Bloodreina

The curse of greediness

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Disclaimer: These are just some personal thoughts and all I wanted to achieve with this post was to present my perspective over some issues and eventually make other people ask themselves some questions. And while I might use the words "right" and "wrong" through my post, they are only relative to my perspective; other than that I don't think my vision is necessarily the right one and at no point I had any pretention that others should follow it.

 

I started the game with the idea that the game has a (relative) fixed cost that I should pay from my own pocket every month and I was really Ok with that - ten bucks per month (spread between premium time and deed upkeep) didn't really sound like a lot, considering the amount of hours of tremendous fun that I could get from the game. I knew that you can potentially earn silver coins in game trading with other people or doing odd jobs here and there, but knowing that I am just a casual player I was convinced that this is not something that would apply to me, but only to the more experienced or dedicated players, so I preferred to not even think at this.

 

And for the first two months everything worked really well according to the plan, but then, as the time passed, things started to go south. I saw people around me making (quite large amounts of) money doing things that I could have easily done too, like selling their excess horses or enchanting grass tiles, so I wanted to do that too in an attempt to avoid having to use my own RL$ to finance my game expenses and just pay with silver coins earned in game. The problem was that, even when I managed to achieve that and earned over 12 silver coins during the month (which is what I actually needed for premium and deed upkeep) I still didn't stop. And at this point it was pure greed - the desire to earn as much as possible, without any need or clear goal in mind for those money.

 

Some of you may ask yourself now what the problem is... I got orders, I got enough money to finance my game expenses with in-game earnings and even set something aside, all these without working my a$$ off... pretty much the dream of any free-to-play player...

 

Well, the problem is that all this race for profits ruined the fun for me... I was no longer doing whatever I wanted to do and chatting with people just because they were nice, but I was constantly on lookout for "customers", spamming the trade and freedom channels and trying to bait everyone into using my services (not in a bad way, I was not scamming and I was only asking a fair price, but I was definitely intrusive, offering unsolicited services)... and even when I was getting orders, it meant time spent outside my deed, not skilling up, not making progresses, not having fun - all that just in order to earn some virtual coins. Totally wrong and not worthy if you ask me now!

 

So, from now on, I'll return to my initial vision. Ten bucks per month is not something that I can't afford, so I'll chose to spend them here, also supporting the developers in the process, and never open the trade channel or try to sell something again. If I'll have something extra, that I don't need (either that we talk about items or services), I'll just gift them to my friends or neighbors, eventually earning something much more important than virtual coins - real human connections...

 

Just my thoughts...

Edited by Bloodreina
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That was an awesome inspiring earnest post.....now I really want to trade with you ... :P 

 

Well good wurming out there and enjoy the game anew...

 

Best regards Galias/Crystal/Aleksandra

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I don't think there's anything wrong with what you want for yourself in the game. You've learned something important for yourself, which is always a good thing. I have always played games with the thought that I can afford to spend money, and never really thought to make money trading/crafting except in one, and only one way: finding/creating something that will sell for a lot. I've done this in just about every MMO I ever played.

 

As an example, about 20 years apart with similar games: after the first year of UO I was out in a dungeon and got a really rare melee weapon. I can't remember what it was, I just remember I wouldn't use it as a mage, and sold it for a lot - enough to buy a plot and start building a house and still having a lot left over (to eventually, a few years later, logging back in (sans house) and using the money in the bank to buy some good mage gear while I played again). The other game was Legends of Aria (well, the Legends of Ultima community server). Just about the same thing happened to me, where I participated in an event, and got a super rare sword. Sold it for a lot, bought a big plot there and a big house and still had money left over. :D

 

I keep the same mindset here, that maybe I will find/create something pretty unique and therefore find a buyer and "recoup" the equivalent of in-game silver that I spent. I like to play the game casually, even if I spend hours building wood walls, knocking them down, replacing them with stone walls, improving items, skilling up here and there, etc. That's just one playstyle. I know there are other playstyles, including the merchant. One is not better than the other if both players are getting enjoyment out of what they are doing.

Edited by Zarwaddim
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This is not a problem what you did, the problem is your approach. You see, we all seen all these Hollywood films about amazing heroes being so selfless and noble...but this...despite how nice it looks, it is an ideal, and the ideals, like perfect black body in physics, or simple gravity pendulum, or absolute zero, is they give us some reference to what is good and even perfect, but they do not exist in nature and cannot be achieved, we can try to achieve them but this will be always asymptotic route. 

 

You are a human being (H. sapiens, taxId: 9606), and these animals tend to be territorial, express strong foraging - hunter/gatherer behaviour, they form herds, and they are hierarchical. These traits led to our greatest inventions and greatest disasters. It only depends on you what it will be. But following your true nature will in most cases make you happy, and accepting it will make you even more happy. You can be your local Kim Jong Un or your local Andrew Carnegie, it is up to you. But a representative of foraging species should never be ashamed or sad they enjoy collecting items, they should be ashamed if they are major douches in the collection process. 😉 

Edited by Platyna
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Greed at this stage of the game is.... dumb.  Other than being able to finance your deed's upkeep or prem for years to come, there is no benefit to stockpiling gold now that RMT is gone.

 

The decision to remove RMT was a smart one, because the players that hoard gold were among the most cancerous of the player base.  

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4 hours ago, Bloodreina said:

So, from now on, I'll return to my initial vision. Ten bucks per month is not something that I can't afford, so I'll chose to spend them here, also supporting the developers in the process and never open the trade channel or try to sell something again. If I'll have something extra, that I don't need (either that we talk about items or services), I'll just gift them to my friends or neighbors, eventually earning something much more important than virtual coins - real human connections.

This has been my approach and is how I continue to enjoy logging into the game. There is nothing wrong with buying the silver for deed upkeep and prem, then just enjoying the game without stressing about "making rent"

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Way I feel is pay your own sub and your upkeep out of hour own pocket, and trade for fun. Make money when you want to, how you want to. Want a LMC? Set a goal to make enough money to buy one, for example. 

 

Play for fun and you'll find much more enjoyment than if you turned this great game into a job. I am right there with you.

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1 hour ago, Wargasm said:

Greed at this stage of the game is.... dumb.  Other than being able to finance your deed's upkeep or prem for years to come, there is no benefit to stockpiling gold now that RMT is gone.

 

The decision to remove RMT was a smart one, because the players that hoard gold were among the most cancerous of the player base.  


Sorta. Instead of hoarding it, you could just use it to buy more efficient grinding methods (and sleep powder) to perpetuate the grind of Up Number Go

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The questions is whether being primarily driven by mercantile considerations is the way you want to play.  Obviously for you it is not.  Neither it is for me.  Play the way you want to play, and if that does not include "funding" your play from within the game, then pfft... it doesn't matter.

 

As much as "sandbox" is supposed to mean the game is whatever you want it to be, I think that fundamentally it is still a game and therefore meant to play, not more work.

 

I can't even bring myself to grind for skills let alone silvers.  I worked on one skill for a day or two to push it over a threshold about 2 points away.  That was my biggest effort, and then I went sailing again.

Edited by TheTrickster
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Does this mean we're going to get a break from the 'one time offer 49.99c enchanted grass' message that I've seen for a while now? (not that I really care, just after the 20th time in like a week of seeing one-time-offer one just starts to see at as those fake 'everything must go' sales a lot of stores perpetually advertise)

 

I've been in a similar position, albeit mostly in other games, where I've earned ingame currency and used it to pay for my game, and it really did detract considerably from the game for me. I also think that players selling items and accounts for RL currency did far more harm to wurm than it ever did good (to the point that I suspect CCAB lost a ton of potential revenue and just in general made a REALLY bad financial decision allowing it for all the years that they did, but that's a rant that I've made many times before and doesn't really need repeating now that cashing out for RL cash is banned). That was part of what brought me back to the NFI launch: Partly being there for a big launch with new lands and tons of new activity, but more importantly, being free from bought accounts and players selling services for RL cash. 

 

So, from the start I decided, I'm not going to focus on trying to make money, I'm not going to worry about getting skills super high, and I'm not going to worry about being real competitive, especially with the people able to spend long hours on the game. Admittedly, it has been difficult. I sat on star sapphires when someone was spamming trade chat wanting to buy them for like 4s each, I've had supremes and rares since a few weeks into the game that I havent really decided to sell almost any of them until recently, mostly out of need for silver. I'm the sort of person who likes making a lot of money, who is quite competitive, and who likes getting high skills, but overall, I think I made the right decision, even if my RL money situation is pretty darn bad. I'm able to focus 100% of my time on skilling up to build my deed, on making stuff for myself to use, and for the past few weeks, on stockpiling resources and materials for my mega bridge project, without having to worry at all about filling orders or whatever. 

 

It has made my gameplay experience better for sure, and I suspect it will for you, too. Though... I don't think focusing on making money above other parts of the game is really greed is it? Oh well. 

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My best friend on the game got himself in a similar situation. Whilst he had a goal (buying prem as it was too expensive in his currency) he spent so much time trying to make rares or foraging for coin that he forgot to just have fun. He ended up burning himself out and took an indefinite break a couple months back and I miss him greatly.

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16 minutes ago, Arronicus said:

Does this mean we're going to get a break from the 'one time offer 49.99c enchanted grass' message that I've seen for a while now? (not that I really care, just after the 20th time in like a week of seeing one-time-offer one just starts to see at as those fake 'everything must go' sales a lot of stores perpetually advertise)

 

Definitely. :) But, to be honest, that was never intended to be missleading... it just took way more than I anticipated to harvest enough wemp to finish my corbita and set sail... for more than a week I always went to sleep convinced that the next day will be the day when I'll finish it. :)

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I think i've only bought silvers from the shop once, and it was during that "personal goal craze" we had when tomes were flowing left and right and to add to upkeep.

 

Always bought premium with RL cash, it's just 1000x easier and faster to make 50 euros in RL than it is to make 50 silvers in game. I put in some extra hours at work for a week and bam. If i would put in 10 hours in game of work I would have little guarantee I could make 50 silvers in that same time period. Granted I am talking about old freedom , not the new servers where the market is relatively fresh and things are more expensive. A 90 ql plateset on old freedom i could probably sell for 1 silver. The same plateset on the new servers would probably go for 10 silvers or at least 5. Huge difference.

 

Point is, it's way way easier to make RL money and spend it in Wurm than to make silvers in wurm, either by selling goods or services. It's always been that way. I make some occasional silvers from a deal or two, but it's never my goal. It's just too time consuming and low ROI trading in wurm.

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You're looking for 'evil' when there's none.. IMO, you tried something, tripped, fell, stood up and walked forward.. from what I read above.

 

I get similar 'vibes' from grinding 2-4 things at the same time(as in a row throughout the day, never used the meta exploiting of actually grinding 5 things at the SAME TIME, even smithing and panfilling for me seems disgusting, rather queue x actions and chat in gl/pm/etc).. for 1 I get no free time for random events or things I'd like to do, and on the other side I run out of fatigue and IRL time to do anything random out of the 'planned' for the day, even if I shift my 'schedule' the ***** however I want.

Keep it casual if you have fun with that.

 

RMT held the game in an area that made it something more than a 'game', now it's only a subscription mmo that you subscribe and dump your time and money, no QoL have improved the game after dropping the rmt.

 

Obviously like in any game you have played before the thing that keeps you around is at first the content, than friends, the more you stick to a game and the less new content you get, you just remain playing it for the daily quests/missions/chores + chat and random goals you create for yourself. In a sandbox that's not much different, you just get a few more options for personal projects to chase, besides typical title/achievement or hoarding x amount of a random item for bragging purposes.

 

Look at 'us' in GL, "the usual suspects" that often appear in there, we're maybe bored, maybe having a blast, but we're there and have a chat with mostly friends for the fun of it, while at the same time chase some of our own random new odd goal in the game.

 

I rarely ever sell items or services in trade, never used RMT to buy or sell, but I miss the option being there.

 

 

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I ran into a similar thing with Eve Online, where I was eventually only playing to earn in game money so I could continue playing. It's a nasty trap to fall into. I burned out there and I've thankfully avoided this in Wurm.

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I often fantasized about earning lots of money in-game, but the desire to progress my own skills, to work on my own place and its surrounding, and sometimes even to travel around was almost always stronger. This is the very case even to this day after 12 years. I totally feel you, except that I never really went down that path for real. Welcome back :)

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On 10/13/2020 at 4:16 PM, Bloodreina said:

Disclaimer: These are just some personal thoughts and all I wanted to achieve with this post was to present my perspective over some issues and eventually make other people ask themselves some questions. And while I might use the words "right" and "wrong" through my post, they are only relative to my perspective; other than that I don't think my vision is necessarily the right one and at no point I had any pretention that others should follow it.

 

I started the game with the idea that the game has a (relative) fixed cost that I should pay from my own pocket every month and I was really Ok with that - ten bucks per month (spread between premium time and deed upkeep) didn't really sound like a lot, considering the amount of hours of tremendous fun that I could get from the game. I knew that you can potentially earn silver coins in game trading with other people or doing odd jobs here and there, but knowing that I am just a casual player I was convinced that this is not something that would apply to me, but only to the more experienced or dedicated players, so I preferred to not even think at this.

 

And for the first two months everything worked really well according to the plan, but then, as the time passed, things started to go south. I saw people around me making (quite large amounts of) money doing things that I could have easily done too, like selling their excess horses or enchanting grass tiles, so I wanted to do that too in an attempt to avoid having to use my own RL$ to finance my game expenses and just pay with silver coins earned in game. The problem was that, even when I managed to achieve that and earned over 12 silver coins during the month (which is what I actually needed for premium and deed upkeep) I still didn't stop. And at this point it was pure greed - the desire to earn as much as possible, without any need or clear goal in mind for those money.

 

Some of you may ask yourself now what the problem is... I got orders, I got enough money to finance my game expenses with in-game earnings and even set something aside, all these without working my a$$ off... pretty much the dream of any free-to-play player...

 

Well, the problem is that all this race for profits ruined the fun for me... I was no longer doing whatever I wanted to do and chatting with people just because they were nice, but I was constantly on lookout for "customers", spamming the trade and freedom channels and trying to bait everyone into using my services (not in a bad way, I was not scamming and I was only asking a fair price, but I was definitely intrusive, offering unsolicited services)... and even when I was getting orders, it meant time spent outside my deed, not skilling up, not making progresses, not having fun - all that just in order to earn some virtual coins. Totally wrong and not worthy if you ask me now!

 

So, from now on, I'll return to my initial vision. Ten bucks per month is not something that I can't afford, so I'll chose to spend them here, also supporting the developers in the process, and never open the trade channel or try to sell something again. If I'll have something extra, that I don't need (either that we talk about items or services), I'll just gift them to my friends or neighbors, eventually earning something much more important than virtual coins - real human connections...

 

Just my thoughts...


Wait this is from the girl literally charging people 15 silver a month to be a villager?

 

 

I'm so confused here...

 


Ok wait I reread this.. So the whole point is that she is identifying her own greed, realizing how it affected her actions and drove her into a play-style she didn't enjoy, and now she's deciding to focus on what she actually enjoys?

I mean to be fair you can make worthwhile connections by selling services at an affordable price, especially if those services positively effect the players around you.

 

The real predicament comes if you start to offer services for free right? If you give things for free then it negatively affects the market and other people who need to make money to pay for deed/sub.

I personally try to set my prices on the higher side to create demand in the market for people to sell for less than I do, so as to create opportunities for free to play players.

 

Edited by Andru

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36 minutes ago, Andru said:

Ok wait I reread this.. So the whole point is that she is identifying her own greed, realizing how it affected her actions and drove her into a play-style she didn't enjoy, and now she's deciding to focus on what she actually enjoys?

 

Exactly that.

 

 

 

36 minutes ago, Andru said:


I mean to be fair you can make worthwhile connections by selling services at an affordable price, especially if those services positively effect the players around you.

 

The real predicament comes if you start to offer services for free right? If you give things for free then it negatively affects the market and other people who need to make money to pay for deed/sub.

I personally try to set my prices on the higher side to create demand in the market for people to sell for less than I do, so as to create opportunities for free to play players.

 

 

And that's why I said that whatever I wrote here doesn't necessarily apply to (all) other people. People that want to trade and find fun in this should still do it. I just said that it turned out to be bad for me, and since it may apply to other people as well, I let them know my thoughts.

 

And about me, potentially offering free services (within the limit of my time/resources) affecting the market, it must be a joke. I'm just one person, playing casually, focusing on my own deed and plans and without an interest to further promote any services, but just occasionally do them for free if a friend asks me to... for example if I'm visiting a friend's deed, why not enchant one of his grass tiles or refresh him for free if I'm already there and the cooldown is not used. How tiny you imagine the market is if me doing such small favors occasionally would ruin the market and not let others make the money they need?

 

 

 

Also, I'll highly appreciate if you would stop attacking and harassing me in any forum thread I make. I got it, you don't like me. It's fair enough. I don't like you either. Now can we please behave like two adults and mind our own business? Thanks! :)

Edited by Bloodreina
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2 hours ago, Andru said:

The real predicament comes if you start to offer services for free right? If you give things for free then it negatively affects the market

 

That has got to be one of the saddest things I have read for a while - & I used to read crime reports for a living.

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Please refrain from personal attacks. 

 

Pandalet (LFM)

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What's the point of being greedy, usually any extra earned money I got I usually wasted on having fun with new players or Friends ingame

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On 10/16/2020 at 4:34 AM, Andru said:

The real predicament comes if you start to offer services for free right? If you give things for free then it negatively affects the market and other people who need to make money to pay for deed/sub.



gonna go to freedom and just make a ton of free tools just to crash the market honestly

can you imagine people actually charge like 3 silver for a pizza

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It's a tough balance, if you look at it from a buyer's perspective it's great to have a bunch of merchant threads and general goods/services for sale. It also helps buyers if there are lots of sellers as it makes pricing more competitive.

 

I've been running a fairly active thread for the last month and I must say it can be very time consuming, initially I had multiple days where all I was doing was making orders. There was a lot of demand, so I wanted to offer my services so people could get what they want. I've managed to find a nice balance by adjusting my pricing so I get more time to do what I want. Once there are enough other people in the market offering good items, I'll close my store as it definitely isn't sustainable for me at least. 

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1 hour ago, RainRain said:



gonna go to freedom and just make a ton of free tools just to crash the market honestly

can you imagine people actually charge like 3 silver for a pizza

I have a ton of tools in my rack that I have scavenged and scrounged. I am probably ruining the economy, because I brought heaps of items on-deed to stop their decay, but for me it enjoyable to be able to give a new starter an extra saw and hatchet, for example, so if they want to focus on woodshop stuff they can literally use up the tools before having to worry about smithing or buying new ones.  I also have a ton of bows and a bunch of staves, found or donated, again just to stop it decaying and to give away as needed. QL on all of this is from 30s up to 80s, useful for skilling at the low end and just plain useful at the high end. Some I made, but most I "discovered" exploring.   But then I am a newb player on an old server and I have low skills so I must be a useless burden unable to do what I want in the game.  🤪

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