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Platyna

So dying ships in your desired colour is no longer possible?

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I would expect mixing the same colour dye with the same colour dye to give the same colour dye. And exploited or not, I don't understand a war on RGB 1 1 1 black, we can make RGB 255 255 255 white, and most players love black so give it to us one way or another, because it is just a decor item that has zero influence on in-game mechanics. And while talking with Ostentatio I understood that it applies to ANY dye and WIki also says so, because according new mechanics ANY colour heavily depends on QL.  

 

@RetrogradeYou are an old player and a CRM and you know this game inside-out yet still it took you a while to process the dye situation and from unintended mechanics you changed your mind to "exploit", so if you could be confused, a player, especially new one could be too, and I am pretty sure most of the people made the black dye or bought the black dye without any idea it might be problematic, I don't believe a person knowing they exploit a bug would publicly advertise the dye in game and on forums. As I said on several occasions: let's assume the good will of the other side. Why do players have to fight with staff for various things (such as shield training, channelling etc.). I see the change here, loved to read the threads where developers ask us for input and promise to consider it. I really like it.

 

This issue we discuss now is something that also cannot be left as is because most of us (if not all) love the customized items, and we can get perfect dye of any colour but black, which is the favourite colour of most players from what I could observe. 

 

I bought some dye to dye a ship, let me do it, I exploited nothing I was selling horses and digging roads for people to get a nice ship collection, so don't you think I kind of deserved it? Should I write to development team every time I buy a nice, expensive item in game to avoid severe game play loss (i started my ship collection like 5 months ago - almost whole my in game time)? It is like we were playing chess and in the middle of the game you decided that the queen cannot move diagonally any more.

 

Okay, I understand, you could get large quantities of that, okay I understand it had to be nerfed, but nerfing it to approximately 0, because a NS 95 player struggling to make 1 L of dye that is not enough to even dye a chaise, in a game that is 18 years old is not balancing. Making special rules for one colour and making us, honest players, unable to normally use the item we obtained long before all this fuss arose, is way overboard. It is just a dye and you applied a procedure that may be suitable for...I don't know, scale armour duplication exploits.

 

I understand that QL of item should determine usability, and it was really nicely applied to transmutation liquids, where everyone can make it, and use it, but QL is a modifier of quantity required. And mind that the suggestion I posted above works against my current interests because I am already in possession of black dye saved for my ship. So it clearly shows that despite being deeply annoyed by this situation I try to suggest real improvements good for the game. Even if the only change was QL being a modifier for QTY required, you could still make enormous quantities of RGB 1 1 1 black but you would also need enormous quantities of RGB 1 1 1 black to dye things, so it would balance itself without all the drama, fuss and GMs taking away items etc. Both suggestions were based on the mechanics that is already used in Wurm and proven itself to work well, so why not kick it in? 

 

Custom items improvements should be one of development priorities in my opinion, because they bring players to the game, and they keep them there, and they bring profit to game makers - look on Counter Strike skins - silly thing - you can have a fancy looking weapon - but it became a hit and brought a lot of profit and joy. You made some amazing things rarely seen in other games - such as allowing players to create custom templates that will be in game forever, tapestries are players submitted etc. why not expand these things, along with dyes and runes (colour runes are complete absurd - you take 10-20 kg of absurdly expensive adamantine and get nothing close to your dreamed of colour, but you can take cheap ingredients and after few 1-3 tries to have e.g. a rake or a sickle that improves harvest yield)? 

 

It came to this that obtaining a full set of scale armour, that gives you enormous advantage in game, is easier than obtaining the perfect dye to paint it. 

 

There is a nice suggestion posted to improve the situation without absurd nerfs, it is waiting for months for a developer to at least comment. And I dyed some items with RGB 1 1 1 dye and some with like RGB 53 53 53 dye, and they do differ, for example stylish shoulder pads. 

 

A lot of players like pitch black, give it to us. Why we have to be discriminated against? You like perfect red? Bah! You can make it, perfect blue? Here it goes! Perfect green? Here grab a tub! Perfect white? Of course! Perfect black? You damn exploiter! Go sit in the corner!

 

Seriously, Dear Staff, I love Wurm, dyes are amazing feature, but honestly: What the hell? 

Edited by Platyna

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26 minutes ago, Platyna said:

And I dyed some items with RGB 1 1 1 dye and some with like RGB 53 53 53 dye, and they do differ

i mean thats like 20% of the way to the opposite end of the rgb scale i'd hope they'd differ

 

have you made 1-1-1 98.6+ql dye since the change and tested combining them to say that it's impossible and doesn't work?

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1 hour ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

i mean thats like 20% of the way to the opposite end of the rgb scale i'd hope they'd differ

 

have you made 1-1-1 98.6+ql dye since the change and tested combining them to say that it's impossible and doesn't work?

 

I added a tiny amount of QL99 RGB 1 1 1 dye  to a large QTY of QL50 RGB 1 1 1 dye as I save every drop, and got RGB 2 2 2 dye. That should never happen. 

 

Anyway, the essence of my postulate, a tl;dr is: 

 

Quote

A lot of players like pitch black, give it to us. Why we have to be discriminated against? You like perfect red? Bah! You can make it, perfect blue? Here it goes! Perfect green? Here grab a tub! Perfect white? Of course! Perfect black? You damn exploiter! Go sit in the corner!

 

Edited by Platyna

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15 hours ago, Platyna said:

Before the "fix" you could combine the same colour of mixed QL and retain the colour

 

that's exactly where the exploit was ffs. Stop winging about your dye barrel. That exploit IS FIXED. period. You want your ship 111 Black? make/buy 5 barrels of 99+QL black dye, mix them up, split them up, mix again - it will be 111. so your ships CAN be painted 111 black just like before. anything that changed was the ability to exploit-create the 111 dye. 

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52 minutes ago, Platyna said:

I added a tiny amount of QL99 RGB 1 1 1 dye  to a large QTY of QL50 RGB 1 1 1 dye as I save every drop, and got RGB 2 2 2 dye. That should never happen.

 

You informed me via PM that the quality of the mixed dye was in the 20s. There is no way for this to happen by mixing 99QL and 50QL dye unless there was very significant damage on the 50QL dye.

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44 minutes ago, Platyna said:

 

I added a tiny amount of QL99 RGB 1 1 1 dye  to a large QTY of QL50 RGB 1 1 1 dye as I save every drop, and got RGB 2 2 2 dye. That should never happen. 

 

Anyway, the essence of my postulate, a tl;dr is: 

 

 

 

no one is stopping you from having pitch black dye as far as i understand, its not been removed from the game.

 

Maybe if you shout louder that would make the devs change there mind?

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1 hour ago, Ostentatio said:

 

You informed me via PM that the quality of the mixed dye was in the 20s. There is no way for this to happen by mixing 99QL and 50QL dye unless there was very significant damage on the 50QL dye.

 

The resulting one yes. And I stressed it greatly that the resulting QL was 28. You can check my forum posts I also stressed on that I added 99 QL black dye, which I expected will rather increase the QL. I am not a programmer but I have some grasp on statistics and I don't know any average which would produce such a result. Probably my laughable NS skill was taken into account. And no, there was no damage. I am 100% sure the dye in the barrel was  not damaged, I use a tiny piece and seal it right away, not entirely sure if QL99 hadn't some little damage like 3-5%. Before pouring, it I did test it with a smaller QTY of the dye and RGB value didn't shift. So if there was any damage it wasn't present when the final mixing w as done for sure. 

 

To make a long story short, please:

1. Treat perfect black as any other perfect colour in the game, let us make it as any other dye. 

2. Make mixing the same RGB to give the same RGB, it is what we are all used to. 

3. QL shouldn't affect the colour but QTY of dye needed.

4. Change the metal for colour runes from moon metal to something else, can be even an alloy, or let us at least pick a main colour during creation. I tested it well - wasted 20 kg of adamantine to get a black colour rune for my wagon (ANY black), enough is enough, didn't get even brown, got 10 or so pink shades and even more green and yellow. 

5. Please give more love to custom items, there are numerous threads especially from NFI people. You have such an amazing skilled artist - Malena, and it is such a great features like we can submit a custom PMK art to be  implemented and so many items can be dyed, it is a golden egg laying goose, you just need to give it some attention. 

 

Edited by Platyna

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this thread has literally repeated the same thing like three times now

"ahh my 1ql and 99.99ql; dye combined and made bad dye :(, bug?"

"no bug, intended"

"WHAT let ME DYE MY BOAT"

"you can do it just get dye that isn't 1ql"

"NO"

"Why can i not combine ANY dye together to get the color i want???"

"because you combined 1ql and 99ql dye"

"BUG??"

"intended"


just deal with it platyna, 1,1,1 dye is meant to be rare and difficulty to achieve, the market was oversaturated with exploited dye of which allowed those low ql 1,1,1's to exist. now they can't, and those old dyes cant be combined with proper high quality ones

mixing dyes of any type together via pouring liquids together has ALWAYS degraded their color (except with the exploit), the proper method to make more of one color of dye is by reusing an ingredient on a dye (which also can improve the color) or by spamming as many as you can of similarly high quality

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3 minutes ago, RainRain said:

mixing dyes of any type together via pouring liquids together has ALWAYS degraded their color (except with the exploit), the proper method to make more of one color of dye is by reusing an ingredient on a dye (which also can improve the color) or by spamming as many as you can of similarly high quality

 

It didn't, I did it countless times before the nerf. And you commented while ignoring all the arguments posted by BOTH sides. 

Edited by Platyna

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3 minutes ago, Platyna said:

 

It didn't, I did it countless times before the nerf. And you commented while ignoring all the arguments posted by BOTH sides. 


it did, because i also did it countless times before the nerf

it was distinctly one of the reasons i remember getting upset about not being able to make a decent purple, and until we made dye via Mix instead of pouring it into the other container, we kept getting grayish and bad purple/yellow.

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1 minute ago, RainRain said:


it did, because i also did it countless times before the nerf

it was distinctly one of the reasons i remember getting upset about not being able to make a decent purple, and until we made dye via Mix instead of pouring it into the other container, we kept getting grayish and bad purple/yellow.

It didn't, and the proof is on anchor in Platinum Marina at R20 Ind, go check it out. 

Edited by Platyna

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4 minutes ago, Platyna said:

It didn't, and the proof is on anchor in Platinum Marina at R20 Ind, go check it out. 


i too can conjure up dye that i have made that credits my claims without having any real evidence showcasing how it was made, here's an example: 

UMVSO77.png
also sorry i'm not coming to dead servers

anyways your 'real' suggestion boils down to "make quality impact how much dye is needed rather than color"

to which i'll say -1 because it's a massive change to how dye works, it doesn't need to be changed, and only benefits people who use exploited dye that has a very low ql but good rgb value

Edited by RainRain
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13 minutes ago, Platyna said:

It didn't, I did it countless times before the nerf.

You mean you did it countless times before they fixed the exploit. You know, the exploit that let you stretch 1,1,1 dye and copy the RGB values where you normally would have had it shift to grey? The one you said you didn't do? That exploit?

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53 minutes ago, Sovos said:

You mean you did it countless times before they fixed the exploit. You know, the exploit that let you stretch 1,1,1 dye and copy the RGB values where you normally would have had it shift to grey? The one you said you didn't do? That exploit?

 

How to be a bug exploiter 101 (c) Platyna:

 

1. Be a new player.

2. Have mad skillz in NS = level 1 = no idea how the dye is made but it sure looks  cool (staff  members can probably check when I got my first skill tick in it, hint: long after the dye drama).

3. See an ad for a perfect dye on the official Trade channel, you like perfect things (don't we all?).

4. Earn money. 

5. Buy the dyes.

6. Buy a ship.

7. Pour the small barrels of the dye into a large barrel.

8. Dye the ship.

9. Achievement unlocked, you are now a bug exploiter. :D 

10. Yay! 

Edited by Platyna

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yea thats the nature of bug fixes, whether you knowingly knew it was a bug or not

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All that fighting, when all this could be made easier with just allowing dye makers to mix 100ql iron into 80ql black to darken it, I would not mind mixing 5k 100ql iron into 100kg 80ql black to make 1.1.1 for platina to shut her up for once.

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5 minutes ago, Zarame said:

All that fighting, when all this could be made easier with just allowing dye makers to mix 100ql iron into 80ql black to darken it, I would not mind mixing 5k 100ql iron into 100kg 80ql black to make 1.1.1 for platina to shut her up for once.

 

Damn,  I would shut the hell up with pleasure. I would be silent AF (my NS is like 8, so I still have no idea what it means but probably something better than we have now). 

Edited by Platyna

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They know it's exploit as everyone else, and not some trade secret of some very reputable dye maker like they used to say

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12 hours ago, Retrograde said:

Just to clarify.

 

The only situation in which quality will matter greatly while the RGB values will be the same is in the case of the exploited black dye. 

 

While ql is only an indicator of the starting values, if you have similar starting values the quality will be very close. 

 

 

Okay. So this thread is starting to blow my mind. 

Platyna, I understand and empathise that this issue is incredibly frustrating in terms of fairness, and the fact that you have been subject to a measurable loss through no fault of your own. That sucks beyond the telling of it. I'm sorry that you are dealing with this frustration and disappointment. 

I understand that incorporation of an RGB value into a video game, subject to texture maps and graphics drivers, and all sorts of little details in coding - I understand that these things alter the RGB being displayed on the gamer's side of the screen. I get that, given these vagaries, a change from 111 color into 222 color can end up with a very distinct difference in color's appearance. 

However. 
The more I'm reading about dye mechanics both before bug fix and after bug fix.... The more I grow incredulous. At this point, it seems to me that becoming aggravated that your 111dye is now a 222 dye is roughly equivalent to having a bucket full of Vantablack and getting pissed off because you were aiming for the CNT black developed by MIT. 

OH MY POOR ARTISTE... Your black isn't the super duper "pure" blackest black in the world. 

If you are committed to CNT black, you need to empty the bucket and start over. Else, use the damn Vantablack to paint the ship and cut your losses!

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@Amata there isn't (among things that are legal) evil things you can do to an ASD person than prevent them from completing a task especially if it is a collection. I did nothing wrong and my dreamed-of collection is ruined and I became a centre figure of a major drama just because I posted a knarr sale ad. 

 

And there is no start over. I know several people who are having an insane NS skill, and they can make me any perfect dye just not black. It IS an absurd. 

 

Wurm is a game where a lot of things consume a lot of time and resources and it should be considered into making any changes to fix issues without making people to lose 5 months worth progress in their projects, because, call me crazy, but a natural response to such thing is being angry and frustrated to the core, and making players who love and support your project angry and frustrated doesn't look like a good way of doing things. 

Edited by Platyna

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28 minutes ago, Platyna said:

making any changes to fix issues without making people to lose 5 months worth progress in their projects

You didn't spent 5 months making the dye, you spent 5 minutes buying it. Nothing is ruined, you either need to buy 1,1,1 dye at the actual price that it is worth or grind natural substances and make your own. You're mildly inconvenienced at best.

 

But judging from your posts, it seems like you're less concerned with painting the knarr black and more concerned with painting yourself as a victim.

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Being frustrated and angry about the change happening without being announced is normal and fine; but it's done, and nothing will be done to recompense it because the end result works just fine. It isn't what you had before, and it won't be. Whether that impacts your goal of having a ton of collected things dyed pitch black or not doesn't really matter; if you have a personal problem collecting the dye, that's on you- because other people don't have such an issue. You need high quality iron and tannin, and a good amount of NS; you clearly don't actually seem to know how hard it is to make dye since you only have 8 NS.

Who you are and whatever disabilities you have or your goals with the dye, and i say this without trying to be rude, really do not matter. I'm not sure if you're calling the devs/others evil for disagreeing with you or what, but that entire statement basically has nothing to do with my opinions; I don't know you, I don't play on the same server as you, and I don't know what you're doing- so it doesn't need to be brought up.

The system works. It should be hard to collect a ton of perfect black dye, and it is- but it's still possible to make it.

The old exploited dye should remain hard to use and not able to be poured into new dye to increase the quantity (Enki should've just deleted all the stockpiles of old dye rather than only cutting it by 80% tbh). Dye will be a commodity on new servers, and that's a good thing.

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Persons who are not willing to read previous posting about the matter to understand it in full are kindly requested to stop trashing the thread. Thank you. 

 

Edited by Platyna
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This thread has been answered. I'm locking this to avoid it continuing. 

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