Ulviirala

What new players seem to think about "the old servers"

What new players seem to think about the old cluster  

117 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you think new players think or assume, that it's pointless to play on the old cluster?

    • Yes
      94
    • No
      23
  2. 2. Do you think there should be a stronger emphasis over what cluster to play on at character creation?

    • Yes
      78
    • No
      39
  3. 3. Would you like to see new players on the old cluster?

    • Yes
      77
    • No
      40


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Yesterday I was a viewer in a stream on Twitch, and older gentleman who never played the game before and were a bit lost. I was actually part of a group that came over from another streamer, a new player who's been around for a bit now though.

 

He started playing with a friend, and randomly picked the Xanadu server it seemed. They meant to play together but accidentally picked different starter towns. Although some of us tried to help them find each other via the highway system, which he easily started to use and followed (from Whitefay to Linton, about 6000 tiles to go), other "new" players suggested to re-roll and join Cadence instead.

 

Why?

 

Someone reasoned, all the lands on the old servers are taken, and you won't find a place there to settle. And more than one wanted them to re-roll on Cadence.

 

That does seem to be the mindset of many newer players. Someone else started arguing, that people need to stop pulling new players away from the old servers, that this reasoning is a misconception. Which I tend to strongly agree to, but alas... that streamer's chat was not a place to argue so I kept quiet about it there and then.

 

What happened next saddens me a bit. They re-rolled new characters and joined Cadence, running around a lively area unable to do something they were hoping to experience, because all the lands were taken, and they didn't find a place to settle. I didn't stick around for much longer though, it had been getting late. They're sticking around for now and seem very interested, but they're settled right now in a very unfortunate spot for a newbie character. Speculation but, perhaps due to the lack of finding undeeded land last night.

 

Obviously, the new servers are more populated and therefore lively, that's definitely a big pro for a multiplayer game. But convincing new players that it's pointless to play on the old servers, that just hurts to hear.

 

Looking at the stats of the servers, here are some of the current settlement numbers...

 

Xanadu (8k): 993

Independence (4k): 612

Deliverance (2k): 266

Pristine (2k): 199

Release (2k): 192
Celebration (2k): 186

Exodus (2k): 165

 

Cadence (4k): 788
Harmony (4k): 988

Melody (2k): 504

 

The numbers speak for themselves, I think. There's much room to settle. Maybe there should be a stronger emphasis over the pros and cons and what cluster to choose? I'm curious what you think.

Edited by Ulviirala
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Here's another urban myth: All ore veins are mined out already on the old servers.

 

🙃

Edited by Borgir
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We see the same thing here, although it is old players on the new servers, constantly trying to convince those who are active on the old servers that the old servers are already dead.

 

I have two main characters, one on Release and one on Cadence.  There is definitely more to do and see on Release.  My own experience, with a few of notable exceptions, has been to find a bunch of,  well, cynical players on Cadence.  The curmudgoenly factor is very high.  I actually had a friend helping me to find some of my corpses on Cadence, and they were asking me questions in local.  Their local overlapped with a settler who had so far completely ignored my pleas for help in Freedom chat.  This settler told my helper off soundly (I saw a copy/paste of some it) declaring them rude for not greeting them before using local in their presence.  I wonder if it is the overcrowding.  I do find many more deeds with perms shut right down on Cadence than I have on Indy or Rel.  

 

There is heavy irony in spawning to the new servers in the hope of finding living space.

 

 

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Well last time i logged on exo there was 6 people on the server and 2 were alts.

 

Tons of cattle running around, many mobs to kill but its like a single player game, on melody its getting quiet again, like wurm tends to do a few months after a new server,  as i type this 38 players online but northern servers just feel alive, busy exciting where as the southern servers don't anymore, the southern servers just feel like ghost towns.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, TheTrickster said:

There is heavy irony in spawning to the new servers in the hope of finding living space.

 

To be honest it was to be expected the moment it became clear how many new players joined at the Steam launch. At that point you can keep adding new servers to spread out the new players more, but you just run the risk of having a lot of low population servers down the line (see the old cluster) and new players won't have access to boats and such anywhere near as easily as old, so they likely won't move servers all that quickly early on either.

 

A possible answer is to connect both clusters together and to temporarily add some portal options between starter towns of the different servers so new players without boats can be more mobile, as there is indeed heavy irony in the new cluster now offering a worse start and experience for new players, at least living space wise, than the older cluster. I can't imagine this situation being great for new player retention if nothing is done about it. The devs also mentioned wanting to do more advertising, I wonder how well that will go without doing something about this.

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55 minutes ago, Badvoc said:

Well last time i logged on exo there was 6 people on the server and 2 were alts.

Tons of cattle running around, many mobs to kill but its like a single player game, on melody its getting quiet again, like wurm tends to do a few months after a new server,  as i type this 38 players online but northern servers just feel alive, busy exciting where as the southern servers don't anymore, the southern servers just feel like ghost towns.

Another one delivering myths and FUD. When looking at niarja, I find 22 to 30 players several times of the day on Exo, the higher numbers on weekends of course. Xanadu has peak figures around 100 to 120 which means that Exo has a higher density. And yes, peak simultaneous logins on all Freedom servers together seldom exceed 260.

 

It is therefore easy to feel lonesome on the old servers if one does not take precautions. For newcomers it is a good idea to look for a settlement recruiting, there are some on most servers. After that one may look for an active alliance, there are also some. The lower density also gives more opportunities, and less quarrel for resources. Ideal for individualists.

 

The advantages of the old servers are obvious.

  • Easier access to good equipment. There will be an impalong soon (Halloween at Independence) offering quality gear to new players
  • Much lower prices for much better stuff.
  • Comprehensive and well maintained traffic systems, highways as well as canals/tunnels.
  • Access to developped mines with plenty of resource veins.
  • Access to runes and moon materials.
  • After some combat training, opportunity to participate on rift combat.
  • Regular public slayings of legendaries.

This is in no way to badmouth the new servers. Many players are happy there for good reason. Still I would prefer a one way portal to the South for emigrees.

Edited by Ekcin
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You people are handily ignoring the most obvious reason to play on the new servers: you can have a career there as a new player. You can make your mark as a trailblazing crafter, a road builder, etc. People will gladly buy your QL 40 tools and your 3-speed horses.

Edited by CistaCista
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45 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

Another one delivering myths and FUD. When looking at niarja, I find 22 to 30 players several times of the day on Exo, the higher numbers on weekends of course. Xanadu has peak figures around 100 to 120 which means that Exo has a higher density. And yes, peak simultaneous logins on all Freedom servers together seldom exceed 260.

 

It is therefore easy to feel lonesome on the old servers if one does not take precautions. For newcomers it is a good idea to look for a settlement recruiting, there are some on most servers. After that one may look for an active alliance, there are also some. The lower density also gives more opportunities, and less quarrel for resources. Ideal for individualists.

 

The advantages of the old servers are obvious.

  • Easier access to good equipment. There will be an impalong soon (Halloween at Independence) offering quality gear to new players
  • Much lower prices for much better stuff.
  • Comprehensive and well maintained traffic systems, highways as well as canals/tunnels.
  • Access to developped mines with plenty of resource veins.
  • Access to runes and moon materials.
  • After some combat training, opportunity to participate on rift combat.
  • Regular public slayings of legendaries.

This is in no way to badmouth the new servers. Many players are happy there for good reason. Still I would prefer a one way portal to the South for emigrees.

 

  • A system of guard towers for hunters who bite off more than they can chew.
  • Visible examples of pretty much anything you may want to attempt.

 

2 minutes ago, CistaCista said:

You people are handily ignoring the most obvious reason to play on the new servers: you can have a career there as a new player. You can make your mark as a trailblazing crafter, a road builder, etc. People will gladly buy your QL 40 tools and your 3-speed horses.

 

I don't think anyone is ignoring it.  If you want  that frontier development thing, then sure go where the frontier is - although I found some pretty wild country in SE Rel a couple of hours ago.  As to "career", it again depends on what "career" you want.  This is mostly "big fish in little pond" kind of stuff, or maybe "new pond" is more apt. I can only speak for me, but I am merely attempting to address misinformation about the older servers, from my perspective of being a recent new player on both sets of server.

 

1 hour ago, Badvoc said:

the southern servers just feel like ghost towns.

 

Are you on all of the southern servers regularly?  If not, you can only really speculate.  I have had times on Rel where I was the only one in local and village, and other times where there were several in each.  The "alone" days I have been experiencing since day 1 about a year ago, the busy days I have experienced more since the new servers launched than before.  If course, since my time zone is UTC+10 I am often simply out of synch with leisure times.

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I was pretty much saying the same the whole time.

And for "the market" argument, especially the new players would get rather sick and probably burn out from chasing it as this game is more then selling stuff. Properly informed, anyone can get it going in this game without ever selling or buying anything

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5 hours ago, Ulviirala said:

Looking at the stats of the servers, here are some of the current settlement numbers...

 

Xanadu (8k): 993

Independence (4k): 612

Deliverance (2k): 266

Pristine (2k): 199

Release (2k): 192
Celebration (2k): 186

Exodus (2k): 165

 

Cadence (4k): 788
Harmony (4k): 988

Melody (2k): 504

 

Thanks for this overview. Your numbers inspired me to collect the number of players (at peak time, yesterday) as well, and I prepared a table and some diagrams, showing the number of deeds per square kilometer and typical number of players (at peak time) per square kilometer:

q8P9jmt.png

 

MLfFAF8.png

 

rcAHOBW.png

 

The results are quite interesting. Surprisingly, the second oldest PvE server (Deliverance) is second in deed density, while only 6th in population density. Not surprising: the new servers definitely show the highest player density.

 

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4 hours ago, Ekcin said:

Another one delivering myths and FUD. When looking at niarja, I find 22 to 30 players several times of the day on Exo, the higher numbers on weekends of course. Xanadu has peak figures around 100 to 120 which means that Exo has a higher density. And yes, peak simultaneous logins on all Freedom servers together seldom exceed 260.

 

It is therefore easy to feel lonesome on the old servers if one does not take precautions. For newcomers it is a good idea to look for a settlement recruiting, there are some on most servers. After that one may look for an active alliance, there are also some. The lower density also gives more opportunities, and less quarrel for resources. Ideal for individualists.

 

The advantages of the old servers are obvious.

  • Easier access to good equipment. There will be an impalong soon (Halloween at Independence) offering quality gear to new players
  • Much lower prices for much better stuff.
  • Comprehensive and well maintained traffic systems, highways as well as canals/tunnels.
  • Access to developped mines with plenty of resource veins.
  • Access to runes and moon materials.
  • After some combat training, opportunity to participate on rift combat.
  • Regular public slayings of legendaries.

This is in no way to badmouth the new servers. Many players are happy there for good reason. Still I would prefer a one way portal to the South for emigrees.

 

No many times I have logged on exo and there has been less than 10 players and as low as 6. I didnt say it was like that all the time did i but lets not beat around the bush, many of the players listed are alts too, exo is a very quiet server and has a ton of room, mobs and cattle. 

 

many of your pros arent really.

 

Moon metals are coming north soon, rifts coming soon, runes coming soon.

Better prices = less chance to make money also,  harder to sell your wares, developed mines with bugged side shafts from cave bugs, badly mined out mines that take forever to fix, public slayings coming to north soon.

 

So just as many pros as cons. 

 

If anyone asked me its simple do you want to find a wild bit of land, untouched to shape yourself go north, want to explore old ruins , see the sights and history of wurm go south.

Edited by Badvoc

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3 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

Are you on all of the southern servers regularly?  If not, you can only really speculate.  I have had times on Rel where I was the only one in local and village, and other times where there were several in each.  The "alone" days I have been experiencing since day 1 about a year ago, the busy days I have experienced more since the new servers launched than before.  If course, since my time zone is UTC+10 I am often simply out of synch with leisure times.

 

Was on exo a lot pre steam and after steam no so much, I liked Exo due to the low pop count. It had creatures to hunt, cattle to find and plenty of places to settle, evertime I have log on exo since it has been very quiet, a little too quiet now.

 

 

 

Sorry for double post.

Edited by Badvoc

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New players would come to old clustee if they would know the opportunities. And they come, but mainly to Ind. I see new faces every day and a lot of players that are my neighbours are new players. We are welcoming them, Amata, Nalimar, me and some other people make them to feel home (unless there are some perimeter dramas lol, but they are instructed to not pay the attention). 

Edited by Platyna
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One thing I've noticed about the Southern Isles (particularly an older island like Independence) .... sometimes it is very hard for a new player to know what is there for the taking. 

I'm newish, but at this point, I've played about 6 months or so. I have been playing on my Very First Super Awesome Starting Deed until now. I always planned to eventually sell or disband & move out to a big estate "out in the country"... turns out, I'm moving out a little sooner than I had anticipated. 

In my time in Wurm so far, I have learned how to look for & evaluate the land and structures and items on it. I know how to examine and look to see if there is a perimeter, or a deed, where I'm standing. I know how to examine structures for the amount of decay, and make an informed guess about whether the area is abandoned or being actively used by a Wurmian living free, etc. Even with all that knowledge and a general sense of comfort with "how Wurmians do things" .... as I traveled into and out of the center of Independence, it was extremely hard to figure out what was or was not someone's homestead. 

 

More details and thoughts below the thing... bc y'all know by now that I talk too much. 

 

Spoiler


Just FYI - in my mind Wurmians have a couple different approaches to property in-world. 

  • a deed - is a rectangular area of tiles that a Wurmian has paid for and reserve the rights / perms for until such time they sell or disband
  • a homestead - is a contiguous area of tiles that are actively being lived on and used by a Wurmian, but does not necessarily include a deed or deed perimeter. Examples of this are things like newbie temporary homes and starter farms in areas around starter towns. Also, Wurmians living as freefolk, using hedges and fences to mark out their space for as long as they occupy it.
  • holdings - as in "I am expanding my holdings" or "that orchard is part of my neighbor's holdings" - the sum total of tiles/properties being held by a Wurmian. Includes both deeded and not-deeded tiles. These are the areas that a Wurmian has some claim to - either by being adjacent to their deed property, or by daily usage like an orchard they maintain for both public and personal use, multiple interconnected deeds owned by alts and friends that present the area as one unified village, etc. For example: Your holdings might include your original freebie homestead plus an adjacent deed you staked in the land beyond the starter town perimeter, plus a field of berry bushes that you plant, prune, harvest, and replant as needed.

Generally, I find that Wurmians recognize & respect all three levels of "property rights."  Some of this might be a hold-over from the old "enclosure" rules, which basically conditioned Wurmians to the mindset that if a person controls access to an area, they are basically the owner of that area regardless if the tiles are deeded or not. Also, freefolk do exist, and not all of the freefolk are nomadic - so there's respect for that, too. 

With the quality level of some of the oldest structures on Independence, you can travel an entire highway and see what looks like deed after deed after deed taking up the space. Fenced and gated estates, animals grazing in pastures, statues and forges and workshops and kitchens. You get the idea. But then you dismount or disembark, and examine the ground - no perimeters. Very few actual deeds. Every structure is 99+QL with some damage... but not enough to know for sure if the place is in use still - or abandoned and kept in a good state by virtue of high QL. 

Many deed owners chose not to add their deeds to the community map - lots of Wurmians don't even interact with the forum at all - so there's really no map or listing that can be checked. Am I looking at an area that I could deed and renovate to my taste? Am I seeing someone's holdings built in the time prior to "deed it or lose it"? Plus, Southern Wurmians tend to be highly mobile - most of the people I know maintain holdings that include different deeds spread across multiple islands - or at very least, a mixture of deeds and homesteads, hunting cabins, harvesting huts, and a series of strategically placed BSBs and FSBs near resource nodes. 

 


The Northern Islands are still so young, honestly, what you see is what you get. A person doesn't necessarily need to consider the various intricacy of Wurm property rights and unwritten rules and unspoken social agreements. If you're looking at a structure, it's recently built. There's a tremendous amount of population moving around in the North, so the chances of seeing any developed tiles that are also abandoned tiles are freakishly low to begin with. If there is more than 30% decay on a structure, it's probably a safe bet that the builder has abandoned.

For all that the North is bursting at the seams... it is still more easily accessible to a new player, than coming South and trying to sort through all the ways the land is being used to find the land that merely looks like it's being used, but is actually free for them to fence, develop, deed, and/or live on. 

Edited by Amata
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33 minutes ago, Amata said:

One thing I've noticed about the Southern Isles (particularly an older island like Independence) .... sometimes it is very hard for a new player to know what is there for the taking. 
..
For all that the North is bursting at the seams... it is still more easily accessible to a new player, than coming South and trying to sort through all the ways the land is being used to find the land that merely looks like it's being used, but is actually free for them to fence, develop, deed, and/or live on. 

Well, I read about some of the Northern dramas in the forums, and heard, over my test player at/near Harmony Bay, about quite some more, also in some streams. I would say the chance to clash is ways higher in the North, maybe somewhat less on cadence. And I was looking for a possible settlement or squatter's place around the Harmony Bay environs, but that does not look very good, was a short check, ok. There seem to be lots of claimed lands in different stages of development or possibly abandonment, but "good free spots" largely gone.

 

It is quite natural that players who have more space around them tend to use and shape it to some extent. And for good neighborhood, it is always recommended to inquire a bit when founding a deed, or just be prepared for reactions. Hacking down something what is very likely to be a maintained orchard is not the best way to make friends, though it is covered by "deed it or lose it". And it is not a really good idea to plant a deed adjacently to others' perimeters without having talked to them.

 

I don't know the situation on Independence very well, the number of long term players will probably widely exceed that on Xanadu which is not only the largest (and laggyest :) ) but also the youngest of the Southern servers. Generally, I think that a new player is well advised to get in contact with established players in their neighbourhood, be it by joining a village recruiting, be it by just building a squatter place or a little deed and looking for neighbours if any. Or spending some time in an inn of a starter town exploring and gettig into contact with locals, and kingdom chat (at least in my area, the local inn offers beds and free ccfp food, a pen, and a hitching post).

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20 hours ago, Ekcin said:

The advantages of the old servers are obvious.

 

Advantages for some, disadvantages for the others. It's subjective.

 

For example, not everyone wants to start with fully developed infrastructure, society, economy...

Edited by Borgir

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If you want living space, i believe wurm unlimited is still available and you can have all the space you want

 

If people want to play with other people, it's understandable they choose the new servers

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So what happens when the North ages and is no longer a fresh start? Shall they release the west? Then the east? Then what? Or shall that be where the game draws its finale?

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On 10/15/2020 at 12:06 PM, Ekcin said:

It is therefore easy to feel lonesome on the old servers if one does not take precautions. For newcomers it is a good idea to look for a settlement recruiting, there are some on most servers. After that one may look for an active alliance, there are also some.

I think it's a little arrogant to assume that others will play the game in a certain way, and that their "lonesome" feeling is their own doing by failing to do this.  Good game design ensures that healthy game habits (i.e. ones that provoke retention) form naturally, not via some forced sense of tradition.

 

 

Now, let us look for a moment at the concept of "player identity" or more precisely "character identity" an important concept in western RPGs (they're not just any hero, they're the player's hero).  Let us say our new player wants to become a blacksmith; he's got one of two choices.

 

1.  Join the new cluster and be almost immediately useful as a blacksmith to a lot of people, able to contribute and embrace his identity as a blacksmith.  Once they set up their workshop, they're in business (i.e. can be useful to others and feel important)

2.  Join the old cluster and be utterly useless, unable to really contribute and embrace his identity as a blacksmith; at best he joins a nice alliance and then realises that they already have a blacksmith who is years ahead of him (it's a horrible feeling to feel like you're a burden to someone, and if you can't contribute this is often how you end up feeling)

 

This can be repeated with any profession upon the old cluster vs the new cluster.  In essence, the inability to really help in one's desired role is going to be offputting to people; especially when grinding still doesn't resolve this due to large skill gaps.  Note, don't be foolish and conflate this with wurm's economy; this is simply a matter of player experience and their feeling of agency and integration into the game world; a healthy game economy tends to provide a basis for this to happen in a crafting-centric game, but it isn't essential.

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5 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

I think it's a little arrogant to assume that others will play the game in a certain way,

Exactly. That is all I am saying.

 

Quote

1.  Join the new cluster and be almost immediately useful as a blacksmith to a lot of people, able to contribute and embrace his identity as a blacksmith.  Once they set up their workshop, they're in business (i.e. can be useful to others and feel important)

I tend to doubt. I am following the market offers on NFI a bit, and they had a steep drop of profit per ql ratio which is still going on. Nowadays, a new player must strive hard to get a place in the economy if at all. Much of the economy is already dominated by old Wurm players and their newly developped crafters and priests.

 

A new player coming to any of the clusters has to learn a lot before "being useful as blacksmith". That includes, but is not limited to mining, digging, woodcutting, carpentry, masonry, and fighting. Certainly I left out a lot.

 

My fresh start on the "old cluster" is not that long ago. I did not feel myself "utterly useless"  a single moment, though, admittedly, I would have wished for a bit more company sometimes (sometimes would been happy if  certain toxic neighbours would have vanished faster but so what). It took a year until I got connected to a fine alliance in my area. I prolly could have faster without my more hermitic attitude, but I was simply too occupied with my Wurmian learning, adventures, and tasks.

 

As written elsewhere and repeatedly, I think that all economy centered proposals and considerations will either be failing, or game breaking. Economy is a side game in Wurm, and will never be more.

 

Obligatory ads :):

 

 

Edited by Ekcin
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14 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

Now, let us look for a moment at the concept of "player identity" or more precisely "character identity" an important concept in western RPGs (they're not just any hero, they're the player's hero).  Let us say our new player wants to become a blacksmith; he's got one of two choices.

 

... 3. Join whatever server is desired, establish a deed of one's own, and level up smithing skills at one's own pace. Interact with neighbors in a social stage, rather than economic playing field. Be self-sufficient in most areas & have little need for any global economy whatsoever. Be a smith by virtue of spending your days smithing for self-reliance and personal projects. Be useful to the community in that (a) you are a living person, (b) you participate in chat, (c) you are willing to interact with your neighbors on whatever level is comfortable for you, and (d) once again for those in the back, you are a person with a pulse.

 

Your usefulness is not defined by your productivity, your material assets, or the market value of your creative time.

Your character identity might be linked to an occupation, but in Wurm, that occupation doesn't need to be financially profitable to be valid. 

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You forgot (e)

 

"Players who choose 3 are quite uncommon compared to those who choose (1) and (2) as it often means taking on roles you don't enjoy playing.  The parallel here is players "skipping" on a MOBA till they get to play a role they like, they will often move on and go elsewhere till they get to play a role they enjoy."

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On 10/15/2020 at 1:06 PM, Ekcin said:

The advantages of the old servers are obvious.

  • Easier access to good equipment. There will be an impalong soon (Halloween at Independence) offering quality gear to new players
  • Much lower prices for much better stuff.
  • Comprehensive and well maintained traffic systems, highways as well as canals/tunnels.
  • Access to developped mines with plenty of resource veins.
  • Access to runes and moon materials.
  • After some combat training, opportunity to participate on rift combat.
  • Regular public slayings of legendaries.

 

While i do not agree with all of these they do clearly outline the biggest differences. Granted calling them advantages is a bit enthusiastic in my eye's as an example stated before:

 

On 10/15/2020 at 5:09 PM, Badvoc said:

Better prices = less chance to make money also,  harder to sell your wares, developed mines with bugged side shafts from cave bugs, badly mined out mines that take forever to fix, public slayings coming to north soon.

 

What i will say is that we do need a more clear guideline for new players to make an educated choice which cluster they want to join.

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13 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

You forgot (e)

 

"Players who choose 3 are quite uncommon compared to those who choose (1) and (2) as it often means taking on roles you don't enjoy playing.  The parallel here is players "skipping" on a MOBA till they get to play a role they like, they will often move on and go elsewhere till they get to play a role they enjoy."

 

From who usually gets the numbers before declaring conclusions, I am a bit surprised, particularly as you said "I think it's a little arrogant to assume that others will play the game in a certain way"  Exactly how uncommon?  How do you know?  I know I am not the only explorer in Wurm, as I have seen others commenting here in the fora.  I essentially came to Wurm for 2 aspects of a role a)that semi-hermit cabin-in-the-woods thing where most of what you need you make or find for yourself and you trade with neighbours for what else remains; and 2) to explore.

 

2) is  easily fulfilled on almost any server, although on an older server I have less need to drop a tent and double back for it later.  A) is better facilitated (for me) on the old server of my choice (albeit I understand the youngest of the old) simply because I am not as frequently running into locked-down deed on Rel as I am on Cad.

 

 

14 hours ago, Amata said:

Your character identity might be linked to an occupation, but in Wurm, that occupation doesn't need to be financially profitable to be valid. 

 

This.  If a player enjoys making furniture, than they can do so regardless of "the market".  Actually, I haven't seen anyone trading furniture on any servers, so by your logic since there is no market for it players wouldn't do it.  However, while I don't see furniture in the market-place I do so it everywhere in Wurm.

 

Oh:  BLacksmith 40 here, and I have sold a few sets of horseshoes, when I wanted to. EDIT:    Also shipbuilding 30 and have sold ships, fine carpentry 20something and sold tents, tailoring 20somethng and sold bedrolls.   I have helped with a but of cleanup occasionally, and I have sold countless valrei items that I find simply because I explore.   Really, I do none of that for profit, but out of my own personal goals and interests, and the selling is just of surplus.

Edited by TheTrickster
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22 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

2.  Join the old cluster and be utterly useless, unable to really contribute and embrace his identity as a blacksmith; at best he joins a nice alliance and then realises that they already have a blacksmith who is years ahead of him (it's a horrible feeling to feel like you're a burden to someone, and if you can't contribute this is often how you end up feeling)

This is the argument I always see ignored when it comes to these discussions.

 

New players are utterly outclassed and useless compared to any established player that has years of playtime under their belt, and to be completely honest, being nothing but a burden isn't fun. They can't carry as much, they can't queue as many actions, they can't work as long before running out of stamina, they can't craft quality materials. The pitch of "oh there's nowhere to settle that's why people don't go to the southern islands" is naïve at best. If people knew enough about the southern servers to assume they was nowhere to settle, they would also know that starting fresh on a server that's been up for a few years is not going to offer the same experience as starting fresh on servers with a newer group of people.

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