Retrograde

Valrei International. 096

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Just now, Finnn said:

on a 2nd note.. this one worries me 'a bit':

"Barding speed reduction made more consistent."

there was a bug that allowed people to have barded horses with no reduced speed. thats fixed. dont worry about it.

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Haha one of the first patches for PvP, gets hidden in a spoiler, and then people complain they're trying to give too many incentives to PvP server. Okay. 

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FYI Chaos is not listed in the PVP changes for the Hota Camps but seems to be in effect there.

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Changes mostly are good. But as a Chaos player all i see is the (Defience only) text. Just one question why just on the new server and some in Elevation? Its not like the market will crash on the old servers if we get more loot. If there is a reason would like to hear it.

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4 hours ago, Aldurair said:

I don't see this opinion expressed too much so I will say: Please don't add too many incentives to play on pvp. Wurm pvp is not everyones cup of tea. If you make it the meta for pve players to have to play on pvp you undermine the effort of those who are here solely for pve. Instead of going to pvp, I for one would more likely just lose interest in wurm and play a lot less altogether. 

 

4 hours ago, SirMuttley said:

Well said.

 

Just because PVP needs a continuous feed of "fresh meat" doesn't mean wurm should shift to a pvp game. I think we would see an exponential drop in numbers overall if that happened.

Both of you are swinging and missing hard at the point trying to be made here. If you want to come to the PvP server you're more than welcome to, but the changes we're pushing for are meant to make staying on the PvP server have benefits. This is aimed at the portion of the Defiance playerbase that skills on PvE and then migrates over to fight, since as it is now, skilling on PvE is faster no matter what way you slice it. Having the PvP players live primarily on Defiance is the end goal, and that's a goal that can only be reached if they close the gap when it comes to skilling speed.

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3 minutes ago, Sovos said:

 

Both of you are swinging and missing hard at the point trying to be made here. If you want to come to the PvP server you're more than welcome to, but the changes we're pushing for are meant to make staying on the PvP server have benefits. This is aimed at the portion of the Defiance playerbase that skills on PvE and then migrates over to fight, since as it is now, skilling on PvE is faster no matter what way you slice it. Having the PvP players live primarily on Defiance is the end goal, and that's a goal that can only be reached if they close the gap when it comes to skilling speed.

I get you, and I understand. However, it is common among game devs (and on wurm as well) to bleed pvp changes over to pve, breaking the pve experience so that pvpers can be happy. My point is that whatever changes they do, they *should not* add pvp crap to pve in order to "balance" the experience. Any changes should only apply to pvp in other words..

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16 minutes ago, SirMuttley said:

I get you, and I understand. However, it is common among game devs (and on wurm as well) to bleed pvp changes over to pve, breaking the pve experience so that pvpers can be happy. My point is that whatever changes they do, they *should not* add pvp crap to pve in order to "balance" the experience. Any changes should only apply to pvp in other words..



All of the changes listed do only apply to PVP....? I don't think Darklords is going to turn PVP on in Harmony any time soon... unfortunately :D 

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1 hour ago, Sovos said:

 

Both of you are swinging and missing hard at the point trying to be made here. If you want to come to the PvP server you're more than welcome to, but the changes we're pushing for are meant to make staying on the PvP server have benefits. This is aimed at the portion of the Defiance playerbase that skills on PvE and then migrates over to fight, since as it is now, skilling on PvE is faster no matter what way you slice it. Having the PvP players live primarily on Defiance is the end goal, and that's a goal that can only be reached if they close the gap when it comes to skilling speed.

 

I see, not sure about all the issues with pvp but I could see something like going path of knowledge is gimping your character way too hard, in that case something like eliminating PoK on pvp and giving 25% bonus if you have 70+ meditation skill would be understandable, I could support those asking for that. Equality is good, recognition is good, but to make it feel like you should be playing on another server when you have no interest in that server is something I hope the devs will (continuously) be careful about.

 

The option to play pvp is there, that is the incentive to go to that server. XP bonus should not be part of it. Ofc pvp will be more dangerous, that is a positive for thrill seekers like my younger self, but its not something that should be inherently rewarded. Thats the beauty of Wurm's sandbox nature. Player retention in pvp is something I always see brought up by a vocal few when browsing patch notes, no one wants to shoot down their ideas, but something like making pvp thee place to grind is a bad idea. If it were to happen you become bleeding into a place where the predominant place to have to play is on a server with epic rules, probably not good. 

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6 minutes ago, Aldurair said:

 

I see, not sure about all the issues with pvp but I could see something like going path of knowledge is gimping your character way too hard, in that case something like eliminating PoK on pvp and giving 25% bonus if you have 70+ meditation skill would be understandable, I could support those asking for that.

 

PoK isn't even available on Defiance as level 9 is the maximum meditation level there. There's currently no way to get that 25% bonus on Defiance.

 

As you said, having the skillgain bonus linked to meditation skill would be a good change.

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, BrokenSanity said:

 

PoK isn't even available on Defiance as level 9 is the maximum meditation level there. There's currently no way to get that 25% bonus on Defiance.

 

As you said, having the skillgain bonus linked to meditation skill would be a good change.

 

 

 

Yea, I'm not sure what the issue is with people saying skilling on Defiance is such a huge disadvantage. Maybe talking about the lack of coc tools and economy? Well then sounds like there is potentially a market there and some vyn priests need to be grinded over there. If talking about the fact it's pvp,  I think that is kind of the point? If someone is too afraid to have a deed or structure over there, because of the risk of it being looted, so they have to play on a safe zone on the pve servers, I'm sorry, that's not an issue of a lack of xp bonus, sounds like those people are just afraid of pvp! 

For me, PvP servers have always been a place where you can grind if you want, skill tick is the same, but if someone tries to grief you, you can actually retaliate. A lot more freedom basically, not because I think it should be a better place to grind(Apparently, some do!).
 

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3 minutes ago, Aldurair said:

Yea, I'm not sure what the issue is with people saying skilling on Defiance is such a huge disadvantage

Vyn + pok + ability to sell rares etc you make (people don't really buy and sell things on pvp) cheaper sleep powder (not an issue after this patch linking pools), and for weapon skills and such a much safer environment to grind in. Even if they were perfectly equal in skillgain rate, the ability to be a vyn follower for 10% skillgain on pve + pok for 25% and a combat priest+path on pvp on pvp is enough to draw people to grind there. All the sleep bonus rewards on pvp are linked to roaming around the map and taking worse enchanted gear because you could lose it fighting compared to freedom where you can supercast 1 weapon+set of armor and it's permanent, having to remake all your stuff after dying and travel time are all negatives on skillgain/hour so even with them you'd probably still be looking at more skill/hour grinding on freedom

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41 minutes ago, Aldurair said:

Yea, I'm not sure what the issue is with people saying skilling on Defiance is such a huge disadvantage. Maybe talking about the lack of coc tools and economy? Well then sounds like there is potentially a market there and some vyn priests need to be grinded over there. If talking about the fact it's pvp,  I think that is kind of the point? If someone is too afraid to have a deed or structure over there, because of the risk of it being looted, so they have to play on a safe zone on the pve servers, I'm sorry, that's not an issue of a lack of xp bonus, sounds like those people are just afraid of pvp!

 

I'm sorry but you really don't understand the current situation on Defiance. Oblivionreaver's post does a good job of summarising the reasons people choose to grind on PvE instead - it's not because people are scared of being looted.

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1 hour ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

Vyn + pok + ability to sell rares etc you make (people don't really buy and sell things on pvp) cheaper sleep powder (not an issue after this patch linking pools), and for weapon skills and such a much safer environment to grind in. Even if they were perfectly equal in skillgain rate, the ability to be a vyn follower for 10% skillgain on pve + pok for 25% and a combat priest+path on pvp on pvp is enough to draw people to grind there. All the sleep bonus rewards on pvp are linked to roaming around the map and taking worse enchanted gear because you could lose it fighting compared to freedom where you can supercast 1 weapon+set of armor and it's permanent, having to remake all your stuff after dying and travel time are all negatives on skillgain/hour so even with them you'd probably still be looking at more skill/hour grinding on freedom

So aside from vyn which has been mitigated with other religion skillbonuses and pok bonus that is not even possible yet, these are all just individual player issues. If you're afraid to use your good coc set because you might lose it, that's on you, not the devs is it...

 

Honestly if losing your stuff is the issue, yet you still want to play on pvp, then perhaps a no drop pvp server is what you guys should be advocating for? 

 

Sounds like the existence of being tied to a pve server at all is a real dilemma, ofc everyone will want to go priest on pvp and follower on pve if all things equal. Since no one wants to gimp themselves in pvp by not having spells. But a skillbonus on pvp is not the solution. That creates a problem where will people who want to do the skillgain meta will go to pvp to grind skill but not engage in pvp for various reasons. For one they'd be inadequate without priest powers and plus many of them don't even want to pvp in the first place. 

 

Just want to make it clear I am not trying to fix pvp server problems, just saying skillbonus on pvp server is not the solution. I really think the game mode lends itself to not being so popular. If you really like the game mode, a small disadvantage like not having the best coc gear shouldn't be a problem. If they opened Jackal again but with a form of normalized skillgain, I would play it in a heartbeat despite the lack of coc tools for the majority of the season. I enjoyed the pve challenge (especially the first week, where it felt like you would be attacked everytime you stepped away from the start spot.) and exploration. Regular skillgain and some skins would have been perfect there... If the game mode is fun, no one is going to split hairs over a small difference in skillgain IMO. 

 

In the end, seems like pvp is just a battle arena you go for a little while out of the day I think... seems fine to me.

Edited by Aldurair

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2 minutes ago, Aldurair said:

So aside from vyn which has been mitigated with other religion skillbonuses and pok bonus that is not even possible yet, these are all just individual player issues. If you're afraid to use your good coc set because you might lose it, that's on you, not the devs is it...

 

Honestly if losing your stuff is the issue, yet you still want to play on pvp, then perhaps a no drop pvp server is what you guys should be advocating for? 

 

Sounds like the existence of being tied to a pve server at all is a real dilemma, ofc everyone will want to go priest on pvp and follower on pve if all things equal. Since no one wants to gimp themselves in pvp by not having spells. But a skillbonus on pvp is not the solution. That creates a problem where will people who want to do the skillgain meta will go to pvp to grind skill but not engage in pvp for various reasons. For one they'd be inadequate without priest powers and plus many of them don't even want to pvp in the first place. 

 

Just want to make it clear I am not trying to fix pvp server problems, just saying skillbonus on pvp server is not the solution. I really think the game mode lends itself to not being so popular. If you really like the game mode, a small disadvantage like not having the best coc gear shouldn't be a problem. If they opened Jackal again but with a form of normalized skillgain, I would play it in a heartbeat despite the lack of coc tools for the majority of the season. I enjoyed the pve challenge (especially the first week, where it felt like you would be attacked everytime you stepped away from the start spot.) and exploration. Regular skillgain and some skins would have been perfect there...



You are entirely missing the point.

It is more effective to grind on freedom, because you have ready access to be Vynora (instead of another god for pvp reasons), have access to CoC tools (Which BL doesn't have access to), and the items yo ucreate can be sold to get sleep bonus rather than just left lying around for no sleep bonus (as there is no market on defiance, almost everyone gives away items for free to help their kingdom out).

BECAUSE it is more effective, players tend to sit down on PvE grinding away instead of spending time on pvp, which in turn means less and less people will be on defiance to roam around. This means that spontaneous pvp is less common, and will mostly result from people harrassing other deeds (which in turn allows everyone on pve to jump over to pvp just to defend the deed, rather than roam and create healthier spontaneous pvp).

The more people that do this, the more it feeds into a feedback loop where less and less people play on defiance, the population drops- and the server eventually dies, because most people spend most of their time on freedom. Because it's essential, for the growth of your character.

Losing gear is not an issue. It has NEVER been the issue; no matter how many times you say it, nobody cares about losing gear because rarely anyone actually loses their skilling tools to begin with (theres a small chance, but only if you're being risky/dumb)

 

Quote

That creates a problem where will people who want to do the skillgain meta will go to pvp to grind skill but not engage in pvp for various reasons



I 100% agree with this, that adding a flat skill bonus won't actually encourage much more pvp; it will though ,encourage people to play and try out defiance, which in turn can lead to more pvp; but i much more encourage changes that only reward skill bonuses by encouraging activities that may result in roaming: Depos, battlecamps, sb from hunting and all that - those are the changes i want to see. It still means people will run back to freedom for skilling after they roam, but at least they'll roam.

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10 hours ago, Subie said:

Chaos just gets kicked aside again.

 

You guys have had your fun for 13 years. Jesus. Let them focus on the new server that people actually play on and that can actually try new stuff on without everyone losing their ###### minds.

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3 hours ago, RainRain said:



You are entirely missing the point.

It is more effective to grind on freedom, because you have ready access to be Vynora (instead of another god for pvp reasons), have access to CoC tools (Which BL doesn't have access to), and the items yo ucreate can be sold to get sleep bonus rather than just left lying around for no sleep bonus (as there is no market on defiance, almost everyone gives away items for free to help their kingdom out).

BECAUSE it is more effective, players tend to sit down on PvE grinding away instead of spending time on pvp, which in turn means less and less people will be on defiance to roam around. This means that spontaneous pvp is less common, and will mostly result from people harrassing other deeds (which in turn allows everyone on pve to jump over to pvp just to defend the deed, rather than roam and create healthier spontaneous pvp).

The more people that do this, the more it feeds into a feedback loop where less and less people play on defiance, the population drops- and the server eventually dies, because most people spend most of their time on freedom. Because it's essential, for the growth of your character.

Losing gear is not an issue. It has NEVER been the issue; no matter how many times you say it, nobody cares about losing gear because rarely anyone actually loses their skilling tools to begin with (theres a small chance, but only if you're being risky/dumb)

 



I 100% agree with this, that adding a flat skill bonus won't actually encourage much more pvp; it will though ,encourage people to play and try out defiance, which in turn can lead to more pvp; but i much more encourage changes that only reward skill bonuses by encouraging activities that may result in roaming: Depos, battlecamps, sb from hunting and all that - those are the changes i want to see. It still means people will run back to freedom for skilling after they roam, but at least they'll roam.

 

Fair enough, don't mind a way to get vynora follower bonuses even if you follow a different god, likewise pok bonuses even if you are a different path, adding some one time coc scrolls to chests or something like that is not op either. There's nothing wrong with equal footing, economy is just that, maybe you need your own pvp currency , although seems like there are quite a few ways to get sleep bonus vs pve, I remember the valrei missions were surprisingly easy to get extra SB. Seems like they are coming up with many different ways all the time...
Edit: Could just add something like tying your skill bonuses to your pve god and path choice.


As someone who has no intention of playing pvp though, I will let you know, putting more incentives into pvp doesn't make me feel like playing pvp, it makes me feel that playing on pve is not worth my time, and therefore I stop playing and subscribing to Wurm altogether. 

Edited by Aldurair

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8 hours ago, Aldurair said:

these are all just individual player issues

 

4 hours ago, Aldurair said:

, it makes me feel that playing on pve is not worth my time, and therefore I stop playing and subscribing to Wurm altogether. 

quitting the game because people on a server you dont play on get a small bonus to offset extra time spent needed to live on the server sounds like an individual player issue to me 🤷‍♂️

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On 10/23/2020 at 5:07 AM, Retrograde said:

That’s not all though, Halloween is just around the corner, and it wouldn’t be Wurm without something spooky up our sleeves, you’ll have to wait to find out though!

 

 

Is there a date for this?

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13 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

 

quitting the game because people on a server you dont play on get a small bonus to offset extra time spent needed to live on the server sounds like an individual player issue to me 🤷‍♂️

Right back at ya buddy, you would be the one asking for a change here though. I Did not like the way they handled the Jackle server, they pretty much shutdown what might be considered some endgame pve content and another server by making it not viable. Less than 20% skillgain?? And everything you make goes poof in the end. How's that for balance, just make it equal, that way you can play what you enjoy... and why is it every game tries to make it so we have to pvp like it is some sort of chore that is necessary for our personal growth or something, lmao. There's no reason to try to siphon players from one mode to another. It's not like pve is gaining in players either.

 

A straight skill buff to pvp is unbalanced. That is creating people who will be severely underpowered who will go to pvp to be vyn pok to just grind while trying to avoid pvp as best they can on a pvp server. Pvp IS the incentive for playing on pvp, if you need all these sleep bonus perks and skillbuffs to play on it, that game mode is borked. 

 

 

If the issue is vyn pok not being viable yet needing it to grind, address that issue, I even offered ideas. A straight skillbuff, and I imagine you will be coming to the forums to complain about how you have to be vyn pok to grind the most efficiently on a pvp server,  then your pvp experience becomes completely borked? At least now you can grind on pve when you want and go to pvp when you want.

 

Appendix edit: Some of you like to think that everyone would like pvp, they just need more incentive to try it or make it worth playing, but if you make it so pvp is the only place worth playing you end up with a ruleset like epic, is that really something you want...

Edited by Aldurair

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On 10/23/2020 at 5:07 AM, Retrograde said:

Aggressive non domestic/zombie creatures you kill will have a chance to give out an item when killing them. (Defiance Only)

  • Will more commonly be sleep powder, but can sometimes be a random high quality weapon also.

  • The chance for this will be dependent on the CR of the creature and will be an uncommon drop.

  • This will not happen inside the safe zones or on settlements.

Was this feature reverted at/after the hotfix?

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First to capture a camp after spawning receives a few pieces of moon metal. Captures after will not give any more.

 

THIS IS A LIE. CAPTURING A CAMP ONLY GAVE ME 1 LUMP AND IM SUPER TRIGGERED. GIVE ME 2 MORE LUMPS

[10:42:48] A lump of moon metal has appeared in your inventory.

unknown.png

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7 hours ago, JamesSnow said:

First to capture a camp after spawning receives a few pieces of moon metal. Captures after will not give any more.

 

THIS IS A LIE. CAPTURING A CAMP ONLY GAVE ME 1 LUMP AND IM SUPER TRIGGERED. GIVE ME 2 MORE LUMPS

[10:42:48] A lump of moon metal has appeared in your inventory.

unknown.png

They also seemingly lowered the min ql from the camps as before I looted many camps and never got sub 50ql but I got like 23ql or somethibg when I did one last night aha. Not complaining just saying it wasn't in the notes or might not be intended

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The changes are not working, even more pvpers are living on pve to skill, leading to a cycle of lower activity ""66 other players are online. You are on Defiance (569 totally in Wurm)"".  

😕 😕 😕 

Edited by Omar

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13 minutes ago, Omar said:

The changes are not working, even more pvpers are living on pve to skill, leading to a cycle of lower activity ""66 other players are online. You are on Defiance (569 totally in Wurm)"".  

😕 😕 😕 

 

The server just restarted, there was connection errors, and its early US time where people are working. FAKE NEWS

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