Platyna

So dying ships in your desired colour is no longer possible?

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So, do I understand right that according to the new game mechanics, where this below is an "intended game mechanics":

 

 

if I buy enough dye of a certain, dreamed of RGB, that is usually sold and stored in small barrels as they can be sealed, I cannot get the colour I bought, for example on a boat, because if I combine dyes to have enough to use on a ship the RGB will change to some random value? 

 

Am I right?

Am I the only one who thinks this should be changed and there should be no penalty for mixing dyes with the same RGB value? 

Edited by Platyna

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iv read that other post.. might sound harsh, but you cant expect to mix exploited dye with the good one and have a good one. that exploit was fixed. Yes, you should known that as that was posted, so you shouldnt mixed to start with. Since when 28QL dye gives you even RGB 2 2 2? to get tripple 2s the dye QL must be 98+, not 28. 28QL dye should have resulted in 180 180 180 dye or so. End of the day 111 or 222 dye looks exactly the same - black. So ships can be painted black. 

Edited by Skatyna

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It might be a bit harsh to you, but mixing "non-exploited" dye of the same colour gives the same results, for example I have a perfect Platyna's red and gold dyes and I paid a lot of money to develop these colours. Not to mention that when I bought my dye it was considered normal dye, sold on public market, and It is not my fault the staff changed their mind later on, lex retro non agit.  Or maybe I should write to the development team every time I buy a nice item in game? 

 

Wurm bases dye making on RGB values, and if I want to paint my ship 88 88 88 RGB because, let's assume 8 is my lucky number and I think my ship will be a lucky one I should be able to do so. Not to mention that while mixing dyes the RGB value can change drastically. Therefore, mixing dyes of the same RGB should give the same RGB, so we can use them normally according to their intended use. 

 

I made this thread to confirm this, what IMHO is an absurd, to post the above on Suggestions forums, so it can be ignored, but at least I can do what I could to have it fixed. 

Edited by Platyna
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1 minute ago, Platyna said:

It might be a bit harsh to you, but mixing "non-exploited" dye of the same colour gives the same results. Not to mention that when I bought my dye it was considered normal dye, sold on public market, and It is not my fault the staff changed their mind later on, lex retro non agit.  Or maybe I should write to the development team every time I buy a nice item in game? 

 

Lower quality dye shifts towards gray as it is combined, so while dye can have the same RGB values, the quality difference will cause it to shift to 2,2,2. The only reason you're even noticing this is because legitimate 1,1,1 dye would never be such low quality, leading to a specific case in which you're ruining your own dye by combining it as the internal dye mechanics work exactly as intended.

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I totally agree with you, that mixing same colour Dye should result in the same colour, but believe it - it does. 

 

However, your case is different. The problem you had, that your bucket dye was 99QL(aka 1 1 1). there was nothing wrong with that bit. But your barrel was 28QL 1 1 1 dye. this one was clearly exploited by adding small bit of good dye to a big pot to lower the RBG until it became 111, however the QL of the dye didn't change. they fixed that, making all dye RBG dependant on dye QL as it should be. They posted about it, so everyone could know. you mixed those 2 same colour, but way different QL dyes together and your QL turned out 28 of the result dye. Since as i said, the dye colour is based of QL properly now, you resulted in 222. To be fair, that part must be actually bugged, as 28QL should resulted in 170 170 170 or around that. for the dye to be 111 it needs to be 99QL+ now. 

 

once again, the RBG colour is based of dye QL. its irrelevant that you mix same RBG code colours if their Ql is different. Dye is classed the same colour if their QL is the same or very marginal difference

Edited by Skatyna

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4 minutes ago, Skatyna said:

I totally agree with you, that mixing same colour Dye should result in the same colour, but believe it - it does. 

 

However, your case is different. The problem you had, that your bucket dye was 99QL(aka 1 1 1). there was nothing wrong with that bit. But your barrel was 28QL 1 1 1 dye. this one was clearly exploited by adding small bit of good dye to a big pot to lower the RBG until it became 111, however the QL of the dye didn't change. they fixed that, making all dye RBG dependant on dye QL as it should be. They posted about it, so everyone could know. you mixed those 2 same colour, but way different QL dyes together and your QL turned out 28 of the result dye. Since as i said, the dye colour is based of QL properly now, you resulted in 222. To be fair, that part must be actually bugged, as 28QL should resulted in 170 170 170 or around that. for the dye to be 111 it needs to be 99QL+ now. 

 

It doesn't, this is why I made this thread, even at minimal QL different the RGB will be messed up as RNG plays the role.

 

Stop talking about exploiting! I didn't exploit anything! I want to complete my ship collection. I have the dye I bought according to the game rules, and I want to use it on a ship. I should be able to. So I am asking for help how to do it. I answered an ad on an official Trade channel and I should be never punished for that especially with items or estate loss!

Edited by Platyna
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1 minute ago, Platyna said:

It doesn't, this is why I made this thread, even at minimal QL different the RGB will be messed up as RNG plays the role.

 

Stop talking about exploiting! I didn't exploit anything! I want to complete my ship collection. I have the dye I bought according to the game rules, and I want to use it on a ship. I should be able to. So I am asking for help how to do it. 

This is you just refusing to read what multiple people have explained to you because it doesn't align with your perceptions of how this works. No one is saying you exploited, we're telling you how QL factors in when it comes to mixing dye and that vast differences between your two batches cause the entire thing to shift towards grey.

 

You purchased dye and you want to dye your boats, however you have two different QL batches of dye with the same RGB values. These are not equivalent items, the same way that a 10QL cotton string and a 90QL cotton string with the same CoC cast are not equivalent items. If you want to dye something black then you'll either need to mix the dye you have and live with the grey shift due to the dye averaging out or you'll need to source more high quality 1,1,1 that can be mixed properly.

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dude, you just dont get it, by now i think you even wont get it. everything was explained to you. yet, you acting like you went to the shop, got a can of coke and payed with 50 quid note. the cashier gave you back 2 fake twenty notes and some change. then you went to another shop and upon paying with one of that fake twenty quid note the cashier told you he wont accept it as its fake. But yet you keep arguing with him that its not fake, as in the last shop you payed with a 50 and got those twenties back. get over it. You bought exploited dye that was "legal" for some time, now its not. change happened. 

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Please stop spamming my thread. 

 

I asked a game mechanics question and I would like a staff member to answer. 

 

My question is:

 

Because of the game mechanics was changed drastically without any prior warning, how to use our stocks of dye to dye big items without loosing our hard work or money we spent to obtain these dyes? This also applies to dyes made in aliquots AFTER the changes were introduced, as they will always vary in QL. 

Edited by Platyna

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13 minutes ago, Platyna said:

Please stop spamming my thread. 

 

I asked a game mechanics question and I would like a staff member to answer. 

Just because you don't agree with the answer doesn't mean you can keep demanding more responses. This isn't a department store.

Edited by Sovos
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I can ask developers whatever game mechanics question I want, and they can answer me or not, and it is none of your concern. 

Edited by Platyna
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If you combined like for like it wouldn't be a problem, So if you combined 99ql Black dye with 99ql black dye you would get 99ql black dye.

 

But you didn't, you combined 2 different items, 28ql with 99ql these aren't the same, so it damaged your colour as was intended, do you think if you ask the same question over and over again you will get a different answer, you bought an exploited item, to be honest when it was changed you should be thankful all the exploited dye wasn't just deleted.

 

I think the Devs have answered your questions about this on the many threads already and its started to feel your spamming the forum with this now, maybe just cut your loss and move on?

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As this appears to be a suggestion ("don't take quality into account when combining dye"), I've moved it to suggestions.  As per the linked thread, the basic mixing mechanism is working as intended.

 

Pandalet (LFM)

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As the only thing that was changed is the exploit that fixes black dye, I can firmly say I've been dying ships for years, and combining large amounts of dye to do it. 

 

Minor changes to rgb don't make a huge difference either. 

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i live with a dyeworker and the system works fine as is

consider raising nat subs and creating your own 1,1,1 dye instead of mixing together lowql 1,1,1

Edited by RainRain
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for what it's worth... even IRL paint mixers are very, very careful about what they mix and how they mix it. 

I've been painting with oils all my life, and I can absolutely tell you that a tube of paint made by X Company and called "Cobalt blue" will have any number of differences in shade, tone, and hue from the same "Cobalt blue" made by Z Company. If I end up buying paint tubes from different manufacturers, I would almost never mix them (and definitely not mix them expecting a seamless match). The hue will absolutely shift in some way.

If I start a painting using tubes of certain colors by certain brands, I will only use that brand for those colors until the painting is complete. If I ran through an entire tube of X's cobalt blue while painting, and needed more, not only would I go back to X brand for the new tube - I would try my best to track down a tube from the exact same lot as my previous tube. That would be the only way I could be confident that I was using as similar and as consistent a paint as possible.

 

Also! And this, I feel, almost directly correlates to the impact of QL on dye RGB values - 
Sometimes the oil paints that use more expensive, more hard-to-get substances have alternative "color clones" made for far cheaper. As I know you had a parent involved in art history, I'm sure you probably know about this already. For everyone else, an example is this: cobalt based paints are expensive chemical mixtures. There is a very famous type of blue called "Cerulean blue" which is based on doing crazy alchemy with cobalt. A full tube of Cerulean blue oil paint is hella expensive. However! It is possible to approximate the color of Cerulean blue using much, much cheaper chemical mixtures. These paints are labeled "Cerulean blue Hue" to indicate to artists that the underlying chemical composition of the paint is different than a true "cerulean blue" even if - by RGB standards - the colors appear to be the same. 

 

There is, and I cannot stress this enough, there absolutely IS a difference in the color, the shade, the opacity, the tone, the thickness, the lightfastness, and any other number of subtle or outright aspects of paint. For example - true cerulean mixes with other paints cleaner - I have always found it very hard to work with cerulean blue hue paints because I struggle with wet-on-wet painting application as the Hue version of the paint frequently adds a greenish look when interacting with other paint colors. 

 

Could the average person look at two paintings and tell which one used cerulean blue, and which used cerulean blue hue? ... Probably not. 

 

But the "hue" one - like Wurm dyes of a low QL - will not age well. The blue will fade and crumble. It will tend toward a greenish grey. And it will require a vastly different approach for restoration purposes. A painting with true cerulean blue - like a high QL - has a longer life, has truer colorfast properties, will fade to lighter versions of itself instead of tending toward grey.

I would never mix a tube of cerulean blue with a tube of cerulean blue hue (since they basically share the same RGB, the same "color") - and expect the two paints to mix together harmoniously. 

 

As such, it makes complete sense to me, as an artist, that two items with "identical" color values but different quality values would not actually produce the same results. And mixing the two items would pull the "pure" hue toward a different, lower quality, value. 


Cerulean%20Blue%20sized.jpg

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@RetrogradeBefore the "fix" you could combine the same colour of mixed QL and retain the colour, now even minimal differences in QL cause the risk of RGB shift. It if only the look mattered there wouldn't be such a rush to nerf RGB 1 1 1 dye, including item removals etc. let's be frank, it is like supreme compasses, it is not the look that matters here, which is a lot harder, to make  than a perfect white dye or let's be frank - it is basically impossible to make in any useful quantities.

 

Therefore, my suggestions are: 

 

1. Allow us to mix the same RGB without any risk to colour, this  is not exploitable.

2. Make RGB 1 1 1 dye easier to make, apply this: 

 

3. Why can't dye QL work like a transmutation liquid QL? So you can make a lot of dye of your desired colour at any skill, but you have to use more, if it is low QL?

 

It is just...a dye...let us have items of colours we like...without much fuss. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Platyna said:

@RetrogradeBefore the "fix" you could combine the same colour of mixed QL and retain the colour, now even minimal differences in QL cause the risk of RGB shift.

 

Mixing two dye items together always skewed the color toward grey, to some degree or another. This is not new, and was not introduced with any recent changes.

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1 hour ago, Ostentatio said:

 

Mixing two dye items together always skewed the color toward grey, to some degree or another. This is not new, and was not introduced with any recent changes.

 

I dyed all my ships to one colour by mixing dyes of different QL from different containers into one big one (typically small barrels to a huge barrel), I am still a noob and never expected any problems and never had any - the colour didn't change even one notch despite them being a different QL, and recently, as you know, I added a little bit of higher QL dye to a large amount of lower QL, and the dye got messed up, so I assume I can no longer safely pour the dye I saved for my ship into an appropriate container to dye it. 

 

Come on, doing RGB shift while mixing exactly the same colour is completely absurd and counterintuitive, and I am not speaking only about RGB 1 1 1 black. If you allowed mixing dyes of the same colour safely what would happen? It doesn't look like it is exploitable in any way.

 

Edited by Platyna

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1 hour ago, Platyna said:

Come on, doing RGB shift while mixing exactly the same colour is completely absurd and counterintuitive, and I am not speaking only about RGB 1 1 1 black. If you allowed mixing dyes of the same colour safely what would happen? It doesn't look like it is exploitable in any way.

 

If QL of the dye matters it gives a reason for NS skill, removing QL and making it easier for Noobs to make removes the need for NS skill which is a bad thing, the people who have spent years working on this skill might not want to see years of work flushed away just so noobs as you put it can make colours.

 

@Amatathank you, that sums things up really well and makes a ton of sense.

 

-1 to your suggestion Platyna, QL should always matter.

 

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6 hours ago, Ostentatio said:

 

Mixing two dye items together always skewed the color toward grey, to some degree or another. This is not new, and was not introduced with any recent changes.

 

I get that this may be the actual mechanic, but dictated by what wogic?  It is counterintuitive to designate a specific RGB colour towards which all dye mixing is moved.  It is like there is a secret invisible ingredient.  

 

If the QL actually affected how effective a dye is rather than how much extra grey has been mixed in, it would make more sense.  100QL has an effective volume of 100% while anything lower reflects its quality, e.g. 75ql has an effective volume of 75%, therefore you would need to use 1.3333 times the nominal volume when painting something.  When mixing dyes of differing ql, apply the same modifier, a volumetric weighted average of ql and RGB.  

 

Should it not be possible to make a high ql grey-coloured dye if that is your wish?  Therefore you could have 128 128 128 of any ql from1 to 100.  So, why would this be less possible the further you get from 128 128 128?  

 

As much as I appreciated Amata's post above, it largely dealt not so much with dyes of different quality but dyes made from different ingredients.  In Wurm, my understanding is that there is a pretty small list of ingredients across all dyes.

 

Edited by TheTrickster
remove tangential issue

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3 hours ago, Platyna said:

 

I dyed all my ships to one colour by mixing dyes of different QL from different containers into one big one (typically small barrels to a huge barrel), I am still a noob and never expected any problems and never had any - the colour didn't change even one notch despite them being a different QL, and recently, as you know, I added a little bit of higher QL dye to a large amount of lower QL, and the dye got messed up, so I assume I can no longer safely pour the dye I saved for my ship into an appropriate container to dye it. 

 

Come on, doing RGB shift while mixing exactly the same colour is completely absurd and counterintuitive, and I am not speaking only about RGB 1 1 1 black. If you allowed mixing dyes of the same colour safely what would happen? It doesn't look like it is exploitable in any way.

 

 

I guess I'm confused as to what you expected to happen when you mixed your two dyes. You say that you combined two different QL dyes that shared the same RGB. If you were to dye two items, one with each of the different QL dyes, would they not be different colors? Almost every other item in the game, when the QL of the same items are different and combined, the result is the new combined average of the item, based off of the QL and the amount combined. For example, if I have 50ql iron and combine it with 50ql iron, I should expect to have 50ql iron afterwards, and I do. But if I combine 50ql iron with 25ql iron, the result is shifted to a lower ql, again based on the amount of each QL combined. Why should dye be any different. It is how the game has worked forever. Even now if I mix low QL red dye with high QL red dye, one would never expect to retain the high QL dye. If that were the case it would be much to easy to keep making high QL dye, just keep adding low QL garbage dye to keep up your stocks of high QL dye.

 

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1 hour ago, TheTrickster said:

As much as I appreciated Amata's post above, it largely dealt not so much with dyes of different quality but dyes made from different ingredients.  In Wurm, my understanding is that there is a pretty small list of ingredients across all dyes.

 

This is true. And one of the reasons that I have been pondering this discussion all night long. 

 

On one hand, I comprehend the correlation between quality of a dye (paint) with how "true to color" it is when used. 

 

On the other hand, I totally understand the frustration of a person who wants to mix X with X and expects the result to be, well, X obviously. 

 

In all things Wurm, quality level has to matter. Part of why mastery of a skill is important (and has market value) is the ability to produce high QL items. So the quality level of any given item needs to interact with the substance of that item in a meaningful way. We see QL interacting meaningfully through reduced damage, reduced decay, bigger / longer buff uptime, better modifiers for action speed or success rate. Basically, across the board, in Wurm a higher QL directly correlates in some way to a better item. Cultivating a higher skill takes an investment of time and energy and focus (and premium subscription). In return, the ability to take high QL items to market commands a payout for that investment. 

 

So I've been thinking.... if QL is not linked to producing "pure" RGB values.... what could dye QL be linked to that would allow for colorfast dye mixing, AND meaningful interaction with QL? 

 

So far, the only idea I've had (and I'm not entirely sold on this, myself)... but, the only idea I've had is dye permanence. 

It goes along the lines of this:  when you buy cheap hair dye from a bodega, that dye will fade and wash out of your hair relatively quickly. A high quality dye from a pricy salon, however, can be effectively permanent - only changing when the hair itself grows out. If low QL dye in Wurm were less effective dye, maybe it "fades" and requires re-application from time to time. You can buy up a bunch of cheaper low QL dye, knowing that you're gonna have to keep going back to that big ol' barrel of low QL and touch up your dye job over and over. Oooooor, you can go to a dye master with high skill who can produce a high QL dye that will be permanent (and/or require the actual use of a metal brush to remove?). T

 

This means that having put time into earning a high skill level still matters. High QL dye will still command a higher price, and will be worth that price in a meaningful way. But it also makes it so that RGB values in dye are dependable and stable. If you want a specific RGB color value, you can shop for and mix into large quantities, exactly the color you are looking for... the reason to keep an eye on QL is no longer bc variations will wreck the color you want - but because the lower your QL sinks, the more dye you will need to use over time due to "fading." 


That's all I've got so far. 
I also liked Trickster's suggestion about effectiveness, too. 

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Just to clarify.

 

The only situation in which quality will matter greatly while the RGB values will be the same is in the case of the exploited black dye. 

 

While ql is only an indicator of the starting values, if you have similar starting values the quality will be very close. 

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-1 It makes sense the skill to actually matter

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