for aesthetic reasons is a different thing.

 

p1H0AMx.png

 

 

Edited by Platyna

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i'll repeat it if you want, because thats all that you should need..

 

deed it, or lose it

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There are no common courtesies, everybody is a ######, the only question is to what degree.

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3 hours ago, Oreo said:

i'll repeat it if you want, because thats all that you should need..

 

deed it, or lose it

 

Thank your for your constructive and extremely narrowminded point of view.

 

Now since you're one of those very few players making $100K a month, would you be so kind to deed it all, before you lose it?


Thorin :) 

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“Deed it or lose it” is not a rule; it is simply a fact.  It is meaningless to debate whether it is or isn’t a rule, or should or shouldn’t be a rule—because it is just the way things are.  It’s like debating whether water is wet.  If you try to cut down a tree on someone’s deed, the guards kindly inform you that you are not allowed to do that there.  If you try to cut down a tree in the perimeter, they go on about their business and let you go on about yours.

 

You don’t have any claim to land you don’t own, and you don’t get to be in charge of what does or doesn’t happen on that land.  By building or planting clearing or terraforming or paving on undeeded land (including perimeters), you are assuming the risk that your work may be undone.  Others have just as much right as you do to build or plant or clear or terraform or pave—or even deed over—that land.  

 

We may hope or wish that others will do certain things that we term “courtesies.”  But nobody has any obligation to do those things simply because we want them to.  And disappointment is guaranteed if we naively expect these “courtesies” to be observed by one and all.

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"Deed it or lose it", while I fully agree with this to an extent and have even used this phrase myself, in this case I think it's more a decoy from the actual problem at hand: the areas where you can't deed. There is a point where deeding becomes too expensive and where do we draw that line between what's deedable or not? Are we supposed to deed a 200x200 area in order to prevent anything from happening or do we hope that most people at least have a sense of ethics?

 

Truth is, there has to be a line to where "deed it or lose it" makes sense, but then going over that line, common courtesies make more sense. We have all kinds of mentalities on the internet, from the "leet" pvpers who don't care if they make a moat around some random deed "for lols" to people who have a sense of community and want to help out every neighbour possible and everything in between. Trying to "enforce" such courtesies is really going to be nothing more than a nightmare especially when players of the types I just mentioned come and go constantly.

Edited by Yumi
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Dude it or lease it. A defidudy dudit, dea.

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1 hour ago, Minnie said:

“Deed it or lose it” is not a rule; it is simply a fact.  It is meaningless to debate whether it is or isn’t a rule, or should or shouldn’t be a rule—because it is just the way things are.

It is a fact only to some extent. And it is, as I wrote repeatedly, a warning to those who may lose things off or without deed, be it to ruthless fellow players, be it to decay. All things inside a locked house, a cart, or a ship, are protected from being taken away by ruthless players. So they are not lost off deed.

 

It is in no way a right to act as if "deed it or lose it" were an entitlement to make others lose off deed. Most times, perpetrators of ruthless or heartless conduct will get away, simply because Wurm is no theme park, and GM are no nannies. But those acting that way are always walking on a slippery slope, and may even earn GM intervention, and much more often contempt and reaction in kind by fellow players. Generally, ruthless behaviour is likely to create a toxic atmosphere with the danger of escalating tit for tat actions leading into a vicious spiral. 

 

Possibilities to make life miserable to others inside the set of written rules are close to infinite, and to name and ban every case is impossible. That is what the "play nice" rule is for. In fact, polite, considerate, and respectful conduct is likely to make life easier to everyone.

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A bad neighbour is probably making themselves more miserable than all the other people they are making miserable.

 

IRL and in Wurm.

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