Samool

Wurm Online Roadmap - What's after Steam?

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Very happy and excited to hear about this roadmap as a returning player. 

 

Improving UI, graphics, exploration, some general game play and combat sounds awesome! I think that stuff matters a lot for player attraction and longevity. I know some bug fixes are big concern, I can agree to that too. But this is great news! 

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Also, I've commented on this many times in the past, but when you do the COMBAT tweaking, please (pretty please?) address the targeting issue of being locked to a target that is no longer close, while a close enemy is attacking.  We should auto switch from a target not in range, to one that is attacking us. 

 

This is my single biggest contributor to death in Wurm.  I go on a trip, something targets me as I ride past.  several KM later, I need to take a bio break, go afk and while gone, something else moves in to attack.

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31 minutes ago, Wurmhole said:

We should auto switch from a target not in range, to one that is attacking us.

 

Nice idea, and I think, very useful for newer players, but I'd like this to be a choice or toggle.  We also need to think about how far away is 'not in range'.  However far I am from them, I don't think I would want to lose target on a Dragon if a nearby rat bites me, or a rift ogre mage if a lesser rift creature targets me.  Even if I'm very far away, I can imagine some situations when I want to keep that original target, for example if hunting for a specific animal using a bow.  Targets already disappear if you really move very far away from the animal, I wouldn't want that distance to decrease, just because another aggressive animal is nearer.

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I agree with you Muse. Toggle would be even better.

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6 hours ago, archer said:

THIS!

 

Can we please add more skin colours? It's 2020...

 

How is the fact that it's 2020 relevant? 🤔 2020 seems to be a pretty awful year in all regards so far, at least in the west. 

 

Also, because it's a dead horse that's worth beating endlessly:

No munster. Skill decay was awful.  Nothing would kill Wurm faster (well, I suppose server/character wipes would, but let's ignore that for now) than bringing back skill decay. 

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My hope is that the combat overhaul is so significant and impactful that nobody will be able to consistently guess what is "top tier" anymore and that people will have to re-learn combat for the most part. 😁

The fact that 90% of pvp endgame is sickle/lms has always been awfully boring to me.

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, RainRain said:

My hope is that the combat overhaul is so significant and impactful that nobody will be able to consistently guess what is "top tier" anymore and that people will have to re-learn combat for the most part. 😁

The fact that 90% of pvp endgame is sickle/lms has always been awfully boring to me.


I agree with you on that. I think the combat should be driven by a diversification overhaul as much as any other reason. Essentially it should do the same thing that the cooking update did for food in Wurm. Let every weapon be useful in its own way to encourage people to skill up multiple weapon types instead of trying to max 1 type and using the same thing in every situation.

Edited by Hammer

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, wipeout said:

We had skill decay for years and people who got to high skill begged none stop for it to be changed as it lead to such a point where people had to grind hours a day to keep 3-4 skills at the same level let alone progress then skill decay was set to 90 then 70 and then it was decided to just take it away as it didnt add to the game it only meant people had to play more or get punished for not being able to play

Same goes with item decay the game is all about long term playing not 1-2 months or a year max skill gains now days are so much faster then what they used to be because people bitched that it was to hard to catch up to those who had spend years already playing
Imagine the year is 2005 and the highest skill is some guy who lives with tich who has 55 blacksmithing and is charging 5s for ql 50 blacksmithing tools with no enchants and 30-40 enchants would cost 2s a piece extra there is no mass storage no wagons no horses no boats and only 2 servers the cost of a guard tower is 15s a tower and no one is crazy enough to mass make them
Back then going away for 2 weeks meant if you had 50 skill you could come back to 49.20 or less even it was horrible and people who got to 90 where basically forced to spend all day doing that single task or risk loosing their 90's easy

You do not want skill decay as it adds a chore to the game that is not a fun gameplay loop you want the game to be more enjoyable and last longer find proper fun gameplay loops to add to the game not reintroduce mechanics that where taken out because they where hated by everyone

 

Since you're the only reply I saw that didn't resort to personal attacks and hyperbole I'll address your comments and then be done with it. Thanks for actually focusing on the discussion of the mechanics.

 

There are plenty of intelligent ways to do decay that don't involve blanket skill decay (ie: it only kicks in after you have too many high skills, it only decays your over-the-limit skills down to a breakpoint, etc etc.) In effect, you could maintain a skill at 90, 2 at 70, 3 at 50, etc. as an example, without suffering decay. The purpose of skill decay isn't to punish a player, it's to allow new players the room to be able to find a niche in the game they can franchise, without having to grind first to 90 before they can ever participate meaningfully in the markets. Balance of item decay would be very much contingent on controlling for playtime, to get a baseline. Putting everybody in the same swimming pool (a player playing 8 hours a day on 6 characters and a player playing 3 hours a weekend on one character) is a guaranteed failure to balance in regards to item decay, as the game moves at staggeringly different speed for those two examples.

 

When a server in Wurm runs persistently for years, heavy players accumulate and lockup lots of 90+ skills, 70+ skills, etc. which I know I don't have to explain to you, means every new player has to essentially get close to 90, or 70, before they can ever expect to participate in that particular market. For a 90 skill blacksmith for example (for anybody who doesn't know this), making a 50 Ql hammer is entirely trivial, making a 70 Ql hammer is a pretty quick ordeal. On a fresh server, the blacksmiths sell their gear at 30, 40, 50.... on up the chain and they get good incentives (people pay decent prices) all the way up. Once they achieve 90, the next blacksmiths climbing up that ladder can't really sell anything for 30, or 40, and they get a pittance for 50, 60, 70 because the higher skill can crank those things out in a tiny fraction of the time. What a 50 skill blacksmith spends 30 minutes on a 90 skill blacksmith does in the time it takes to heat a forge and lump. This isn't a problem if a player holds one or even two such franchises, the game has dozens and dozens to choose. But when a player holds 6 or 12 franchises, a handful of heavy players lock up all the interesting franchises in the game and you see exactly what you have described and has been happening for the past decade or so - new players walking in, grandpa simpson hat on a rack style, taking one look at the state of the game, see the only immediate paying participation in the market involve commodities (dig 10,000 dirt, etc), and most grandpa-simpson-style walk right back out. The ones that stick around are the few that like to play solo or small group style inside a big MMO world. That makes for very low playercounts, as we've seen for the last decade.

 

Wurm is currently setup in a weird ladder system within a persistent world (player counts get too low >> wurm needs money >> release fresh server >> rush to scarce (fun) new server >> skills gets locked up, materials accumulate endlessly >> boredom sets in, quit, quit quit, mos new people don't stay >>  repeat). A few years ago they tried to short circuit this repetition with Steam v1, the Unlimited version, to get a fresh cash infusion and playerbase, which didn't work out so very well. Since they abandoned that, they've tried Steam v2 cash infusion with release of Wurm Online and 3 new islands. It's been fun, but the fun is (for people like me who enjoy the trading and scarcity of games) very quickly waning. The login numbers are already dwindling and the new servers haven't even been up 3 months.

 

Part of the reason there are so many angry replies is that most of the people that have stuck around so long to this system are the very few that play really heavily and happen to like sitting atop the heap, or are happy playing wurm as a single player game with a chatroom. And if you've paid any attention to GL-Freedom, you know plenty of those people who have accumulated over the years make the daily global chat a pretty intensely toxic place on a daily basis, so the angry replies are no surprise.

 

Player counts have been declining for years not because of decay. Decay hasn't existed in a meaningful fashion for a great many years. As you already detailed, it got politicized out of the game. Persistent worlds get stale when nothing disappears, it's not unique to Wurm. Even the real world thrives from decay (accountants call it depreciation).

 

Thanks for the discussion, wipeout.

Edited by munster
changed skill to Ql in couple places, brainfart
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Wurmhole said:

I agree with you Muse. Toggle would be even better.

Mind that you can already drop a target in the new UI by double clicking on it or choosing no target. After that, the target window gets empty. This could be improved in the sense that the recent attacker appears in the window as soon as the previous one has been abandoned, which is not the case atm, instead the window stays empty unless a fresh attacker starts, or you deliberately choose a target (not sure whether this is a bug). All else, the functionality is there in the new UI. Even the nasty bug in the old UI that you could not do no target after leaving/entering a cave with a target from cave/surface is gone which I highly appreciate.

 

As to Munster, -100 to skill decay.

Edited by Ekcin
addendum
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Does the fighting change mean any 'power ups' for non-priests of any sort or we're ONLY talking about UI special moves and focus meter or including easier ways to try and block attacks, we currently can not see what the enemy is trying to hit.. unless we read about it(examine in event log or combat log).. or if there are multiple enemies.. it's absolute "magic" to calculate who's where and which is the one you should prioritize to block/evade if possible. 

Additionally.. rift mobs spam aoe on players, while players can't do other than poke 1 at a time, and the high cr barely allows 'many' hits to land, sacrificing hp sustainability with LT/ED with high elemental damage lets some decent hits, at the cost of depending alts or random other players to cast LoF or being korean prodigy doing witchcraft and keybind equip gear from toolbelt or opened inventory(/group) on screen for elemental 2h/shield+1h/anything of the mixed sort to switch from 'dps' to def(higher survivability) at times.. 

 

Priest vs non- is land and moon when it comes to pvp, not talking about champs.. only edge for non priest is MAYBE path's ability(but both 'classes' can have a path, so..) that comes in play every xx hours(once a day).

 

Balance is 'slightly' ridiculous for pve and pvp.

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Posted (edited)

alchemy would be nice to have alchemy as part of it..   like  making potions that give short duration buffs. like run speed, body strength,  2 months playing on new server and i still cant load creates. would love a potion for a 1-5  minute duration to BS so i could load a few things.  all skills could use a small buff some times to make an item your close to being able to make. use potions on a farm field to give an extra yield to it "fertilizer"  it shouldn't be easy making these. but fun making like 5 parts to it then add them together.  

asheron's call on the early days we all had to just find the things and try tons of combinations to make things. like cooking update.  i'd like to see that with in 5 yrs.  i know i'll still be here...

 

love the plans though. and hope they come fast

Edited by validate

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How about lean to roofs?  Cant have stables without that. Also would look wonderfull

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Can we get a new archery type... like a cross bow? 

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For everyone wanting  combat variety, just look at the games out there.  Whatever class you are, there is always a max version of skill/gear that everyone gravitates towards.  People that want variety always have to sacrifice to get variety.  When the game maker makes a little balance tweak, there will be a few weeks or adjustment and suddenly everyone switches to the new max combo.Meta?  Is that the slang that the kids use now days? 

 

Only way I see keeping folks on their toes in their quest to max gear, would be a little variable injection into the numbers.  Make different armors and weapons have hidden bonuses that last a week.. maybe a couple days?  Every server reboot?  Something that keeps people wondering what the best of the best is that day and inspires folks to train up more weapon skills.  Probably also good for the market economy.  Probably a terrible idea, but it could be fun?

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20 hours ago, Samool said:

"we’ll be introducing additional in-game tips and tools to help the newer Wurmians learn the ropes and perhaps not get too frustrated by constantly digging through the wiki. (though we do acknowledge that at some point that might always be a requirement)"

 

As a returning player something I have found quite frustrating is the wiki itself. It seems so outdated, articles either lack information or are filled with irrelevant information. Perhaps this compliant is more directed towards the community rather than the devs themselves; which brings me onto another thing worth noting with regards to new players: information online with regards to skilling can often be misleading due to the age of the game, for instance I had a new player join my village and I saw he'd been banging out arrows shafts like no ones business after he read about the ol' arrow shaft + forge technique  not knowing that the BSB default is now log rather than knife. There is updated content on Wurm, but it tends to be long streams or written guides. Not really much you can do about that though I guess?

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Kilts!!! and clothing options.

Musical instruments maybe.

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Ruaridh said:

clothing options

Musical instruments maybe

or else.

please?

Edited by Jore

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Posted (edited)

I would love to see something done about players who ghost their deed for months at a time and never come back. Kinda sucks when a lot of players will take the good spots, build their deed up, then never log in again. This makes it difficult for more dedicated players to expand their deed to make room for more people to join. Also, could we make perimeter tiles optional? Because I hate them. Or at least make them available to overlap on other perimeter tiles?

 

The new animals excite me a lot!!! I can't wait to see what you guys add :) 

 

And with the new combat system overhaul, make sure that you keep the auto battle as some players, like myself, won't want to dedicate to combat. I avoid it mostly in the PVE server, but sometimes you gotta slaughter an animal.

 

Also what about adding more npc options like bards, cooks, laborers, npc's that just walk around to take up space to give a more role playing game feel? Obviously I wouldn't mind paying for them either.

Edited by Collen
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I have to say, at the risk of whiplash, that some kind of skill decay should not be too easily dismissed.  It should be very limited and very slow though, and recovery should be at something like the 3x for death-losses.  This would model the real world a bit, where skills that you don't use for a long time get a little bit rusty - but if you are an adept then your "rusty" kung fu is still strong and you will get back up to your full speed very quickly indeed.  

 

Essentially, I think skill decay would be good within the following parameters;

  • Doesn't even start until a skill has gone unused for a significant amount of time (at least weeks, possibly months)
  • Is always very slow (I haven't calculated but should on the order of single tick decrements every x-period, or possibly RNG chance at a single tick every x-period)
  • Is capped.  Because "it's just like riding a bike" 😉.  IRL, nobody ever completely loses their acquired skills through disuse.  You just lose that last bit of "edge".
  • Skill is recovered to previous max at an accelerated rate.

It would add a bit to depth to the game, but may be too much development effort to be worth it.

 

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Posted (edited)

I personally don't agree with skill decay, I believe skills are important milestones in Wurm, and milestones aren't meant to be moved.  I see no reason to punish those players who have put the most into a skill.  Currently, if you get 99 in a skill, it's locked, it's safe even if you die and I think we need these milestones that are worth striving for.  To chip away at these milestones of success would be to devalue this most personal of accomplishments.  Skills reflect our own personality and choices in our Wurm life, far more than possessions like tools and weapons, those are merely 'things'.  Our 'career' of skills is the only true possession we get to keep, even when all else is lost and decayed away.

 

"...a real possession in the changing fortunes of time."  - Max Ehrmann, 1927

 

There is a lot more potential in the skills we currently have, to add further playability, and I think we can squeeze a lot more juice out of the current skill tree.   Combining disparate skills to produce new goals could be one way of encouraging players to try lesser-used skills, and encourage co-operation and trade between players of different play styles.

 

I am sure everyone has ideas of how we could combine different skills, to accomplish new things.  For example if we combined Tracking and Taming, perhaps if we spent enough time successfully tracking a passive mob such as a mountain gorilla or hyena, we could unlock a rare chance to temporarily tame it, if our taming skill is also high enough.  Combining Foraging and Metallurgy could maybe one day produce a new improved alloy from iron rocks.  Perhaps we could also one day combine Papyrus-making and Prospecting to produce a paper map of an underground mine.

 

To add decay to skills would, I believe, place players on an endless treadmill of re-grinding and repairing lost skill in their highest skill categories, I think many would lose heart, and it would not give them the incentive to branch out and try other skills.

 

For players who have been away from the game a while and  are thinking of returning, there will be less incentive to return, because if decay is introduced, their characters will not be in the same condition as they were when they left them.  We have firm assurance that our once-premium characters will never be deleted or removed, and for me, that means either in whole or in part.

Edited by Muse
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6 hours ago, munster said:

 

Since you're the only reply I saw that didn't resort to personal attacks and hyperbole I'll address your comments and then be done with it. Thanks for actually focusing on the discussion of the mechanics.

 

There are plenty of intelligent ways to do decay that don't involve blanket skill decay (ie: it only kicks in after you have too many high skills, it only decays your over-the-limit skills down to a breakpoint, etc etc.) In effect, you could maintain a skill at 90, 2 at 70, 3 at 50, etc. as an example, without suffering decay. The purpose of skill decay isn't to punish a player, it's to allow new players the room to be able to find a niche in the game they can franchise, without having to grind first to 90 before they can ever participate meaningfully in the markets. Balance of item decay would be very much contingent on controlling for playtime, to get a baseline. Putting everybody in the same swimming pool (a player playing 8 hours a day on 6 characters and a player playing 3 hours a weekend on one character) is a guaranteed failure to balance in regards to item decay, as the game moves at staggeringly different speed for those two examples.

 

When a server in Wurm runs persistently for years, heavy players accumulate and lockup lots of 90+ skills, 70+ skills, etc. which I know I don't have to explain to you, means every new player has to essentially get close to 90, or 70, before they can ever expect to participate in that particular market. For a 90 skill blacksmith for example (for anybody who doesn't know this), making a 50 Ql hammer is entirely trivial, making a 70 Ql hammer is a pretty quick ordeal. On a fresh server, the blacksmiths sell their gear at 30, 40, 50.... on up the chain and they get good incentives (people pay decent prices) all the way up. Once they achieve 90, the next blacksmiths climbing up that ladder can't really sell anything for 30, or 40, and they get a pittance for 50, 60, 70 because the higher skill can crank those things out in a tiny fraction of the time. What a 50 skill blacksmith spends 30 minutes on a 90 skill blacksmith does in the time it takes to heat a forge and lump. This isn't a problem if a player holds one or even two such franchises, the game has dozens and dozens to choose. But when a player holds 6 or 12 franchises, a handful of heavy players lock up all the interesting franchises in the game and you see exactly what you have described and has been happening for the past decade or so - new players walking in, grandpa simpson hat on a rack style, taking one look at the state of the game, see the only immediate paying participation in the market involve commodities (dig 10,000 dirt, etc), and most grandpa-simpson-style walk right back out. The ones that stick around are the few that like to play solo or small group style inside a big MMO world. That makes for very low playercounts, as we've seen for the last decade.

 

Wurm is currently setup in a weird ladder system within a persistent world (player counts get too low >> wurm needs money >> release fresh server >> rush to scarce (fun) new server >> skills gets locked up, materials accumulate endlessly >> boredom sets in, quit, quit quit, mos new people don't stay >>  repeat). A few years ago they tried to short circuit this repetition with Steam v1, the Unlimited version, to get a fresh cash infusion and playerbase, which didn't work out so very well. Since they abandoned that, they've tried Steam v2 cash infusion with release of Wurm Online and 3 new islands. It's been fun, but the fun is (for people like me who enjoy the trading and scarcity of games) very quickly waning. The login numbers are already dwindling and the new servers haven't even been up 3 months.

 

Part of the reason there are so many angry replies is that most of the people that have stuck around so long to this system are the very few that play really heavily and happen to like sitting atop the heap, or are happy playing wurm as a single player game with a chatroom. And if you've paid any attention to GL-Freedom, you know plenty of those people who have accumulated over the years make the daily global chat a pretty intensely toxic place on a daily basis, so the angry replies are no surprise.

 

Player counts have been declining for years not because of decay. Decay hasn't existed in a meaningful fashion for a great many years. As you already detailed, it got politicized out of the game. Persistent worlds get stale when nothing disappears, it's not unique to Wurm. Even the real world thrives from decay (accountants call it depreciation).

 

Thanks for the discussion, wipeout.

See the only real issue with having skill decay in a game like wurm is that no matter its implementation it will punish a person for playing the game by the nature of what wurm is (a game without item level restrictions and such) you get rewarded for playing more so to punish the player for doing that breaks their entertainment and they will look elsewhere
The thing you seem to be caught up on is "wurm's market is ruined because people with more time get higher skill and it makes anyone else's effort invalid" which although true isnt what wurm is about wurm's economy is broken and will remain broken until cluster wide markets become a thing and the playerbase grows to a point where the dozens who can no life grind to 90 in a month without enchants can not keep up with demand for high quality but even then there are no item restrictions so people will always go for highest first unless you want to do things on your own/in your small group

There are only a few ways to really "fix" the game in order to make a thriving market but all evolve in destroying what wurm is about and that is a sandbox world where you the player get to carve out your own little slice of home it isnt a economy game it isnt a typical mmo about grinding levels accumulating more silver and getting 5% stat increase items every 5 levels of a skill it is about building your own place or working as a village and progressing and that is something i see a lot of people failing to grasp they believe that reaching 100 in a skill is wurms main goal but it was never intended for that to be the case

If you go back far enough like i mentioned before skill gain was slow and i really mean slow it would take people a few years to get to 90 even with efficient grinding as 1 sleep bonus wasnt given out so often we didnt have mass storage and skill gain rate was just slower but this lead to new players feeling like they had to spend 2-3 years before they could make 5s of a smithing skill as again soo many players believe they have to play the market they have to carve out their little corner and monopolize it and failing to grasp what wurm is about

Take me for example i have been playing since beta days and it wasnt until they disallowed account sharing that i decided to grind my blacksmithing up from 55 to 90 quickly and it nearly burned me out but i have digging and mining in the 99's closing in on 100 and i can do those for days on end most of the silver i make disappears in upkeep and i dont even make that much anymore as 99% of my time is spend building a giant project
But anyway the main reason a lot of people get annoyed that they cant sell anything is because they have the mindset of other mmo's the idea that there are countless of thousands of people all playing with item level restricted items which in wurm isnt a thing on either of those and there in lies the issue most players their minds are used to games with item level caps

As for wu its kinda an interesting reason why 1 is partly because of a cash grap but the main reason is there where 2 projects of wurm emulation going on the first one was done as a students exam in which he had 2 months the time to create something and he decided to recreate wurm from the ground up and the result was at the time a wurm online feature rich with less bugs in both the server and client that ran faster and by the end of month 2 had more features(this legit scared rolf based on the replies and angry emails that he started to send out to this student) the 2nd project was build on the idea of the first taking a lot of inspirations from it and help and got to the point where wurm was at as well except it ran way way more smooth on xanadu sized maps without lag even when simulating thousands of items
That project was mainly a "hey lets emulate wurm as we dont wanna pay for it" kinda thing of a bunch of players some which got declined to work with rolf and others who where just tired of rolf's behavior at the time all banding together to work on that project
When that 2nd project grew big suddenly wu became a thing and subsequently the 2nd project died out within a month of wu's release

Now those 2 projects never really where talked about much you had to know the people who worked on them or where part of a group where they played in as 1 they where also the people who provided live maps and the likes for years to pvp kingdoms and other shenanigans like model size changes color overlays and so on and that is also 1 of the reasons the 2nd one started because a bunch of them did get banned for it

Anyway back to the topic of how to address players having too high of a level making low players useless in the market, the main thing to realize is that the old players will always grind a character to high on a new server to cash in on those few dozen gold they can get and then go back to casual play or even quit but it is the new players who will live on mostly and in the end the market although tempting should not be the focus for any player nor be the reason for major game changes that make the overall gameplay loop worse
I get it is annoying when a no life person can get to 90 skill in a month or 2 and then dominate the market trust me we did this for blacksmithing in the first while on melody our merchant and spam in trade was ql 50 when others where at 30-40 at the same prices as those selling 30's and we only half tried doing it but in the end those people will burn out they wont be happy they joined with 1 goal and 1 goal only accumulate silver no matter the damage done and then transfer that silver to the cluster they care about for more upkeep which well we did that was our goal make a bunch bring it over and enjoy it
But long term the players who dont have much time will catch up and surpass those people and will achieve their goals and slowly will fill the market



But again basing things off the market and making changes to that wont do the game good as the game was never designed around a "global market" style of play it was designed around small community or kingdom vs kingdom play where trade happened in those clusters and in a cluster of 100 people having 2-3 people being a blacksmith isnt a bad thing especially in pvp where everyone has a few main skills to focus on getting up and grinding
And that is the thing wurm was originally meant to be a full pvp game with pve only becoming a think because of continuous camping of spawn town and "convert or die" tactics that involved murdering the templars at spawn and walling in spawn and all kinds of other shenanigans and even after all that was long gone and done with it was still a pvp centric game it wasnt until way later when pvp died out because of the pvp crowd getting upset with gm interference and hacks and the likes that it became a more pve focused game but at its core the game really is focused on community play vs global play with a global market and thus if you really want fairness for all regardless of skill level it will require some major game changes

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Posted (edited)

can we get human npc brigands to fight/practice combat with, practice for if we go to pvp?

Edited by Andru

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23 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

 

GOATS!  (Please)

um. no. We need POLARBEARS !!! Slightly biased though :P 

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As always over the past 7 years, Ima grab me a bucket of coffee and see what comes next, looking forward to all the new stuff, keep up the great guys! :D❤️

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