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i dont understand how people think that giving priest access to everyone will make anything better

the spells are already falling apart balance-wise because you have 5 people out of 10 being able to scorn/lof

you think it'll be any better if literally anyone you dont actively focus at a time is able to fling spells?



i fully agree with posteh about it, it's extremely hard to balance one god vs the variability of 3 gods because you run into a lot of issues
1. breadth
if the breadth of the single god isn't comparable to the breadth of 3 gods, then the entire faith/kingdom will be extremely weak; they already suffer to lack of entire options such as nimble for bow, coc for actually decent grinding tools instead of botd, and any singletarget healing
2. density
the spells you do give these priests now also need to be waged against the fact that you wont just have a 'few' priests able to cast it- EVERY priest will be able to. WL has to divide their priests across 3 gods which makes them specialize; take out the mag priests and they do less damage, take out the fos and they cant heal, take out vyns and nobody notices cuz lol pvp vyns cute. for libila? you take out anyone and every other priest can still cast all the spells they could cast

balancing these issues is extremely difficult and considering how hard it is for the devs to balance things as simple as how basic weapons and combat should work, i don't think it's reasonable to expect them to balance 1 god into 3- so the easiest way to balance it is by splitting the burden across two gods: one more supportive and enchant natured, the other more offensive and damage natured, just like the realistic split between the two main pvp priests: fo and mag.

Edited by Bakhita
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26 minutes ago, RainRain said:

i dont understand how people think that giving priest access to everyone will make anything better

 

Well next to the inbalance from spells of libila against the split up WL Gods specialization. There's still the fact that a battle priest has way higher chance to outperform a battle crafter in pvp. Therefore a wild suggestion of.. an alternative route to balance the field by giving everyone the ability to priest without restriction. Instead of Gianna's suggestion of basicly giving crafters with 30 faith access to a weaker version to spells. Which i also find a neat and awesome solution. But i think the essence is the same. 

Edited by Oneechan

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Look at any other game where if you have perks you also have downsides. On defiance the choice to be a priest needs to have combat downsides.

Make it everyone can priest and craft, but instead, being a priest has some combat downsides so that it's not beneficial for literally everyone to be a priest.

 

Right now when it comes to combat there is no reason to not be a priest.

Edited by warrior
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Scorn from 30-60 per wound to 15-30 per wound.

Light of Fo from 5-35 per wound to 5-20 per wound.

 

All I want to see.

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Just now, Sindusk said:

Scorn from 30-60 per wound to 15-30 per wound.

Light of Fo from 5-35 per wound to 5-20 per wound.

 

All I want to see.

This, lower the heals. So people from 40 health don't get full healed everytime.

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6 hours ago, Sindusk said:

Scorn from 30-60 per wound to 15-30 per wound.

Light of Fo from 5-35 per wound to 5-20 per wound.

 

All I want to see.

This + slightly nerf single targets spells and remove magranon res stone bonus

 

A free res stone bonus really has no place on defiance with res stones and there are a ton of mags which have always been a solid choice.

 

Then we got all priests slightly turned down

Edited by Joemog

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5 hours ago, Carmichael said:

I would also remove the dmg that scorn does

10xnci.jpg

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On 11/4/2020 at 3:33 PM, RainRain said:

they already suffer to lack of entire options such as nimble for bow, coc for actually decent grinding tools instead of botd, and any singletarget healing

enchants is HARDLY a handicap when you have people that just make a WL priest alt.

 

So sick of the poor BL has to balance against 3 gods argument. Its just tired and boring at this point

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Reduce drain health distance to like 3 tiles like common look at this lmfao

 

 

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3 hours ago, platinumteef said:

gravestones are ######

Whats the main issues you have with them?

 

As far as spells go we will be doing a dedicated thread with proposed changes and discussion for spell changes soon.

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Critical spell changes that simply need to happen:

  • Scorn of Libila and Light of Fo healing reduced by roughly half. Scorn currently heals 90-180% of your health, and Light of Fo heals 25-175% of your health. I'd like to see these changed to 45-90% of health for Scorn and 25-100% of health for Light of Fo. The reason for this is because the current values are so outrageously high that even with 50% healing resistance (10 minutes of debuff), you can still get pretty much completely healed by one of these spells. Beyond that, when compared to spells like Cure Light, Focused Will, and Drain Health, you heal more health per second of your channel with LoF or Scorn than you do with the actual single target healing spells... on a single target.
    • Cure Light & Focused Will: 20% maximum healing, 10 second cast time. 2% health per second. Limited to one wound.
    • Drain Health: 6% maximum healing, 3 second cast time. 2% health per second. Limited to one wound.
    • Scorn of Libila: 180% maximum healing, 15 second cast time. 12% health per second. Heals up to 3 separate wounds.
    • Light of Fo: 175% maximum healing, 15 second cast time. 11.6% health per second channeled. Heals up to 5 separate wounds.
    • All of these values are assuming the spells hit a single target. Instead, while Scorn and Light of Fo are healing 5x more per second channeled, they also apply to multiple targets. Completely out of balance.
  • Single target healing spells need to be re-enabled while on a vehicle. I still cannot fathom why this was changed in the past. It's just a stupid, counter-QoL mechanic that makes single target healing spells frustrating to use in their current state.

It's pretty much unanimous that Light of Fo and Scorn need to be toned down. I doubt anyone will disagree with the proposals above. Now onto more controversial spell changes that I think would assist in the current state of balance and provide more tactical options in combat.

  • Grant Focused Will to Libila. Reduce the cast time of Focused Will, Cure Light, and Cure Medium by about half (to 5-6 seconds). Give Libila the single target healing spell that she's lacking so it can be used in combat. Increase the usability of single-target healing spells in combat by making them fast enough to be used on a target without forcing them to stand still for an awkward 10 seconds. Their potency is already pretty low due to the fact these spells can only heal a single wound. As it stands, Focused Will and Cure Light are only used to heal outside of combat. Libila needs Focused Will because the only way they can heal their horses right now is to have them tamed and drop an awkward Scorn of Libila.
  • Increase cast time of single-target damage spells (Rotting Gut, Fireheart, and Shard of Ice) to 8-10 seconds. It's too easy to get these off right now. They're difficult to Tangleweave since you have to start the Tangleweave within 3 seconds of the caster starting their channel. I believe it's ideal to keep these spells potent in terms of damage, but reduce their use cases so they're only utilized when the situation calls for it (someone running away, initiating on a horse, etc.)
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9 minutes ago, Darklords said:

Whats the main issues you have with them?

 

As far as spells go we will be doing a dedicated thread with proposed changes and discussion for spell changes soon.

 

People are used to the old ways of Chaos/Epic of just spamming take keybinds to grab gear regardless if they win or lose a fight. I love gravestones. They reward the actual winners, and they give time for the opposition to come back and fight again if the enemy has to loot several gravestones which can take several minutes. 

 

In regards to changing spells I think it'd help to have a side-by-side data table of what's being changed. Ie. when you're dying drain health % max and cast, I don't really know what the before is compared to the proposed. 

Edited by Postes
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7 minutes ago, Sindusk said:

Critical spell changes that simply need to happen:

  • Scorn of Libila and Light of Fo healing reduced by roughly half. Scorn currently heals 90-180% of your health, and Light of Fo heals 25-175% of your health. I'd like to see these changed to 45-90% of health for Scorn and 25-100% of health for Light of Fo. The reason for this is because the current values are so outrageously high that even with 50% healing resistance (10 minutes of debuff), you can still get pretty much completely healed by one of these spells. Beyond that, when compared to spells like Cure Light, Focused Will, and Drain Health, you heal more health per second of your channel with LoF or Scorn than you do with the actual single target healing spells... on a single target.
    • Cure Light & Focused Will: 20% maximum healing, 10 second cast time. 2% health per second. Limited to one wound.
    • Drain Health: 6% maximum healing, 3 second cast time. 2% health per second. Limited to one wound.
    • Scorn of Libila: 180% maximum healing, 15 second cast time. 12% health per second. Heals up to 3 separate wounds.
    • Light of Fo: 175% maximum healing, 15 second cast time. 11.6% health per second channeled. Heals up to 5 separate wounds.
    • All of these values are assuming the spells hit a single target. Instead, while Scorn and Light of Fo are healing 5x more per second channeled, they also apply to multiple targets. Completely out of balance.
  • Single target healing spells need to be re-enabled while on a vehicle. I still cannot fathom why this was changed in the past. It's just a stupid, counter-QoL mechanic that makes single target healing spells frustrating to use in their current state.

It's pretty much unanimous that Light of Fo and Scorn need to be toned down. I doubt anyone will disagree with the proposals above. Now onto more controversial spell changes that I think would assist in the current state of balance and provide more tactical options in combat.

  • Grant Focused Will to Libila. Reduce the cast time of Focused Will, Cure Light, and Cure Medium by about half (to 5-6 seconds). Give Libila the single target healing spell that she's lacking so it can be used in combat. Increase the usability of single-target healing spells in combat by making them fast enough to be used on a target without forcing them to stand still for an awkward 10 seconds. Their potency is already pretty low due to the fact these spells can only heal a single wound. As it stands, Focused Will and Cure Light are only used to heal outside of combat. Libila needs Focused Will because the only way they can heal their horses right now is to have them tamed and drop an awkward Scorn of Libila.
  • Increase cast time of single-target damage spells (Rotting Gut, Fireheart, and Shard of Ice) to 8-10 seconds. It's too easy to get these off right now. They're difficult to Tangleweave since you have to start the Tangleweave within 3 seconds of the caster starting their channel. I believe it's ideal to keep these spells potent in terms of damage, but reduce their use cases so they're only utilized when the situation calls for it (someone running away, initiating on a horse, etc.)

 

I agree with that AoE healing spells could use an overhaul, not gonna comment on your numbers since I haven't tested them rigorously, though.

 

What I don't see is why Lib would need focused will if she has drain health? Just buff drain health a bit so it actually does something (I haven't seen it heal much more than 3-4 dmg on Defiance, which frankly is less than mycelium). People crying about nerfing drain health are silly, the main reason people cast it in combat these days is just to get a quick hurting status off, not actually to heal themselves. Which isn't all that much considering you can do the same more effectively through a number of different means too (e.g. for horses, archery,or other single target damage spells etc). Pretty much the only thing drain health has going for it is it's short cast timer.

 

Just as a note to your suggestion of single-target spells needing longer timers: rotting gut is already 10 seconds. Worm brains is 15 seconds. It's only the WL gods that have <10sec damage spells. Doesn't stop us from casting them often enough anyway. So while I appreciate the idea I don't think this would change much at all. Not that I have a better idea apart from just reducing the damage single target spells do in general (and then perhaps nerfing resistance a bit).

 

Oh, also I disagree with single-target healing on vehicles, since it'd be too easy to keep a captain healed.

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5 minutes ago, Monokles said:

Oh, also I disagree with single-target healing on vehicles, since it'd be too easy to keep a captain healed.

 

That is a problem, but should not be solved via making the spells not work unless you go through a clunky UI and find an individual wound and heal it. Instead, it should be solved by preventing multiple people from spamming single target heals on a target. The way it was "fixed" was simply counter to QoL. It doesn't actually solve the underlying problem since, even a few weeks ago, we kept a captain alive through spamming single target heals on them via the window.

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27 minutes ago, Darklords said:

Whats the main issues you have with them?

 

As far as spells go we will be doing a dedicated thread with proposed changes and discussion for spell changes soon.

Gravestones are awesome for the reasons Posteh mentioned as well as the added decision-making in the game. There are times when after a kill deep in enemy territory and with a wounded horse, you have to decide whether it is even worth it to try and take the time to loot or simply retreat.

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Just make sure priests are actually nerfed and not buffed

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57 minutes ago, Postes said:

 

they give time for the opposition to come back and fight again if the enemy has to loot several gravestones which can take several minutes. 

 

 

This especially. Last night's fight probably wouldn't have lasted half as long if the winners of the initial skirmish were able to just loot up and go home. But because we had to loot both friendly and enemy gravestones, JK had plenty of time to gather up and attack again, with the added incentive of regaining their own lost gear.

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34 minutes ago, Sindusk said:

Critical spell changes that simply need to happen:

  • Scorn of Libila and Light of Fo healing reduced by roughly half. Scorn currently heals 90-180% of your health, and Light of Fo heals 25-175% of your health. I'd like to see these changed to 45-90% of health for Scorn and 25-100% of health for Light of Fo. The reason for this is because the current values are so outrageously high that even with 50% healing resistance (10 minutes of debuff), you can still get pretty much completely healed by one of these spells. Beyond that, when compared to spells like Cure Light, Focused Will, and Drain Health, you heal more health per second of your channel with LoF or Scorn than you do with the actual single target healing spells... on a single target.
    • Cure Light & Focused Will: 20% maximum healing, 10 second cast time. 2% health per second. Limited to one wound.
    • Drain Health: 6% maximum healing, 3 second cast time. 2% health per second. Limited to one wound.
    • Scorn of Libila: 180% maximum healing, 15 second cast time. 12% health per second. Heals up to 3 separate wounds.
    • Light of Fo: 175% maximum healing, 15 second cast time. 11.6% health per second channeled. Heals up to 5 separate wounds.
    • All of these values are assuming the spells hit a single target. Instead, while Scorn and Light of Fo are healing 5x more per second channeled, they also apply to multiple targets. Completely out of balance.

 

By that logic, cure serious is OP and 'heal' is pretty crap. If you were to introduce a new spell that worked like cure light, but healed 10% in 5 sec (ie half the values), that'd be significantly more powerful than cure light, as it has a lot more use cases with the short timer. My point is healing per second is not a meaningful balance criteria.

 

I agree the heals from AoEs should be nerfed, but single target spells and their heal per second should not be used as a reference. 

 

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1 hour ago, Darklords said:

Whats the main issues you have with them?

 

As far as spells go we will be doing a dedicated thread with proposed changes and discussion for spell changes soon.

We had a fight against MR the other day it was a hard fight. We won started looting and BL backdoored us we got maybe 1/3 of the loot. Add a loot grave stone buff were if you loot one grave stone you can loot the rest without having a timer on the rest of the grave stone around you for a few mins.

 

As for drain health the issue is the ability to give Hurting status in 3 second from 20 tiles away. That’s faster then a short bow and zero miss chance. Make it so it heals like focus will and get rid of the damage done.

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1 hour ago, Sindusk said:
  • Scorn of Libila and Light of Fo healing reduced by roughly half. Scorn currently heals 90-180% of your health, and Light of Fo heals 25-175% of your health. I'd like to see these changed to 45-90% of health for Scorn and 25-100% of health for Light of Fo. The reason for this is because the current values are so outrageously high that even with 50% healing resistance (10 minutes of debuff), you can still get pretty much completely healed by one of these spells. Beyond that, when compared to spells like Cure Light, Focused Will, and Drain Health, you heal more health per second of your channel with LoF or Scorn than you do with the actual single target healing spells... on a single target.
    • Cure Light & Focused Will: 20% maximum healing, 10 second cast time. 2% health per second. Limited to one wound.
    • Drain Health: 6% maximum healing, 3 second cast time. 2% health per second. Limited to one wound.
    • Scorn of Libila: 180% maximum healing, 15 second cast time. 12% health per second. Heals up to 3 separate wounds.
    • Light of Fo: 175% maximum healing, 15 second cast time. 11.6% health per second channeled. Heals up to 5 separate wounds.
    • All of these values are assuming the spells hit a single target. Instead, while Scorn and Light of Fo are healing 5x more per second channeled, they also apply to multiple targets. Completely out of balance.
  • Single target healing spells need to be re-enabled while on a vehicle. I still cannot fathom why this was changed in the past. It's just a stupid, counter-QoL mechanic that makes single target healing spells frustrating to use in their current state.

 

I dont think reducing the healing they do is the right way to fix it. If you just reduce the healing at some point it becomes pointless to cast them at all and it lowers the skill cap of pvp, a better way imo would be to actually lower the cast times and let the healing resistance do its job, currently nobody lives long enough for healing resistance to have any effect in large scale pvp.

 

So 

  • Fix the lower initial health pool light of FO so it is less reliant on cast power like Scorn.
  • Give Lib Focus will and Make range of focus will and cure light the same as drain health. ( I would even argue you give these to followers as well )
  • Increase the range of scorn and Lof.
  • Lower the cast times, of all healing spells.
  • Make healing resistance actually be worth something, Perhaps once you are healed for 3x your total HP. you are capped until you have no enemy in local.

This will give pvp a much more rewarding game play and raise the skill cap to pvp. Going the other way so heals are worthless will just lower the skill cap and just reward the team with the most numbers.

 

Also to further improve pvp, there were changed to combat in general a few years ago which significantly lowered the time to kill a player even on chaos where people wore drake and scale, this just promoted the zerg pvp style were focusing 1 player meant they would die in under 15 seconds, and rended block and parry almost usless in large scale pvp. this sucks in general and removed any chance of staying a live if you where zerged. 

 

 

 

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You are actually just suggesting a bunch of priest buffs? Don't feel there are enough priests in pvp, or why?

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5 minutes ago, Joemog said:

You are actually just suggesting a bunch of priest buffs? Don't feel there are enough priests in pvp, or why?

 

The priest v non priest is a different problem, this is a suggestion to fix how healing works.

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