Darklords

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1 minute ago, Postes said:

I'm all for good PvP, but priesthood is a part of PvP. It's knowing how/when to cast. MR has Fo priests that just go into the middle of a fight, and then come time to cast Light of Fo they're de-horsed and easy to target and stop. If you watch a BL videos, people usually scorn a few tiles outside the fight, and tell others to move to them. 

 

The man can't even bind his spells to a keybind and he's pretending like it's player skill.

Based on spell list alone it's hands down the best pvp priest, you're inexperienced if you can't just look at the list and tell that.

 

The reason it wasn't on top since the update is because all the chaos kingdoms that have had more than 5 active players since patch have been WL.

I don't know why you try to pretend libila isn't the strongest priest to try to gain an ingame advantage, but hey man whatever strategy works for you.

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3 minutes ago, Groot said:

 

but hey man whatever strategy works for you.


Seems like it's been going a lot better than yours so far. 

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12 minutes ago, Groot said:

The man can't even bind his spells to a keybind and he's pretending like it's player skill.

the virgin keybinder vs the chad right click enthusiast

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You're complaining about pretty much every pvp spell BL uses. Now you want to nerf two spells to the point where they're absolutely useless. It's clear you're not looking for balance, especially considering this thread was made mere moments after losing yet another battle to BL. Instead of reconsidering your strategy and playstyle, you want to change the entire game.


The greater pattern here is that this debate happens before and after every priest change. If an enemy uses it and you can't use it, people will complain about it. No major rebalance will change that. People won't be happy with it until it's a single god that everyone has to use.

 

 

The only nerf I could agree to is for scorn. Instead of completely changing how it works, the numbers should be tweaked. Like heal less, healer fewer people etc

 

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If you read my post, it's literally
"nerf lof and scorn cast time equally so fights aren't hinged primarily on "who has more aoe heals""


but i guess i'll give you the tl;dr since you missed the mark. 

As it is now, the only fight where the team with more AoE heals lost was the one in local of your capital, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I realize he was probably talking about the OP, not my post.

Edited by Groot
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While this thread most likely was made out of frustration I see no reason why we can't have an actual discussion about the merits of each priest. There are some good points made about the BL being a jack of all trade priest but surpassing other priests in their own area of expertise.

 

Someone mentioned somewhere an idea about giving the BL another priest. Why not give them three? Why can't they have their own version of each priest? or why not condense all of the WL priests into one?

 

BL has a distinct advantage of cohesion. All of their stuff works so well together. You don't have to make any hard choices about what you want to do with your character. You go priest and make sure there are still people left that can craft.

WL has to make hard choices. Do I go Fo because we need more healing? Mag because we need damage? We just lost our main vyn priest so maybe I should do that to help with enchants. On top of those choices we still need to make sure there is people left behind to craft. Our player base is split into 4 different choices, three of which are extremely limiting. On top of all of that then there is a whole nother kingdom that splits the population even more.

 

You can't deny how big of an advantage that your priest is the enchanter/pvper/healer all in one.

 

I don't think the spells need nerfed. Maybe scorn a little bit if it does indeed heal more than LoF, they should be the same or LoF should heal more since it doesn't do the little bit of dmg that scorn does.

I do think you guys should have to choose if you want to be the dmg dealer in pvp, the healer or the item enchanter. 

 

or

 

I think we need to combine the WL kingdoms and/or priests to be similar.

 

But with all of this said, I don't think this is the main reason we have been losing fights. It is a major contributing factor. We are more inexperienced, we haven't been playing together as long as you guys and we have made a lot of tactical mistakes as we learn.

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I do think you guys should have to choose if you want to be the dmg dealer in pvp, the healer or the item enchanter. 

 

I actually think this is a pretty cool idea to split religion into paths or focuses. It would be neat to remain Libila but at like maybe 50 faith you pick between two paths of higher damage output with spells or stronger passive (enchanting/healing) spells. 

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That would be a cool way to keep libila unique instead of just copying the same thing for both sides

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Simple suggestion

Add limitations to Scorn and Light of Fo to reduce their effectiveness in large battles.

 

Complex suggestion

Implement the simple suggestion and...

Add a simplistic magic system for followers:

At 30 Faith, follower's may choose one Dedication spell from a list of three. Additionally, all followers gain access to Tangleweave but it costs their full 30 favor pool. Followers cannot gain favor from gems or sacrificing, it must accumulate naturally. The cast chance of spells is based on follower's Soul Depth, not Channeling.

Fo

  1. Oakskin - Reduced effectiveness version of Oakshell
  2. Wink - Charm animal spell that only works for low CR creatures such as for fast horse tames.
  3. Soothe - A cure spell with reduced effectiveness. Perhaps it heals a flat amount of health regardless of wound size or type.

Magranon

  1. Fiery Whip - Short range single target burn spell
  2. Reckless Advance - Similar to frantic charge
  3. Meteoric Strike - 3x3 AoE that deals moderate damage to buildings and minimal damage to enemies.

Libila

  1. Sap - Reduced range Drain Health
  2. Unyielding Gaze - Reduced effectiveness Truehit
  3. Dark Awakening - Rebirth that only works for low CR creatures

Vynora

  1. Windrun - Reduced effectiveness Excel
  2. Icicle - Single target slow similar to Shard of Ice
  3. Tremors - Small AoE stun (low stun time)

 

Just some food for thought. I am not a magic expert but it would be nice for crafters to have a limited yet diverse path other than the passives that come with being a follower. I think this would require a long cooldown to change dedications, such as 30 days.

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I posted this on the thread about Fo/Libila balance but also posting it here:

 

Simple suggestion

Add limitations to Scorn and Light of Fo to reduce their effectiveness in large battles.

 

Complex suggestion

Implement the simple suggestion and...

Add a simplistic magic system for followers:

At 30 Faith, follower's may choose one Dedication spell from a list of three. Additionally, all followers gain access to Tangleweave but it costs their full 30 favor pool. Followers cannot gain favor from gems or sacrificing, it must accumulate naturally. The cast chance of spells is based on follower's Soul Depth, not Channeling.

Fo

  1. Oakskin - Reduced effectiveness version of Oakshell
  2. Wink - Charm animal spell that only works for low CR creatures such as for fast horse tames.
  3. Soothe - A cure spell with reduced effectiveness. Perhaps it heals a flat amount of health regardless of wound size or type.

Magranon

  1. Fiery Whip - Short range single target burn spell
  2. Reckless Advance - Similar to frantic charge
  3. Meteoric Strike - 3x3 AoE that deals moderate damage to buildings and minimal damage to enemies.

Libila

  1. Sap - Reduced range Drain Health
  2. Unyielding Gaze - Reduced effectiveness Truehit
  3. Dark Awakening - Rebirth that only works for low CR creatures

Vynora

  1. Windrun - Reduced effectiveness Excel
  2. Icicle - Single target slow similar to Shard of Ice
  3. Tremors - Small AoE stun (low stun time)

 

Just some food for thought. I am not a magic expert but it would be nice for crafters to have a limited yet diverse path other than the passives that come with being a follower. I think this would require a long cooldown to change dedications, such as 30 days.

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see the problem becomes "are we suggesting real suggestions that will take 2-3 years to implement" or "are we suggesting things the devs can do right now in this moment" because you have to realize that at the current pace of work the devs take literally weeks to even do number adjustments

LoF, i do unironically think after looking at the code is underpowered. If I wanted a 'in this moment tweak', i'd change the spells to work like this:

LoF heals 5 wounds and begins with a healing pool of 20. Each wound can only use up to 25% of the total healing pool. Every 25 cast power, LoF heals an additional person. Every 1 point of power should add .4% total healing, causing the 100 power to be healing  5 wounds per player on 5 different players and a pool of healing of 60% each, meaning up to 5 wounds of 12 damage each. 

Scorn begins by damaging two enemy players, and damages an additional player for every 30 cast power. Scorn heals 3 wounds per player and begins with a healing pool of 15. Each wound can only use up to 33% of the total healing pool. Scorn will only heal as many allies as it damages in players (2 to begin with, 5 to max with). Every 1 point of power adds .6% total healing. Causing a 100 power to damage 5 enemies, heal 5 allies and those allies will heal 3 wounds for 25 damage each.

Additionally: One of two things: Once Scorn or Light of Fo is cast, a massive sigil is placed on the ground (mark of fo/libila), which prevents any future casting of that spell in the region for 20 minutes. This should be fairly large (10x10 or so), and makes it visible and obvious. Alternatively, if LoF/Scorn heal anyone, their healing resistance is capped out regardless of the actual heal amount.

The above suggestion is mostly to turn Scorn/LoF from a constant "battery" of health people tap into to heal multiple times in a fight, and more of a single time cast to try and turn the tides of battle- both sides know they have this available, the number of priests that can cast this spell wont matter (as there will be a large cooldown either ways to heal the same player). Also an attempt to retain Scorn being slightly better in larger groups (although i suspect the wound limit will make it garbage later game when people take smaller wounds but idk lol) while keeping LoF as being better in small skirmishes.

Now, theres a dozen better ways to implement this, but this feels like the way to do it that's mostly just numbers tweaking.

Edited by RainRain

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20 hours ago, Carmichael said:

Scorn of Libila & Light of Fo: need to be severely toned down or reworked. If you can get a full heal on an entire group with that spell because wounds are stacking, there's obviously something wrong there.

1. Scorn heals 30 up to 60 damage PER WOUND. PLUS AoE damage. This spell scales as well.

2. Light of Fo heals up to 5 to 30 damage PER WOUND. NO AoE damage. Does not scale.

 

Scorn is more powerful than Lof if it hits many targets cant dispute that, but Fo and Mag get many other spells while that's the only heal lib gets so you cant compare scorn to lof directly and say they need to be equal. Make scorn the same as Lof sure then give Lib 15% damage bonus\cure light\refresh i would be fine with that.

 

This is another blame post, if the BL group had been WL and both the groups that lost had been BL, you would have still lost and instead be here complaining about mag damage or cure light spam.

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We are looking into the depot spawning code, does battle camps seem to have the same issue?

 

 

We will be looking to tweak the battle camps based on the feedback here, let me know how you feel about the following.

 

After capture battle camps will display location information like before in the village info section where they are listed.

Pendulum range restored to former distance.

Increase the time between battle camp hota by 1 more day to make it not feel like an every day thing and give people more of a break between them.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Gianna said:

I posted this on the thread about Fo/Libila balance but also posting it here:

 

Simple suggestion

Add limitations to Scorn and Light of Fo to reduce their effectiveness in large battles.

 

Complex suggestion

Implement the simple suggestion and...

Add a simplistic magic system for followers:

At 30 Faith, follower's may choose one Dedication spell from a list of three. Additionally, all followers gain access to Tangleweave but it costs their full 30 favor pool. Followers cannot gain favor from gems or sacrificing, it must accumulate naturally. The cast chance of spells is based on follower's Soul Depth, not Channeling.

Fo

  1. Oakskin - Reduced effectiveness version of Oakshell
  2. Wink - Charm animal spell that only works for low CR creatures such as for fast horse tames.
  3. Soothe - A cure spell with reduced effectiveness. Perhaps it heals a flat amount of health regardless of wound size or type.

Magranon

  1. Fiery Whip - Short range single target burn spell
  2. Reckless Advance - Similar to frantic charge
  3. Meteoric Strike - 3x3 AoE that deals moderate damage to buildings and minimal damage to enemies.

Libila

  1. Sap - Reduced range Drain Health
  2. Unyielding Gaze - Reduced effectiveness Truehit
  3. Dark Awakening - Rebirth that only works for low CR creatures

Vynora

  1. Windrun - Reduced effectiveness Excel
  2. Icicle - Single target slow similar to Shard of Ice
  3. Tremors - Small AoE stun (low stun time)

 

Just some food for thought. I am not a magic expert but it would be nice for crafters to have a limited yet diverse path other than the passives that come with being a follower. I think this would require a long cooldown to change dedications, such as 30 days.

Would be an interesting idea to try on defiance to even out priests and non priests, ill pass it on for consideration. How does everyone else feel about this?

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30 minutes ago, Threap said:

 

Scorn is more powerful than Lof if it hits many targets cant dispute that, but Fo and Mag get many other spells while that's the only heal lib gets so you cant compare scorn to lof directly and say they need to be equal. Make scorn the same as Lof sure then give Lib 15% damage bonus\cure light\refresh i would be fine with that.

 

This is another blame post, if the BL group had been WL and both the groups that lost had been BL, you would have still lost and instead be here complaining about mag damage or cure light spam.

The whole point of this thread to get people talking. Realistically to keep up with healing, you NEED 2 Fo's for 1 Libila priest. That's just for healing. It's not necessarily a blame post either. 10/10 times someone will use drain health on a horse to engage over bows. It's a 3 second timer with a almost 15 tile distance vs short bow slightly timer that beats it out every time. You tell me if you can react within that 3 seconds or not.

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5 minutes ago, Darklords said:

Would be an interesting idea to try on defiance to even out priests and non priests, ill pass it on for consideration. How does everyone else feel about this?

 

If the idea is to blur the lines between Priests and Non-priests, perhaps it should be combined with this suggestion from Sindusk:
 

On 10/19/2020 at 8:39 PM, Sindusk said:
  1. Allow priests to pick up a single profession on Defiance. Magranon can smith, Vynora can be a carpenter, Fo can do tailoring, and Libila can do a restricted version of all 3. Libila would be allowed to do weapon smithing, armour smithing (chain/plate/shield), leatherworking, fletching, and bowyery. This covers all combat-related subskills from those professions. This limits them out of blacksmithing, jewelry smithing, cloth tailoring, ship building, fine carpentry, and toy making. Those would need to be done by non-priests for the HOTS kingdom.
    • The current state of Defiance has most priests doing menial tasks like gathering, making bricks/mortar/planks, and similar. They cannot assist in re-gearing the kingdom for combat. This change allows them to contribute to becoming combat-ready in a meaningful way

 

 

 

Also, quite a bit of consideration would need to go into balancing the follower spells due to the number of potential casters. For example in my opinion the Tremors suggestion for Vynora ("Small AoE stun") sounds like it would be too powerful.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Darklords said:

We are looking into the depot spawning code, does battle camps seem to have the same issue?

 

 

We will be looking to tweak the battle camps based on the feedback here, let me know how you feel about the following.

 

After capture battle camps will display location information like before in the village info section where they are listed.

Pendulum range restored to former distance.

Increase the time between battle camp hota by 1 more day to make it not feel like an every day thing and give people more of a break between them.

 

 

 

Appreciate your continued dedication to improving PvP. I am in favor of these HotA changes.

 

Also, on my suggestion, I am not married to the Dedication spells I suggested... they are simply some I came up with but may need balancing or fresh ideas. Given the reality of workload and part-time developers, it may be more feasible to simply replicate existing spells and tamper with the numbers to make them less effective as follower dedications.

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Seriously you want non priest pvpers to grind soul depth?

 

No thanks. Still a great suggestion and I'm all for evening the field between priests and non-priests but do it by taking away things or slightly adjusting numbers. More will make everything messier and less enjoyable.

Edited by Joemog

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FYI, Darklords is discussing this to some extent in the PvP changes thread. May be worth adding your own thoughts there as I am not sure this forum topic gets reviewed as often.

 

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Merged suggestion into PvP discussions to keep it all in one place

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8 hours ago, Gianna said:

I posted this on the thread about Fo/Libila balance but also posting it here:

 

Simple suggestion

Add limitations to Scorn and Light of Fo to reduce their effectiveness in large battles.

 

Complex suggestion

Implement the simple suggestion and...

Add a simplistic magic system for followers:

At 30 Faith, follower's may choose one Dedication spell from a list of three. Additionally, all followers gain access to Tangleweave but it costs their full 30 favor pool. Followers cannot gain favor from gems or sacrificing, it must accumulate naturally. The cast chance of spells is based on follower's Soul Depth, not Channeling.

Fo

  1. Oakskin - Reduced effectiveness version of Oakshell
  2. Wink - Charm animal spell that only works for low CR creatures such as for fast horse tames.
  3. Soothe - A cure spell with reduced effectiveness. Perhaps it heals a flat amount of health regardless of wound size or type.

Magranon

  1. Fiery Whip - Short range single target burn spell
  2. Reckless Advance - Similar to frantic charge
  3. Meteoric Strike - 3x3 AoE that deals moderate damage to buildings and minimal damage to enemies.

Libila

  1. Sap - Reduced range Drain Health
  2. Unyielding Gaze - Reduced effectiveness Truehit
  3. Dark Awakening - Rebirth that only works for low CR creatures

Vynora

  1. Windrun - Reduced effectiveness Excel
  2. Icicle - Single target slow similar to Shard of Ice
  3. Tremors - Small AoE stun (low stun time)

 

Just some food for thought. I am not a magic expert but it would be nice for crafters to have a limited yet diverse path other than the passives that come with being a follower. I think this would require a long cooldown to change dedications, such as 30 days.

 

I think maybe instead of it scaling with SD just give it a once a day casting similar to meditation abilities. Maybe instead of different god we could add these to meditation? I know we have been looking at adding things to meditation to make it less useless. Maybe at lvl4 all paths get access to a once a day tangleweave and then add each of these spell to the different levels too? Knowledge = vyn, hate = lib, power = mag, love = fo. Insanity can just go ###### itself.

 

I don't know about that AoE stun, that is a pretty powerful thing.

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On 11/2/2020 at 9:31 PM, Darklords said:

Would be an interesting idea to try on defiance to even out priests and non priests, ill pass it on for consideration. How does everyone else feel about this?

 

I find the idea of giving new spells to 30 faith no-priest really awesome. But what if... (just gonna throw this one out there) we just remove the disadvantages for priests on defiance. Meaning everyone can priest up without losing crafting / imping / etc abilities. 

 

For current main crafters, it'll even the battle field.

For current main priests, they'll enjoy the game more by being able to craft again.

Plus it's an easy implementation/fix!

 

The 'pve' / specialization aspect will be kept anyhow because it takes a very long road to get to high channeling skill. So for example, enchanters will still only be those with high 60/70+ channeling skill. Basicly like how crafters are having different specialization but still being able to do and choose all.

Edited by Oneechan

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5 minutes ago, Oneechan said:

 

I find the idea of giving new spells to 30 faith no-priest really awesome. But what if... (just gonna throw this one out there) we just remove the disadvantages for priests on defiance. Meaning everyone can priest up without losing crafting / imping / etc abilities. 

 

For current main crafters, it'll even the battle field.

For current main priests, they'll enjoy the game more by being able to craft again.

Plus it's an easy implementation/fix!

 

The 'pve' / specialization aspect will be kept anyhow because it takes a very long road to get to high channeling skill. 

This will absolutely make the game more boring and absolutely murder the last pieces of identity and specialization characters have after meditaiton changes. Big -1 to any of these crazy suggestions, just slightly nerf some of the most powerful spells from all deities.

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8 minutes ago, Joemog said:

This will absolutely make the game more boring and absolutely murder the last pieces of identity and specialization characters have after meditaiton changes. Big -1 to any of these crazy suggestions, just slightly nerf some of the most powerful spells from all deities.

 

My opinion on this is that identity should be made through effort put in skills. Not by restrictions and limitations.

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If there are no priest negatives then the entry to pvp just becomes a 70 faith priest. One of the things I liked most about def was the low entry to be able to PvP 'successfully'.

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