You steal from me You will lose reputation

[Ainelan 4]

Thief: Pherikfox, from deed Disfuntcionally Funcional, server Melody, stolen items: many logs (from many small crates) and some small crates

Thief: Callinden, from deed Magaron Watch, server Defiance, stolen items: many locked bsbs (many full or half full), 2 large carts (one almost full, 1 unfinished), 1 large chest, +- 200 iron ore or lumps  

 

This topic have aim to warn other players against actions of dishonest people so they dont get robbed and their game experience isnt ruined. 

Be careful if you trade with these people.

If they decide to return stolen items it will be noted there. (So if a "sinner" have desire to remove sins from his/her tarnished soul he/she have chance.) 

 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Ainelan

[Oblivionnreaver 5,174]

can you add me to this i want to feel included

[Ainelan 4]

I am sorry, but I cant. There are bigger values, like truth for example than inclusion for all cost. Do not want from me to lie. (Nice joke by the way.)

[TheTrickster 2,283]

Hold on a sec.  "Thief" is a pretty big call unless you are a mind reader.  Where were said items? 

 

On Mel, obviously not secured.  If they were secured in one of many ways, they could not be taken.  You mention trade - were you swindled?  That is a different thing to stealing, and you can report that to a GM.  If it wasn't you prob shouldn't be discussing trading with these players if trading had nothing to do with it.

 

On Def.  Well.  I am not sure what to say beyond "player versus player".

 

Have you raised the matter with these players and sought direct resolution with them?  If not, then I would suggest that you do so, going straight to a public accusation is hardly going to make them feel like returning your stuff.

 

I understand how frustrating it is, but I would try treating them as non-jerks first and if they then demonstrate that they definitely ARE jerks, treat them accordingly.

Edited October 7, 2020 by TheTrickster

[Ainelan 4]

1) the small crates were on a  deed so he only could take them because he have permissions for that deed

2) yes, in both cases, in second case  we had an  agreement that I leave her deed with all my stuff but she broke that agreement 

 

I mention trade so others people are careful with trading with.them. From a thief isnt so far way to a swindler. 

[Ainelan 4]

Calling someone thief if he/she steals something is only calling black color black color.

[Ainelan 4]

It is difference between PvP and griefing. The PvP there is predominatly realm vs realm vs realm. So stealing from member of the same kingdom is not PvP imho. 

[Radircs 76]

Did Magranons Watch not kick you and give you a lot of time to move your stuff befor setting you on KOS and you just don't do it?`At lest this is the version I have herd at lest and giving the impression I got from you so fare I am more on bord on belive them.

[Caduryn 129]

CANT steal on PvE Servers....

[TheTrickster 2,283]

 

3 hours ago, Ainelan said:

1) the small crates were on a  deed so he only could take them because he have permissions for that deed

2) yes, in both cases, in second case  we had an  agreement that I leave her deed with all my stuff but she broke that agreement 

 

I mention trade so others people are careful with trading with.them. From a thief isnt so far way to a swindler. 

 

1) So, he had permission.  That isn't theft.  It could be misappropriation, but either way it isn't trade.  You specifically invoked trade, which means you aren't warning people about the particular behaviour but seeking some kind of pay back.

2) If you had an agreement and she welched, then that is closer to trade. Not quite, but close enough.  If you had an agreement, lodge a ticket.  You will have logs confirming the agreement.  If the timeframe is an issue, an approach to set an agreed time would perhaps help you get your stuff.  "Stolen" is not the term in any case.  Sorry, but theft is a very specific crime and precision is important.  If the stuff has not been moved or used, it has not been stolen.  Even if it has been moved, if it is only moving it from spot a to spot b for some kind of convenience or setting-in-order it has not been stolen.  

 

 

[Ainelan 4]

ad Radircs: yes she have right kick from her village whoever she want, she have NO right to deny me access to my stuff, if there was good will on her side she could: a) give me temporary access so I can take my stuff or b) put my stuff outside her deed so I can pick them up, so it is a  case of greediness and theft.  PS: If they give me enough time I would move my stuff away and problem would be solved for both sides.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Ainelan

[Ainelan 4]

ad Caduryn: theft is taking an item (or items) which is not yours, he took item which wasnt his, so he stole it, i expect some common decency from people who have access to same deed 

[Amata 400]

5 hours ago, Ainelan said:

Thief: Pherikfox, from deed Disfuntcionally Funcional, server Melody, stolen items: many logs (from many small crates) and some small crates

Thief: Callinden, from deed Magaron Watch, server Defiance, stolen items: many locked bsbs (many full or half full), 2 large carts (one almost full, 1 unfinished), 1 large chest, +- 200 iron ore or lumps  

 

This topic have aim to warn other players against actions of dishonest people so they dont get robbed and their game experience isnt ruined. 

Be careful if you trade with these people.

If they decide to return stolen items it will be noted there. (So if a "sinner" have desire to remove sins from his/her tarnished soul he/she have chance.) 

 

 

Woah. Slow down, please. 
When I was new to Wurm, I too had some tools and items "talk a walk" without my consent. I also came to the forums to talk it out & better understand the way that the Wurm community  approaches and handles these situations. Let me please share some of what I learned with you ....

1. "Theft" is a specific thing
   in Wurm, there is a very specific definition for "theft" / "stealing." That is, going to a deed that is not yours and that you do not have permissions, removing items from that deed without the owner's consent with no intention of providing compensation or return of items. If ANY of these aspects is not true, or does not apply, then the act is not theft / stealing. 
    
2. Anti-Theft Game Mechanics
   To protect players against random acts of thievery, Wurm has a full set of game mechanics to employ. If ANY of these game mechanics have NOT been used, leading to the "liberation" of items, this is not an example of stealing - it is an example of owner negligence. If a player chooses to forego one or more of the available anti-theft game mechanics, then the player is considered to have consented to the risk. 
    
3. PVP Servers
   I don't have personal experience on the Wurm pvp servers - and I believe that there are some different rules or mechanics depending on which pvp island you are on. That having been said - I think #1 and #2 apply, but with the obvious caveat that, in pvp, stealing is allowed. If you are on a pvp server and you feel that agreements have been broken or items moved without your consent within your own faction/kingdom/alliance, then you should first discuss the matter within your own faction/kingdom/alliance to reach resolution. Otherwise, it is player versus player - tacit consent for these risks is assumed by the player upon entering a pvp island.
    
4. PVE Servers
   As a game mechanic, stealing is not allowed on pve servers. As a matter of game mechanics, stealing is not allowed on pve servers.  Other ways to read this information include: "stealing mechanics are disabled on pve servers," "attempts to use the steal action on pve servers will result in a warning message and the action will be cancelled,"or "the game mechanic 'steal' will not work when used on a pve server." This means that, if you are on a pve server, as a literal matter in terms of game play, the item or object literally could not have been "stolen." Because of this fact, actual incidents of pure theft / stealing on pve servers is basically zero. In Wurm pve, there is always an extra or complicating factor involved in the movement of items or objects from "mine" to "yours." The game mechanics literally do not support any straight forward type of theft in pve Wurm. 

 

That is the basic run down. 

More information is under the thing:

Spoiler

 

Anti-Theft Mechanics: or,  Before You Call Theft, Double Check This List

 

are you on a PVP Island? 

Stealing is allowed / enabled in the PVP environment.
Remember that "Nested is Best" - place an item inside a locked container, inside a locked container, inside a locked building, inside a locked fence, on a locked deed... etc.
Please consider the following available game mechanics to better secure your belongings against other pvp Wurmians in the future.
 

did you have any sort of agreement or arrangement or trade deal in progress with the other player? 

a trade or agreed transaction gone wrong is not theft - but it might be a swindle! - use /support in-game to report unjust trade practices
 

was the other player a citizen of the homestead, deed, alliance, kingdom, or on your friends list? (ie. NOT a random stranger or unknown)

this is not theft per game mechanics, it is simply a jerk move - please make all possible attempts to resolve by POLITELY discussing directly with the other player

 

was the item or object on deed?

were deed permissions properly set to protect the item or object from removal?

 

was the item or object secured to the ground (or "planted")?

to remain secured to the ground, items and objects must remain QL 10+ .... when was the last time the item or object was repaired & 10+ QL verified?
remember that damage / decay can make an item that LOOKS 10+ QL actually fall below the minimum effective quality, and become unsecured automatically
 

if the item or object was in a container... was the container locked?

on pve islands, even a lock of poor quality will effectively make any container impenetrable to other players unless specified in perms

for extra protection - was the container secured / planted on the ground?
 

was the item or object inside a completed building / structure? 

buildings do not provide options for perms while incomplete

were the building perms properly set to protect interior items and objects from removal?

for extra protection - were there locks on ALL the building's points of entrance? 

were the building's gate & door locks perms properly set?
 

was the item or object inside a completed fenced area?

was the fence gate locked? 

were the gate lock perms properly set? 

 

were most of the surrounding structures (fences, buildings, containers, vehicles etc) at or above 60+ damage / decay? **

structures in Wurm gain a "run down" appearance at 60+ damage, usually from regular ol' decay 

most Wurmians will consider the state of surrounding structures before & while "treasure hunting"

if a homestead is found to mostly have 60+ damage on the structures, Wurmians will assume the homestead is abandoned unless otherwise prominently noted
leave fellow Wurmians notes via secured signage, village notice boards, messages left in "rename" on structures, etc

 

was the item or object left in a pile on the ground? 

a pile is not secured like items inside a container

even when left on deed, an open pile is at risk to anyone with any sort of pick-up perms

items or objects left in piles near deed borders might also be moved / pushed / pulled / placed to an off-deed location to get around some perms

 

was the item or object on your deed perimeter? 

perimeter lands are NOT considered on-deed

perimeter lands are NOT covered by deed perms

perimeter lands are public / wild lands, that happen to have an extra note upon examination that politely indicates you live nearby

it is entirely possible for a player to not even realise they are on someone's perimeter lands

also, perimeter lands are NOT on-deed or protected by deed perms

 

 

** Relic Hunters, Lost Deed Seekers, Treasure Pirates, Salvage Teams and Archaeologists exist in Wurm **

As in the real world, these intrepid explorers have an insatiable lust for discovery and uncovering "loot" - the glittery makes them grin, the lovely makes them laugh, the practical makes them, um, pleased, and the unexpected makes them.... unusually excited. 😅 Armed with this knowledge - keep your homestead or deed well-kempt, tended to, repaired, and active. Make sure animals are fed and not standing on tiles of packed dirt. Always be repairing and improving your structures. Post signs and leave messages to communicate with other Wurmians when you are "sleeping." Consider posting a "coming soon..." sign when constructing structures, to differentiate a building going up from a building coming down. Tell your immediate neighbors and Local community if you are taking a break, fall ill, going on a trip, or otherwise not going to be online for a bit. Have friends, or paid deed sitters, come and help with chores, repairs, and upkeep while you are away.

 

Do what you can to avoid the look of a derelict deed, abandoned by an ex-player, never intending to return. 

 

I sincerely hope that this helps explain why Wurmians are very hesitant to accuse, let alone publicly shame in the forums, another Wurmian for being a "thief." For all of the reasons, because of all these available ways to protect yourself and "your" property, it is actually really quite hard to truly steal, especially on a pve server.

 

If you feel a Wurmian has done you wrong or acted dishonorably - (1) try approaching the person directly to talk it out, (2) ask a mutual friend or respected member of the local community to help mediate, if needed, (3) consider if a different rule has been broken or line crossed - dishonorable trade dealings are reportable, as are repeated acts of hostility (ie griefing) - if this is the case use /support to report the actual violation, not "theft"... only after trying these 3 initial steps should you consider (4) start the "public shaming" at the Local level and establish a pattern of poor behavior before escalating to spreading the word around your whole server, to leaving negative reviews or comments or feedback for the player's dealings in the forums, and then finally, (5) dedicating an entire unique post in the forums just to calling out the specific player by name

 

It sounds a bit like you maybe jumped straight from the poor interactions directly to #5 - which is why many of these topic replies will feel very swift, very firm, and very "against" your actions. It's a good learnable moment - we were all new once, and there really is no other game quite like Wurm. It takes a little bit to "learn the ropes."

Good luck! 
~ Lady Amata of Havensfield
Independence, Southern Isles 

[RainRain 591]

i would like to be on this list where is your village ty

[BDCKoolaid 106]

Reading the comments pretty much confirmed my suspicion that people who make these "Name and Shame" threads are all the same. You feel burned by someone who didn't actually break any rules, so you try to take the rules into your own hands to somehow "punish" them by what basically amounts to slander.

 

The only thing I'm taking away from this thread is to never do business with players by the name of Ainelan

[RainRain 591]

community is pretty weird sometimes, i remember when someone took a cart from me on freedom so i /supported it and enki teleported down and ripped his heart out and gave it to me years ago

cart wasn't on a deed, it was near me and he took it; not secured- by all means, he had access to it and took it though i suppose that's not theft anymore?

dumb to give people you dont trust perms to take your stuff naturally but if they arent actually supposed to take something and they do, seems like stealing to me. just stealing that's entirely your fault for letting happen
on defiance tho just kill him if you have a problem with him or get your local Kingdom Police to beat him down

might be hard with WL rep mechanics but

(also from what i can see he got kicked from a village and wasn't given the chance to get his stuff or something but tbh with how he is i can't blame whoever kicked him)

Edited October 6, 2020 by RainRain

[Ainelan 4]

This isnt about breaking rules, this is about breaking standard norms of decent behavior. Calling out thefts (defined by common moral norms) publicly aims to prevent repeating of this behaviour in future, so others will not be harmed like me. If reputation loss will be bigger than gain in items it should lead to abandoning of such behaviour in future or to not committing such or similar behaviour by other players. At least in theory it could work. If shaming is only weapon I can use in restoring some justice I will use it. So should others if they became victims of such or similar behaviour. 

[Muse 2,219]

"Yet hate is a poison more deadly to the hater than the hated."

 

@AmataAmata made a lovely well thought out post above, one that we should all read.

[Muzukurin 15]

no proof

 

theres no law on defiance

 

get out

[Zexos 468]

5 hours ago, Ainelan said:

This isnt about breaking rules, this is about breaking standard norms of decent behavior. Calling out thefts (defined by common moral norms) publicly aims to prevent repeating of this behaviour in future, so others will not be harmed like me. If reputation loss will be bigger than gain in items it should lead to abandoning of such behaviour in future or to not committing such or similar behaviour by other players. At least in theory it could work. If shaming is only weapon I can use in restoring some justice I will use it. So should others if they became victims of such or similar behaviour. 

The shame and blame game is something that has been going on for far to long in the world.  I personally do not want to see shaming on wurm.  Even more so how you called it a "Sin"

If permissions are on for people to move objects in a village then people can and will move them.  If you do not want those objects to be moved then either put them inside a locked building where only you can enter or lock the item with a padlock that only you can open.    Then again if you want items out in the open and you want people to be able to move items but not take items then you need to lay down rules, if you are the mayor or a so called "Higher up"

 

If you want rules to be followed then enforce them yourself.  Take the responsibility that you made a mistake and you CAN learn from this.  You can learn how to better protect your items.  Other people have already said how in more detail.

You won't improve yourself and learn if you shame people.  There are a wide range of tools in game to help with protection of items and the same for your own social communication and community engagement. 

BTW - common moral norms is something that changes between person to person so if you want those norms to be enforced then best to enforce them yourself but just remember that people don't have to go along with it because they might not agree with your reality.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Zexos

[pherik 23]

The "theft" required us to call a GM to get back resources locked within your BSB's that we had gathered or purchased to help grind skills. You pushed them off the deed so you could leave and sell the stuff we were gathering at the time and we asked you to return the stuff and you kept insisting we stole your small crates which was a lie. Called a GM, they told YOU not to harass us and even teleported you far away from us so not sure where this major issue is. Posting this when you were specifically told to leave us alone kind of goes against what you were told to do. 

 

Also as a note, you were a member of the deed "The Steppes" and I was talking to you because the deed owner is in a completely opposite time zone so going after an old deed of mine like this is kind of idiotic and petty. I have no idea why you think we would have stolen your QL 5 to 10 logs when we had a stockpike of 45 and 50 at the time and had a stockpile of small crates sitting in the mine at the time. 

Edited October 7, 2020 by pherik
Clarification

[Loggy 35]

11 minutes ago, pherik said:

The "theft" required us to call a GM to get back resources locked within your BSB's that we had gathered or purchased to help grind skills. You pushed them off the deed so you could leave and sell the stuff we were gathering at the time and we asked you to return the stuff and you kept insisting we stole your small crates which was a lie. Called a GM, they told YOU not to harass us and even teleported you far away from us so not sure where this major issue is. Posting this when you were specifically told to leave us alone kind of goes against what you were told to do. 

 

Also as a note, you were a member of the deed "The Steppes" and I was talking to you because the deed owner is in a completely opposite time zone so going after an old deed of mine like this is kind of idiotic and petty. I have no idea why you think we would have stolen your QL 5 to 10 logs when we had a stockpile of 45 and 50 at the time and had a stockpile of small crates sitting in the mine at the time. 

Yes GM Astarte had called teleported you across the map and told you do not harass us, you also caused issues by griefing the neighbors, this was like almost 2 months ago, why are you posting this now? This had already been cleared up by a GM lol. I paid for your prem as you joined the Steppes and , made you carts and everything, we asked that you do not lock  anything on deed as it was shared. We even made 13 more crated for you because of your complaints ....

[Loggy 35]

18 hours ago, Ainelan said:

1) the small crates were on a  deed so he only could take them because he have permissions for that deed

2) yes, in both cases, in second case  we had an  agreement that I leave her deed with all my stuff but she broke that agreement 

 

I mention trade so others people are careful with trading with.them. From a thief isnt so far way to a swindler. 

GM astarte moved all of your items across the map, gave you everything you had there that had your name on it. 

 

 

[23:46:22] <Astarte> Do you want to keep those bsbs and the fsb? they have mostly stuff below 10ql
[23:46:36] <Planters> he can have them
[23:46:48] <Planters> all the carts in a line are his too
[23:47:16] <Planters> the stuff by the4 tent if our new villagers
[23:48:01] <Astarte> Excellent, I'll see if I can make him go faar away, if anything, I can offer him a one time transport to harmony
[23:48:46] <Planters> yeah he might have better luck there
[23:54:33] <Planters> Thankyou again for your time
[23:55:26] <Astarte> You're welcome I'm trying to find a place for him, and then i will come to get his stuff
[23:56:43] <Planters> thanks
[23:57:00] <Astarte> You're welcome
[00:18:59] <Astarte> Ok, I found him a spot far far away, not to take his things
[00:19:53] <Planters> harmony?
[00:20:35] <Astarte> No, he didn't want there, but I took him far away, G15 pr so
[00:20:53] <Planters> what about the stuff here ?
[00:21:00] <Astarte> He wont make you problems anymore
[00:21:05] <Planters> can you unlock it if he wont take it?
[00:21:38] <Astarte> All bsbs i seen have his name on him, if we talk the ones near the fsb, and only stuff below 10 ql, you need those?
[00:22:03] <Planters> just for supply purposes
[00:22:26] <Astarte> How many bsbs are there?
[00:22:56] <Planters> maybe 3-4
[00:24:18] <Planters> 4 and a fsb
[00:24:45] <Astarte> I'll give you empty ones instead
[00:24:52] <Planters> ok thanks
[00:25:25] <Planters> do you need me on deed goignt o s srmon next deed over
[00:25:55] <Astarte> No, Ill leave them here when im done
[00:26:02] <Astarte> You can do your stuff
[00:26:04] <Planters> ty
[00:26:12] <Astarte> You're welcome!
[00:34:13] <Planters> what do we do with the carts on deed can we toss themin the lake
[00:34:33] <Astarte> What carts?
[00:34:44] <Planters> the ones he left on our deed near the bsbs
[00:34:48] <Planters> liek 5 carts lol
[00:35:07] <Astarte> I found 7 carts with his name, and I took them
[00:35:12] <Planters> ok great

 

 

As you can see this was handled by a gm and you were the one causing issues and griefing, 

[Jore 338]

9 minutes ago, Loggy said:

As you can see this was handled by a gm and you were the one causing issues and griefing, 

god i love this ######

how do people rationalize this to themselves? 

[Ainelan 4]

ad pherik: You are lying. What Your resources did I took? Yes i pushed them out of the deed after you gave me ultimatum to unlocked them. And so I decided to leave your village.  I have to locked them all after your first theft of +- 450 logs. You yourself stole me my small crates so do not lie again. You did stole my logs. Period. You even told me that you took it. So do not lie again.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Ainelan