ChampagneDragon

Let's Talk Common Courtesies....

Recommended Posts

So after having the willows on my harbor (one tile out of deed) cut down, I realized that with the influx of new players some common courtesies we take for granted in Wurm may not be known. Maybe if we discuss them here, they'll be more common knowledge.. or maybe it won't matter?

 

Anyway a couple I have thought about:

 

1. Roads. When building roads it is common courtesy to talk to those in the area where a road is going before destroying terrain. Maybe they have plans already, and you can work together..

 

2. Cutting trees in people's perimeter is a big no no, as is any type of terraforming.

 

Let's hear yours..

Edited by ChampagneDragon
  • Like 15
  • Cat 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the above pretty much sums it up. While we do have the general "deed it or lose it" stance, there are common courtesies players can at least try to follow - it's simple things and makes everyone's lives easier and nicer in Wurm. What @ChampagneDragon said about roads and tree cutting could happen to many and IMO stuff in the perimeter - at least talk to the owner before you do something so you can see if they're good with it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe that the 'Deed it or Lose it' mindset is the fairest that there is, due to the nature of resources and such in this game...however I also believe that major projects should always be discussed with the community as mentioned above. 

If an action is going to affect the local community, such as altering roads, altering coastline/canals, chopping of plantations that have been widely used by the community, adjusting of local resources such as clay/tar etc - then I believe you should try make a conscious effort to discuss it with everyone nearby first...but things such as trees being chopped and such that are just around, I am okay with not being spoken to about.

 

Recently a player had just wiped a bunch of out of perim/off of deed Oaks nearby for WC and replanted the ones that were wiped out too close to some deeds and yet a GM was contacted to be involved - so you can't win, even if you try to be courtesy when taking resources - just remember that in this game, nothing is yours unless its deeded and that new or old players, if the resources are needed, they will be taken.

 

Also, ban all players that mess with canals and public waterways. Unforgivable. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For everyone saying deed it or lose it, you are wrong, and the GM's of the game disagree with you and have said as much in CA HELP. As the OFFICIAL rule of "don't be a ###### and ruin others fun" is something that CAN and WILL get you banned. So common curtsey isn't just a nicety you bestow here and there on a whim, its a game requirement. 

So if we chat and you continue your rude behavior and get banned "cause deed it or lose it" mentality, you have only yourself to blame.

NOW BACK TO OP'S QUESTION:

I hate when people purposefully cut down the forest and don't replant. I get you need to skill up and dont begrudge you that. But for the love of VYN replant the tree's!

 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@azuleslight In the scenario of cutting down trees outside of someone's perimeter and deed, a sustainable resource, deed it or lose it would be fair and I highly doubt a GM would take action against a player for chopping them down. There is a big difference between maliciously altering someones land, and someone taking available resources. If the OP wished to keep those trees safe from those looking to acquire willow logs, or Woodcutting XP, then he could have extended his deed to cover them. If you wish to protect resources, deed them, otherwise they can and most probably will be harvested by other players. I believe the CA Help is more or so referring to people terraforming land around areas, more so than taking available resources.

 

Needless to say, if those actions ended up in players being banned, we would have far less problems than we do. Take Deli for example - sand being nuked in deed perims, terraforming to make travel to deeds harder, malicious trees being planted that slowly turn areas into an unattractive, single species haunted area - and said players are still active despite these issues been going on for almost a decade now.

 

Don't give people the wrong idea -  IF YOU DO NOT DEED RESOURCES, YOU CANNOT CHOOSE WHEN THEY ARE TAKEN - it's a sandbox game guys.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you care that much about those trees then just deed them. Yes, it's not very nice of people to cut those down, but at the same time you already held the power to prevent it in the first place and chose not to use it.

In the case of off deed resources, whether they are on perimeter or not, deed it or lose it sounds about right. After all we can't fault anybody for mining an utmost vein which is in perimeter, similarly I can't fault anybody for cutting down a tree that's not claimed by a deed. Now if they cut down the trees without using any of the resources then that obviously changes the story somewhat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Ecrir said:

If you care that much about those trees then just deed them. Yes, it's not very nice of people to cut those down, but at the same time you already held the power to prevent it in the first place and chose not to use it.

In the case of off deed resources, whether they are on perimeter or not, deed it or lose it sounds about right. After all we can't fault anybody for mining an utmost vein which is in perimeter, similarly I can't fault anybody for cutting down a tree that's not claimed by a deed. Now if they cut down the trees without using any of the resources then that obviously changes the story somewhat.

This isn't about RULE. it's about common courtesies. Big difference. 

 

I am not making an issue about the trees. I'm trying to start a freakin discussion on common courtesies that make Wurm better for us all. See the difference?

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree about trees and terraforming perimeters. It's a scum move. Also deeding up against someone elses deed. Deeding over highways and messing them up too, even if the links are maintained, people use highways, not just wagoners. Bashing fences to steal a newbies only wild horse.

 

Just because something is legal, doesn't make it good.

Edited by Kelody
  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a tree... if you REALLY cared about it, you'd have had them on your deed. maybe plant some on your farms? you lose 1/9th of your farm but they can't be cut down by anyone other than you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The general consensus isn't whether or not to deed it or not to prevent loosing it;

 

the general consensus is that this isn't an SP game where you can terraform or cut down anything you want.

 

It's a MULTI-PLAYER game, meaning you have to deal with other players who like to use certain resources too, who have worked to get something done, either by terraforming, by planting trees, building a highway or a (boat-) tunnel.

I'm playing this game for a bit over 5 years now, I've made the mistake once to sand one tile next to a highway; which later turned out to be the first tile of someone's perimeter; without asking that player.
I've also seen how a certain player messed up highways near Whitefay and at Newspring to expand his market deeds - using the "Deed it or loose it" excuse.
I've seen how players messed up a boat- / road tunnel by mining down to max depth, because they wanted to make it a heritage site; and then abandonned the project.
I've seen how a player dug down a part of an island to get enough dirt to build bridgesupports.
I'v seen how that player basically blocked off a part of a lake and some deeds in that area, to use the above mentioned dirt to build a dam between his / her deed and the shore; using some small bridges to avoid this "brdige" being considered griefing. Afterall, the bridges make it possible to sail "through" it.

 

All these things have two things in common;

 

1) They're all done without communication with other players; resulting in a group being angry and then getting the (here it is again!) "Deed it or loose it" comment.

2) They're all done by players who've been playing this game for at least a year and often a lot longer. Some were even done by players who were playing this game longer as I am.

And imho  that's the most worrying thing.

If a new player does anything like this, half the server is on fire and usually the comments are scaring that new player away. Either to another server or not returning at all.

If it's a veteran player, it's usually "deed it or loose it!", the veteran player shrugs his / her shoulders and continues the same practices elsewhere.

 

And all of this can be avoided by the simple means of communication.

If there's a deed nearby, check local for anyone being there. If there's no-one online, check niarja for the - possible - deed owner, ask around and leave a message at  the forum.

 

If you can't even have that kind of politeness, you may as well leave WO and better start playing WU, where you can create and ruin your own server without anyone getting angry about it.

 

 

Thorin :) 

  • Like 12

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, azuleslight said:

For everyone saying deed it or lose it, you are wrong, and the GM's of the game disagree with you and have said as much in CA HELP. As the OFFICIAL rule of "don't be a ###### and ruin others fun" is something that CAN and WILL get you banned. So common curtsey isn't just a nicety you bestow here and there on a whim, its a game requirement. 

So if we chat and you continue your rude behavior and get banned "cause deed it or lose it" mentality, you have only yourself to blame.

NOW BACK TO OP'S QUESTION:

I hate when people purposefully cut down the forest and don't replant. I get you need to skill up and dont begrudge you that. But for the love of VYN replant the tree's!

 

This is 100% not the case.  Today I had a chunk of my off deed things griefed because something another person did, I saved the conversation where the person admits to me that they did it just to grief my village and the GM just gave me my FSB back nothing else.  If the GMs care about that then the person who pretty much made me want to quit this game for good would at least have received a warning.  It's sad, why bother even playing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It sucks when these things happen and I think 99% of people wouldn't grief others. But in the end of the day we have the tools to prevent it being an issue by deeding it, so it is ultimately on you to protect things that are important to you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Oreo said:

deed it or lose it

 

I have a suggestion of a better rule:

Put it in here or stop using it:

Not to mention that the above "rule" is against "Play nice" rule and against any common definition of theft, therefore also in contradiction to "no stealing" rule. 

 

I was raising the issue that there will be more and more griefing and thievery therefore rules, at least concerning the perimeters has to be revised, so we can feel like we play PVE or not PVP server, I also pointed out that if current interpretation allowing stealing will be upheld this will draw players away. There is no day without a complaint. I noticed that people who harassed me when I started to play are back, and they started to modify my perimeters and my highway sideways despite the strict GM orders to stay away, as I got a strict GM order to stay away from their perimeters (and I even let a part of my perimeter go, so they will leave me alone finally, no dice!). 

 

The courtesy rules will not be followed if staff supports certain behaviours, not to mention many people do not read forums. I am telling newbies to not cut trees on the orchards or in alleys because they have a different function - make our surrounding beautiful and provide sprouts, but they can simply not listen to me. 

 

And situations like the above make me sad, because I know I will have to chop a lot of beautiful camellia hedges and put locked QL 70+ stone enclosures, and the beautiful and welcoming Platinum Estate (3 deeds - Platinum Ranch, Platinum Orchard and Platinum Fields) will look like a darn fortress. And I had no problem with people cutting some sprouts to plant on their deeds or cutting rogue trees, so these orchards had some community use. Every person who saw my deed knows I am not a fortress captain type of person.

 

As I wrote here: 

I think @Enki and @Pomonashould consider revising the perimeter and enclosure rules. It works for highways, why not make it work for e.g. pens or orchards? 

 

 

Edited by Platyna
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rules should be accessible in game for those that don't use the forum.

 

I believe it's a common courtesy to leave signs when modifying roads explaining the change being made, or offering some kind of reassurance.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Antony said:

Rules should be accessible in game for those that don't use the forum.

 

I believe it's a common courtesy to leave signs when modifying roads explaining the change being made, or offering some kind of reassurance.

 

That was already covered by a GM Daciana upon my request, but it seems it wasn't included in the highway ruleset (and I think it should, so everyone has easy access to this information):

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I recall early on, probably not in the tutorial so probably on-wiki, I was reading a bit about building your first house or choosing where to deed or something like that, and there was a strong mention of seeing who lived nearby and... wait for it... communicating with them.  "Deed it or lose it" is a thing, but so is "play nice".  

 

1. Roads, as per the OP.  Same with terraforming.  Be a good neighbour.

 

2.Cutting trees.  I disagree with the OP.  The perimeter around your deed is not YOUR perimeter.  It specifically exists to prevent contiguous deeds and to ensure resources are kept available.  To then have an etiquette requiring them to be unavailable to anyone but the nearest deed holder is antithetical to the function of the perimeter.  It would still be nice to remind players to be good neighbours, but that should not go so far as to warn them off perimeters.  A deed holder has exactly zero additional rights to the perimeter around their deed as any other player.

 

I think advising players to replant, and to maybe think twice if all the trees are centred, would be good.  If I find an oak (or willow) grove which is obviously regular and near an active deed, I leave it alone.  If I find one that is not obviously near an active deed, and/or is irregular (i.e. not centred on tile, boundary not straight) I will harvest sprouts and probably a tree or two (as many as I can replant and still keep a few good sprouts).  For other tree types, I will harvest wherever and whenever I need to, BUT if they seem to be a maintained grove then I will definitely replant, but if they seem "wild" then I will maybe replant (depending on how common the tree is in the area).

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, azuleslight said:


I hate when people purposefully cut down the forest and don't replant. I get you need to skill up and dont begrudge you that. But for the love of VYN replant the tree's!

they replant themselves in like two weeks its all trees again why bother

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Blazecraze said:

@azuleslight In the scenario of cutting down trees outside of someone's perimeter and deed, a sustainable resource, deed it or lose it would be fair and I highly doubt a GM would take action against a player for chopping them down.

I would have agree with you but a GM, literally threaten to ban someone for such a thing. CA HELP is mostly volunteers, im talking about Game Masters. They have repeatedly stated it is NOT "deed it if you want it", That the rule "dont be a D" tops anything else.  Because, stop chopping my tree's is one thing if in open space, its another if its perimeter and its repeatedly happening. 

My comment of replanting what you cut down is a curtesy, one you dont have to extend, and i can build a 100x 100 stone wall at 40ql and stop you from tearing down the resources because you wont replant what you cut down. It's petty but no one will spend 45 mins to 1.5 hrs bashing a stone wall for tree's.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, MrKettle said:

This is 100% not the case.  Today I had a chunk of my off deed things griefed because something another person did, I saved the conversation where the person admits to me that they did it just to grief my village and the GM just gave me my FSB back nothing else.  If the GMs care about that then the person who pretty much made me want to quit this game for good would at least have received a warning.  It's sad, why bother even playing?

If that is truly the case, take this up with enky(sp?) i think, is head GM, they will review it ASAP, are usually very fair about stuff as well. this will result usually in a warning for GM and player...well that might be a different story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

they replant themselves in like two weeks its all trees again why bother

again the theme is common curtsey, this is one of them, the same person how reduced almost my entire area of trees to the point that if i do not replant them it would be months before new trees appeared in a wroth while manor. its about a 50x50 annihilation of trees....so yes replant the fricken tree's. how would you feel if i came around your deed and basically emptied it out of tree's and never replanted? I'm sure we'd have words in PM. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, azuleslight said:

Because, stop chopping my tree's is one thing if in open space, its another if its perimeter and its repeatedly happening. 

 

No, those are the same thing.  A perimeter is open space.  In fact it is protected as open space. 

 

The deed is yours.  The perimeter is not.  Declaring that it is yours simply because it is next to what actually is yours is as much being a bad neighbour as cutting down the whole of an obviously maintained timber farm.

 

16 minutes ago, azuleslight said:

I would have agree with you but a GM, literally threaten to ban someone for such a thing.

 

I haven't had this issue with anyone yet, but from everything I have read in the fora, it seems to be opposite.  There are no end of complaints about perimeter trees being chopped and GMs saying "deed it or lose it".  I recall a couple of threads where GMs have specifically said that cutting off-deed trees does not constitute griefing.  All we can do is rely on the rules as written, just as the GMs do.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, TheTrickster said:

 

No, those are the same thing.  A perimeter is open space.  In fact it is protected as open space. 

 

I haven't had this issue with anyone yet, but from everything I have read in the fora, it seems to be opposite. 

1. not in enforcement, unless the GM's have started to follow rules instead of do what they want. that isn't the case, they can say w/e they want in forums....but what GM's do in game is entirely different.

2. to the point, if someone makes a 40 slope encasing your entire deed, but in the perimeter, according to your logic that isn't grieving. When we both know it is, and if a GM is being fair will ban the player making the slopes. 

Deed it or lose it is not the rule, official or otherwise, but "dont be a D-bag" is LITERALLY a rule. and that actual stated rule trumps any perceived rule the veteran players may have come to adopt.

 

Edited by azuleslight
spelling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, azuleslight said:

how would you feel if i came around your deed and basically emptied it out of tree's and never replanted? I'm sure we'd have words in PM. 

i live on a mountain and everything within about 2 map tiles of it is deforested already, i'd probably thank you in pm's for clearing the random sprouts that pop up from time to time. seriously it's hundreds of them a week you have no idea how fast forests regrow, a 50x50 grass field if it's surrounded by trees will be entirely trees within a few weeks, theres a reason every single server is 90% forests 10% steppe/sand

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.