Ulviirala

What new players seem to think about "the old servers"

What new players seem to think about the old cluster  

116 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you think new players think or assume, that it's pointless to play on the old cluster?

    • Yes
      93
    • No
      23
  2. 2. Do you think there should be a stronger emphasis over what cluster to play on at character creation?

    • Yes
      77
    • No
      39
  3. 3. Would you like to see new players on the old cluster?

    • Yes
      76
    • No
      40


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7 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

However, the populations are DISTINCTLY different (as my data shows), with the old cluster coming in far lower.  This suggests that either your theory is false or there is some other huge factor impacting player choice of cluster that no-one has managed to identify in existing literature in the field.

 

I would say there is a huge factor effecting player choice of cluster, and it isn't unidentified.  A lot of MMOGs spin off new servers specifically to keep funneling new players to new servers.  I am pretty sure people know this, and in most games there is good reason to always go the newest server/cluster.  The Steam launch and the new cluster launch were simultaneous.  This is all simply illustrating the point of OP in the first place.  The question is raised regarding what conceptions or preconceptions there are of the clusters and whether something can or should be done about it.

 

Another factor is long-time players perpetuating their own subjective (and IMO incorrect) notions that you can only really sandbox with others of similar level/playtime.  New players look to more experienced players for advice and credit them with a certain amount of authority.  When, despite the actual factual existence of ongoing activity on the older cluster, long-time players keep on saying "the old clusters are dead and have nothing to offer" they are deterring new players from trying them, and then conveniently using the product of their "advice" to claim that their advice is correct.

 

The fact is, pretty much every server has something to offer to players, so surely it is in the best interests of the game and all its players to arm newcomers with accurate and insightful information to help them find their way to the Wurm experience that will most entertain and retain them.

Edited by TheTrickster
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6 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

Wait up, you are saying that those who start on ANY server are a subset of those who start only on the NEW server?  I tried to Venn this but tore the paper.   I think you may be getting your mixages messed.

 

I should offer a little clarity here:

 

"Group 1" is really just a player with their character identity fulfilled; "Group 2" is the opposite.  To extend the notion; a "ruin hunter" type player would have old and new clusters reversed for the groups.

 

 

I like your argument for preconceptions however; this could indeed skew the populations.  I don't think the impact would be enough to  explain an 8x difference in populations if "always satisfied" players were common, but I must admit I'm not entirely certain.

 

While I agree both clusters have something to offer, the massive disparity in populations (both initial and eventual) is screaming "but players are flocking to the new over the old for some reason, and the only difference now is population and skill levels".

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On 10/19/2020 at 11:37 AM, Amata said:

Exodus - I know at least one person who sailed away to live on Exodus, and reports indicate that this person is still alive and is happy with the decision to live on this island. I've heard that there are a lot of wild animals that roam Exodus just waiting for people to come and hunt / domesticate them. Who knows if this madness is true? Well, that one person that my neighbor says they know who sailed away to live on Exodus.... 
 

 

Definitely! I absolutely love Exodus,  and easily had a space for myself. Sailing away to move to a place where I had to provide myself was the beginning for many goals, and meeting many awesome people too. Exodus is FULL of wild animals, we have tons of spawns, despite people wiping out the entire population every so often, they'll be back within a couple days. No bison to be seen like the rest of the islands, but everything else is in abundance. Exodus is teeming with life for sure - both in terms of wildlife, as well as players who log on regularly. We're a relatively quiet community, but we do hang out substantially, and we've had some newcomers lately too. I've enjoyed my 4 months as a wurmian immensely, and will continue to enjoy the time to come. Sailing from server to server, doing jobs and meeting people, picking up a newbie or a returnee along the way, making friends, exploring, touring deeds and marveling at the magnificent work people have done, attending events, planning events, skilling, making a home, occasionally selling and buying things when I feel like it, there is no greater freedom when as a player, you just take it as it comes, and let the game surprise you rather than expect things. I think I've deviated a bit, but hey,  Exodus is wonderful. I know some good spots if anyone wants to settle here, and I'm sure our alliance is ever welcoming of people to join us. People here on Exodus who have been here long time take the time to heal the land consistently, removing roads, replanting areas,  terraforming. I really respect that, as it has really enriched my experience. No offense intended, I didnt quite enjoy the dense development of southwest and west Indy when I spent time there. I know people who would love it there, should they choose to play Wurm. I've found my home, and I'm sure every server has something special to offer in each niche. In the end, old or new server, I think the Southern cluster is a lot more mature in development and it's a lot more peaceful without land wars and arguments. Land war here or dont like your neighbor? Very easy, just pick up, and move. There are so many places to go, many seemingly untouched, or at least, healed to a great degree. There's a little something for everyone, and that was the basis of my choice. Also, credits to Badvoc for introducing me to Exodus in the first place.

 

PS, if you do come to Exodus, be sure to hmu! I'd love to meet you in person and introduce you to the others or show you around whichever places I've traversed.

 

PSS, I'm also a newish player, so please forgive me if I make mistakes or get lost from time to time ❤️  I'm also thankful to everyone who's taught me things and helped me on my way to where I am now.

 

PSSS, if you're new and looking for a place to stay or set up shop, I have some space, the only conditions being 1) Be nice 2) I generally want to do the building / terraforming myself, so there's unlikely going to be village projects. I do strongly encourage anyone who loves terraforming and visualizing ideas to have their own deed or join someone who's looking for builders, as I house mainly people who dont really want to do these and skill in peace instead.  Also note my deed is still lacking a lot of infrastructure, but if you're okay with that, you're welcome to stay and hang out! I've got 2 residents and 1 who visits frequently, so you're unlikely to be alone for long, if at all, if that's a concern. 

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To those thinking or saying the old servers economy is kaput: I don't have or know the intricate details but the economy on the old servers are definitely not dead or dying, if you're willing to be patient to make a sale you'll get stuff sold, support beams are always selling fast, playing as a miner you can make good coins, stuff like zinc really sells well. This weekend I posted zinc for sale and I got 3 customers in 5 minutes so yeah there's plenty of life still. Obviously if you wanna sell stuff that gets their value from their QL like weapons or armour it'll take some time to get those skills but it can be done.

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3 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

"but players are flocking to the new over the old for some reason, and the only difference now is population and skill levels".

... and a chorus of die-hard naysayers warning them off the old.

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3 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

... and a chorus of die-hard naysayers warning them off the old.

 

 

Truth is there is pros and cons to any server and imo theres no right or wrong answer, if I was asked outright by a new player i would advise them to go north, there's something about being apart of a new server, helping shape it, but again theres something enjoyable about wandering through a forest and stumbling on a old forgotten deed or spending the time returning old built up areas back to nature something i enjoyed doing on exo ( as well as hunting ).

 

The state of the cave systems in the old world can be a problem also, it can be very hard for a new player to deal with the problems of old caves that have been mined and mined again, can take a lot of fixing.

 

But there is reasons to go north or south just depends on the players goals.

 

 

 

But let me ask you this would you advise a new pvper to go to epic?

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9 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

When, despite the actual factual existence of ongoing activity on the older cluster, long-time players keep on saying "the old clusters are dead and have nothing to offer" they are deterring new players from trying them, and then conveniently using the product of their "advice" to claim that their advice is correct.

 

The fact is, pretty much every server has something to offer to players, so surely it is in the best interests of the game and all its players to arm newcomers with accurate and insightful information to help them find their way to the Wurm experience that will most entertain and retain them.


Trickster is again doing that thing where I fangirl the words put into sentences and wish I had thought of them myself. 
 

 

As an aside: I find it continually puzzling when long-time players say things like - "this game sucks," "the old servers are dead," and "Wurm is dying." 
... like... if it sucks / is dead / is dying, why have you been playing it for X number of years? Why are you still playing it? 

 

I am genuinely mystified at players constantly negging a game that they have been playing (and oftentimes paying) continuously over a span of years. 
 

(I do mean negging - I'm not talking about constructive criticism, feature/bug feedback, and other appropriate ways players provide input for ongoing game development)

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7 hours ago, Eirwengale said:

People here on Exodus who have been here long time take the time to heal the land consistently, removing roads, replanting areas,  terraforming.

 

Thank you for sharing your Exodus insights! I find the summaries provided by local inhabitants is usually stuffed full of the kind of information a player actually needs to know when making their initial server decision. I especially loved the bit of info that you shared that I quoted above. That is just a super specific, but also very telling indicator of the "vibe" an island might have. 

 

On Indy, for example, I would say that the overall approach is to retain as much of the roads, terraforming, and other deed edifices as quasi-monuments demonstrating the tenacity and imagination of Wurmians past and present. Very interesting that on one island what is considered "crowning achievements" might on another island be considered remains that need to be "healed."

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9 hours ago, Badvoc said:

 

 

Truth is there is pros and cons to any server and imo theres no right or wrong answer, if I was asked outright by a new player i would advise them to go north, there's something about being apart of a new server, helping shape it, but again theres something enjoyable about wandering through a forest and stumbling on a old forgotten deed or spending the time returning old built up areas back to nature something i enjoyed doing on exo ( as well as hunting ).

 

The state of the cave systems in the old world can be a problem also, it can be very hard for a new player to deal with the problems of old caves that have been mined and mined again, can take a lot of fixing.

 

But there is reasons to go north or south just depends on the players goals.

 

.

 

But let me ask you this would you advise a new pvper to go to epic?

 

Yes, there are pros and cons to any server, which is why it is unbalanced to to keep implying that to a "new" player the pros are in the north and the cons are in the south,

 

"If asked outright I would advise x" is where we let our own paradigm impose on the other person's.  Give them a picture and let them decide.

 

Epic?  I haven't been so am not qualified to say much about it.  But then I am not advising players to go to any server in particular.  I just don't understand why so many seem committed to FUD about the older servers.

 

EDIT:  Actually, I am finding this bait/switch going on quite frustrating.  It starts with high polarity, "Old is dead.  Only new is good" (in fact there is a post above which I think says almost exactly that and only that).  Then in the face of push back to back it up it changes to "Well, yes admittedly the old has some merit, and admittedly the new has some problems.  Both have pros and cons."  Once agreement to "Both have pros and cons" is granted we seem to be back to "Old is dead. Only new is good."   "Both old and new servers have something to offer incoming players" is not identical "Only the new servers have something to offer incoming players".  In fact, some of the very benefits used to entice people to start on the new servers are in fact not on the new servers but on the old servers (e.g. lots of space to find your own niche and settle).  Are most people who go to a cluster that does not suit them (for whatever reason) more likely to start over on the other cluster or just give up and abandon Wurm?  This is why it is important to give them ALL the relevant info, a well-rounded picture, of the various options to help them select the best start for them.

 

 

 

Edited by TheTrickster
More to say on this point.

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Pristine is full of open spaces for new deeds.

I would love to have some neighbors, with a little buffer area between us ofc, but within a short walk.

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This is long and a bit fisky, but I want to clearly step through the argument because I think something went sideways somewhere.

 

17 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

 

I should offer a little clarity here:

 

"Group 1" is really just a player with their character identity fulfilled; "Group 2" is the opposite.  To extend the notion; a "ruin hunter" type player would have old and new clusters reversed for the groups.

 

 

I like your argument for preconceptions however; this could indeed skew the populations.  I don't think the impact would be enough to  explain an 8x difference in populations if "always satisfied" players were common, but I must admit I'm not entirely certain.

 

While I agree both clusters have something to offer, the massive disparity in populations (both initial and eventual) is screaming "but players are flocking to the new over the old for some reason, and the only difference now is population and skill levels".

 

Actually, no, that isn't adding clarity at all.  Here is how it has rolled out that I can see.  Please forgive the formatting, I am not good at multiple quotes of less-than-entire posts so I will just format as quotes the stuff I am copy/pasting from elsewhere in the thread.

 

In discussing a new player with bent toward a role, Ehterdrifter said such a player has 2 options

Quote

 

1.  Join the new cluster and be almost immediately useful as a blacksmith to a lot of people, able to contribute and embrace his identity as a blacksmith.  Once they set up their workshop, they're in business (i.e. can be useful to others and feel important)

 

2.  Join the old cluster and be utterly useless, unable to really contribute and embrace his identity as a blacksmith; at best he joins a nice alliance and then realises that they already have a blacksmith who is years ahead of him (it's a horrible feeling to feel like you're a burden to someone, and if you can't contribute this is often how you end up feeling)

 

to which Amata added a third option

Quote

3. Join whatever server is desired, establish a deed of one's own, and level up smithing skills at one's own pace. Interact with neighbors in a social stage, rather than economic playing field. Be self-sufficient in most areas & have little need for any global economy whatsoever. Be a smith by virtue of spending your days smithing for self-reliance and personal projects. Be useful to the community in that (a) you are a living person, (b) you participate in chat, (c) you are willing to interact with your neighbors on whatever level is comfortable for you, and (d) once again for those in the back, you are a person with a pulse.

Etherdrifter said people choosing this would be quite uncommon, to which a couple of people responded with a challenge for basis.  Etherdrifter seems so have taken a challenge to demonstrate the evidence for "quite uncommon" as an insistence on "not a minority" (which apart from mistaking the challenge as an assertion, includes a bit of goal-post movement), and responded with.

Quote

Of course, as a logician with a towering intellect you'll quickly have noticed that "group 3" is just a very special case of "group 1" where the player's character identity is always satisfied no matter where it is located.  Given that it is a SUBSET of group 1, one easily infers that it is a minority.

which is where the logic trolley left its tracks for me.    Group one is clearly "new cluster only" while group 3 is clearly "any server".  I initially cut out the snark in the opening of that comment, but decided to leave it in, because it is not only claiming "any server" as a subset of "new cluster" but is quite clearly implying that it is is obviously so.  I thought Etherdrifter may have skipped categories and was talking of something other than the 3 option above, which I tried to point out in my own quirky and obscure way.

The "clarification" of this is

Quote

"Group 1" is really just a player with their character identity fulfilled; "Group 2" is the opposite.

Now, the tortuous logic seems to be that fulfilled character identity equals new cluster and the opposite of both of those means unfulfilled character identity equals old cluster.  There is at this point no actual argument taking place; the circle has become small enough to become simply axiomatic.  Therefore because 3, although specifying "any server" describes a fulfilled character identity, axiomatically it can only apply to "new cluster" servers and is therefore a subset of option 1, despite that fact that it is specifically arguing that there is a whole other set that does not fit into option 1 or option 2.  Now I don't agree with this by any stretch of the imagination.  I am just trying to work out the logic of it.  Amata seems to be arguing that character fulfilment can be independent of server choice, while Etherdrifter seems to be assuming that it cannot in order to argue that it cannot.

 

Quote

...players are flocking to the new over the old for some reason, and the only difference now is population and skill levels

 

I think I already addressed this.  We can all see quite clearly that population and skill levels are NOT the only differences.  There are many, both on the servers and in the comments made about them. 

 

Finally:

Quote

We appear to have two distinct factions here:
 
 
Team Optimism : "Everything is great on the old servers, keep the status quo please!"
 
and
 
Team Pessimism : "The old servers are dying, please do something to save them!"
 
 
Neither side can see the logic in the other side's arguments; so it's not really much of a debate

I think this is fundamentally mistaken.  Forget the "optimism" and "pessimism" bits, I don't see anyone here putting forward either of those positions.  What I see is;

 

Camp W: "The old servers are dead, the new servers are the future and the only good choice for new players, so new players should be directed there."

 

versus 

 

Camp M: "The old servers have much to offer as well as the new servers, and new players should be given a clear overview of all their options so that they can decide for themselves."

 

I am firmly in Camp M.  That's it really.  I am not saying A is going to die or X is no good, or Q is terrific.  Just that each server has its unique offerings and I would like to see them arrayed somewhere for new player information.

 

I don't think I want to argue about it any more.  If people can't see the benefit in objective information and informed choice, I can't see how to convince them.

 

*W and M signify nothing other than the abstraction of being a vertical flip of each other.

 

Edited by TheTrickster
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1 hour ago, TheTrickster said:

I think this is fundamentally mistaken.  Forget the "optimism" and "pessimism" bits, I don't see anyone here putting forward either of those positions.  What I see is;

 

Camp W: "The old servers are dead, the new servers are the future and the only good choice for new players, so new players should be directed there."

 

versus 

 

Camp M: "The old servers have much to offer as well as the new servers, and new players should be given a clear overview of all their options so that they can decide for themselves."

 

~
I don't think I want to argue about it any more.  If people can't see the benefit in objective information and informed choice, I can't see how to convince them.

Hence the game of whack-a-mole 🙂

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On 10/15/2020 at 6:49 AM, CistaCista said:

you can have a career there as a new player.

 

To what end?  There's no reason to hoarde gold now.... you can't sell it thanks to the removal of RMT.

 

Take shipbuilding for example.  You should spend time building boats because you like doing it, not because you think you're going to make 40s selling a knarr or whatever on the new cluster.  Compare that to the what.... 6s you get on the old cluster?

 

But guess what.... the 6s on the old cluster buys you about the same thing on the new cluster for 40s.  Wait til people start selling drake sets and rift mats, you will see.

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13 hours ago, Amata said:

As an aside: I find it continually puzzling when long-time players say things like - "this game sucks," "the old servers are dead," and "Wurm is dying." 
... like... if it sucks / is dead / is dying, why have you been playing it for X number of years? Why are you still playing it? 


desire for the game to get better, addiction, sunk cost feelings, not wanting to leave friends who are helplessly addicted

those are prob the reasons i see most commonly

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4 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

We can all see quite clearly that population and skill levels are NOT the only differences.  There are many, both on the servers and in the comments made about them. 

 

Here is the crux on where we disagree.

 

You've failed utterly at convincing me of this; not on the level of superficial distinction; but on the level of a distinction that is going to drive new player choice.

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9 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

 

Here is the crux on where we disagree.

 

You've failed utterly at convincing me of this; not on the level of superficial distinction; but on the level of a distinction that is going to drive new player choice.

This is again circular reasoning, with a goodly bit of "no true Scotsman" tossed in.  I don't think you can be convinced because you have an axiomatic position of cause and any other factor is "superficial distinction". 

 

There are significant dot pointed lists of distinctions, some in this very thread. 

 

Can you not see that the advice of warning off by long-time players drives new player choice?  That is not population or skill level, but counsel.  It is prophecy that is pretty damn well determined to achieve self-fulfillment.

As I have said, the common wisdom on other MMOGs is always go to the newest server, but Wurm is not like other MMOGs and while that "common wisdom" (based on mostly on like-for-like skill levels) is itself a reason why new players choose it is not necessarily a good or valid one.

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1 hour ago, TheTrickster said:

As I have said, the common wisdom on other MMOGs is always go to the newest server, but Wurm is not like other MMOGs

 

Actually, Wurm is the *only* MMO where it is much more enjoyable to go to the new servers. In themepark games, all servers have exactly the same content.

 

All these long winded posts from you and still you have not been able to make any sense, and still not been able to adress the central point: the new servers are where players get most fulfillment out of doing their crafts, providing products and providing infrastructure.

 

It's a once-in-a-lifetime game experience, it will never happen again on this scale. I am so happy that I chose to be a part of it.

 

Now, if a player prefers that all infrastructure is already in place, and all high QL tools etc. are readily available to buy with not too much silver, so they can concentrate on developing their deed with as few logistic challenges as possible - if that is the priority, then that player should definitely choose one of the old servers. But I assure you only a minority of players think that way when they decide that Wurm is the game they want to play.

Edited by CistaCista

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1 hour ago, CistaCista said:

..

It's a once-in-a-lifetime game experience, it will never happen again on this scale. I am so happy that I chose to be a part of it.

..

 

Good for you, and I wholeheartedly wish you to enjoy.

 

But: If you are so happy, why this badmouthing of an experience you have not made and you are unable to judge about?

Are you really that new as you pretend, or just another old Wurmian fearing for his horse business on NRI when too many choose the "old servers"  😝?

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kinda weird how the only people defending the old servers are people who have played on them for months/years

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Kinda weird how the SFI badmouthers are intruding again and again like missionaries preaching to the stubborn heathens, and not a single new player among them. Already hundreds of players on NFI have been playing for months there, for years still to come.

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On 10/21/2020 at 6:35 PM, RainRain said:

kinda weird how the only people defending the old servers are people who have played on them for months/years

 

What, you mean the people that defend them are people that know about them?  That's a weird notion of weird.

 

I am on BOTH old and new, although less on the new lately because it just doesn't draw me as much.

 

On 10/21/2020 at 5:13 PM, CistaCista said:

still not been able to adress the central point: the new servers are where players get most fulfillment out of doing their crafts, providing products and providing infrastructure.

 

Well, I and others have addressed that when it has been the point, but from the naysayers it is one of several interchangeable points.  Players get most fulfillment in a number of situations, and it is yet to be actually demonstrated rather than assumed that such situations can only be provided by launching new servers all the time.  If most players want to go to new servers, then fine, nobody is saying that is bad.  BUT...  It is a fact that players are dropping away, in higher numbers than we would like.  What if even some of those would have stayed on had they made a different choice for their start?  How would they make a different choice without the information about their options?

 

This is what I don't get.  We are not claiming the new servers are bad.  We are not claiming the old servers are better.  We are simply saying the servers are here and wouldn't it be good if existing players stopped misinfo and FUD about the old servers.  That's what I don't get.  If it is so manifestly evident that the new servers are the way to go, why keep arguing against sharing objective facts about the old servers?  Whether your position is right or wrong, whether the new servers are orders of magnitude better for new players than the old ones, it cannot possibly be harmful to let new players see their options.  

Edited by TheTrickster
typo
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Oh wow, it's been a long time.

Due to my health issues I had to miss Steam launch. Now I'm pretty much ok, so I logged back to the game. I've also checked steam version.

I was very, very impressed with all these new servers, new wild lands that I'd love to explore like I used to do in past times during my many years of playing. New lands looks amazing, they're full of people, old ones, new peeps as well. This is something I was hoping for a long time. To see Wurm rising again. 

As someone who have seen raises and falls of Wurm, who was a part of them it seems kinda unfair. I mean, I've been here since first Golden Valley. I've seen land rushes of all the servers, I was here when Xanadu had over 1k players online as well as in last years when I was noticing 100-200 people. I hoped to see Wurm raising again, to be able to once again meet new people, see freedom chat full of new faces.
Everything that I hoped for is finally here, just not for old players. I mean, it's great it is here, it truly is.

It's probably only me, who feels a bit off. Standing before a choice, that isn't really any choice. Start everything over again from scratch, leave your 10 years old toon and enjoy new friends, lands and fun or stay with your toon on old cluster, which for some reasons is now empty, forgotten. With 20 people online on 32x32km server. I feel guilty now for putting so many years in my toon developing. Because of it, and 10 years of experiences and achievements i tried hard to get I can't really enjoy new lands. Unless I drop everything I ever cared about my toon in this game. 

Anyway I had my lil land rush on steam version. I really enjoy how new servers look like. It brings so much good vibes and memories, to see people in local pretty much everywhere I go. To see that new cluster has already pretty nice economy, so many people active all around. All these ugly roads and twentydigginsslopelimit walls are bringing up everything what's best in Wurm. I hope you'll all enjoy new servers regardless if you're new or old to Wurm. And I hope that Steam version will last for another 20 or even 100 years with new people onboard. 

The thing that I can 1000% agree with is:

6 hours ago, CistaCista said:

It's a once-in-a-lifetime game experience, it will never happen again on this scale. I am so happy that I chose to be a part of it.

 

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7 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

This is again circular reasoning, with a goodly bit of "no true Scotsman" tossed in.  I don't think you can be convinced because you have an axiomatic position of cause and any other factor is "superficial distinction". 

Please stop misusing the word axiomatic...  Please?

 

Look, as I think this is a case of agree to disagree.  I can see your points, I just don't see how you logically arrived at them.  You appear to be in the same position.

 

Let's just carry on with our lives as I think the thread has moved far enough off point!

 

 

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I swear it's like most of y'all chose to ignore certain things.


 

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1 hour ago, Etherdrifter said:

Please stop misusing the word axiomatic...  Please?

Please stop imposing your worldview onto others. Care to read Wittgenstein's PI? Grow up.

Some of the terminologies you use may be ok in your particular field of knowledge. Much of your attempts to back up your points are a spit in the face of empirical sciences.

 

Btw. I would not have used the term axiomatic indeed as prejudiced is more appropriate.

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