Reduce minimum perimeter to 1 tile.

[Darnok 200]

3 hours ago, Nekojin said:

This seems to be based on the fallacy that the perimeter is part of the deed, and the owner of the deed owns the perimeter. The perimeter is explicitly no-mans-land - it doesn't belong to the deed owner, it's a way of ensuring that some things are still available and accessible to everyone. Including, among other things, the ability to plan roads and Highways.

 

So why do you have to pay for it? 😄

[Locath 529]

7 minutes ago, Darnok said:

 

So why do you have to pay for it? 😄

 

 

https://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Settlement#Perimeter

 

The first 5 tiles around a settlement deed are free perimeter. You can extend beyond the free perimeter, but this will come at a cost.

[Nekojin 197]

10 minutes ago, Locath said:

 

 

https://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Settlement#Perimeter

 

The first 5 tiles around a settlement deed are free perimeter. You can extend beyond the free perimeter, but this will come at a cost.

Exactly. And the cost for extending your perimeter beyond that is a fraction of a cost compared to extending your actual deed - all you're doing is declaring more land that can't be claimed by anyone, keeping an extended, unowned distance away from you. The best use of this is to ensure that, sometime down the road, you CAN extend into that extra space with a guarantee that someone else's perimeter won't prevent you from doing that. 

[DaletheGood 1,073]

-1 Leave it as is. If people are being jerks about perimeters, call them out publicly and let the community shame and ostracize them. Those types of people don't tend to last that long in this game. I know, I've had my share of battles with people over land and perimeters and I've outworked and outlasted them all.

[Groot 76]

I don't really see any reason for the system to be changed in any way that isn't just allowing mayors to have less than 5 tiles of perimeter personally.

[Darnok 200]

2 hours ago, Locath said:

 

 

https://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Settlement#Perimeter

 

The first 5 tiles around a settlement deed are free perimeter. You can extend beyond the free perimeter, but this will come at a cost.

 

This should be 20-30 or even more, in PvE people can be only sneaky and nasty one for the other, because they can't fight. If you want to solve this problem, give them more free space or let disputes be resolved in a civilized way - in combat, not in a kindergarten way where a good lady looks after everyone.

Or deed creation should be a 24+ hour process during which time neighbors can ride over and destroy your settlement if they don't like you, but only if their deeds have already completed the process of creating/settling and they are nearby.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Darnok

[Nekojin 197]

Not a single word of that is in any way a useful suggestion, Darnok. Stop trolling. 

[TheTrickster 2,284]

I don't think a reduction in perimeters would reduce the disputes at all.   Well, it might drive people to give up and quit, so I guess it would reduce fights that way, but is that what we want?

 

The problem is indeed human nature:  humans have natural tendency to be selfish neighbours.  Perimeters are the Wurm variety of public buffer zones.  The advantage of the Wurm way is that they can't actually be owned, so the inability to build etc on them is more sensible (ask anyone IRL forced to live with an easement or planning restriction about their feelings on owning and maintaining space they can't use as they wish).  I see no advantage to bringing the bad neighbour closer, or even just the neighbour with differing priorities.  The planting of huge walls of trees or digging 200-slope trenches/holes would not be curtailed, but could occur even closer to your home, with even less that you could do about it, because more of it would be inside the other person's deed.  

 

A 1-tile perimeter would allow the situation where there no tiles between deeds that do not share corners with those deeds.  That could create severe limits on infrastructure or even basic travel.

 

An anecdote:  in a coastal community in my little corner of the world, there is a stretch of houses that back onto the kind of beaches most people think only exist in fantasy.  The houses front onto a street but their backyards lead straight onto the beach (and most have a little fence with a gate).  The street in front of the houses is broken into blocks and between the blocks is a small dead-end road giving public access to those beaches.  Several years ago many of those residents started to resent anyone from from outside their own little neighbourhood going to "their" beach and making sandcastles, putting up umbrellas, swimming etc.  They had decided that because they lived close to the public space, it shouldn't be public but part of their own domain.  If only they had the place to themselves, it would stop all the disputes - no more footballs or frisbees in the backyard, no more noisy games from people they didn't know.  So.... They started erecting barrier fences across the little dead-ends.  Well, that stopped the disagreements and disputes.  Not.  Confrontations were suddenly red-faced and shouty.  Because the locals had blurred the line between public access and their private ownership - and had in places quite effectively barred the public access points - other started climbing their fences and going through their yards to gain access.  Part of this issue was caused by the fact that the public access pathways were small enough to easily blockade.  Partly it was cause by the ratio of private access to public (prob something like 10-20 private access points for each public one).  Also, the inch-mile conversion was in full effect.

 

Another anecdote:  until relatively recent times, there has been a strict planning limit in our residential zones on how much of your own land can be under the footprint of your house.  Coincidentally, it was something like 27 percent.  These days, we have "zero lot" areas where you can build right up to some of the boundaries and put most of your land under you house footprint.  The result is not happier neighbours or fewer disputes.  The result is a greater reliance on dedicated public areas.  

 

That all said, there is an issue with the "extra" perimeter, for which you pay.  The issue is that you pay for it but it functions exactly the same as the area for which you don't pay (if I understand correctly).  The inner part of this bit should be a reduced-perms area, where nobody can built etc - basically limited to cutting, foraging, harvesting type activities.  You haven't paid enough to treat it as yours, but you have paid enough to reserve it from other uses.

 

 

Edited October 6, 2020 by TheTrickster

[Amata 400]

Oh hey, look at this thing that happened when I took a day to take care of IRL stuff.... Okay, I'll own this one (for better or for worse). I am one of the two people involved in the contention described in the OP. And although Platyna certainly has an insight to the fuss, as a part of the wider Local area - there are additional bits of information about the fuss that are omitted from the OP... and these omitted aspects substantially change the nature of the disagreement from a question of perimeter sizes and perms.... into something a little broader, and also a little more nebulous. 

 

Just to Clarify: having a thread with suggestions about the use and abuse of perimeters is its own thing. This is not actually what the argument was ultimately about, although I can easily understand why Platyna took perimeter drama as the central issue. 

 

I don't actually have much to say about this specific perimeter discussion - other people have already made the points I would make. IF (and only if) devs were considering changes to perimeters, I would be okay with reducing the minimum size perimeter to 3 tiles (making a minimum of 6 tiles wide between to adjacent deeds). It would shave off a little, but not too much. Ultimately I really don't think this specific change would be worth making. And, overall, I definitely don't think adjusting perimeters is a big priority for Wurm devs right now. 

And, as I have implied above - making changes to deed perimeters would not have actually had any impact on the disagreement that has taken place between myself and a neighbor. Moreover, I agree with others that perimeter changes would not necessarily help avoid (or  reduce) land & land use disagreements in the future. 

(( For what it's worth, Platyna - I'm thankful that you think I'm of value to the community. And I also really appreciate that you took time to discuss possible solutions to help me/us and Wurmians in the future.))

[Retrograde 12,013]

Thank you for that input Amata! 

 

I have spoken with the dev team, and we have no plans to adjust how perimeters work. The 5 per village border gives ample space between deeds. Having perimeters as close would not resolve any arguments about land ownership, and instead just mean more clashing as deeds are even closer together. 

 

@AmataIf you are having ongoing issues and anyone violates the game rules please don't hesitate to contact us by support. 

[Platyna 521]

On 10/6/2020 at 3:24 AM, Retrograde said:

Thank you for that input Amata! 

 

I have spoken with the dev team, and we have no plans to adjust how perimeters work. The 5 per village border gives ample space between deeds. Having perimeters as close would not resolve any arguments about land ownership, and instead just mean more clashing as deeds are even closer together. 

 

@AmataIf you are having ongoing issues and anyone violates the game rules please don't hesitate to contact us by support. 

 

Yes @Retrogradebut decreasing the perimeters would let people to be more in control what and how to be spaced from their neighbour. If one wants to be farther or closer, and I am really, really sure it would at least decrease the amount of drama. Check Steam comments, especially recent negative one - one of major "cons" was "the drama", and "the drama" is usually about the perimeter. If we decreased required perimeter to 1 tile and retain 5 tiles free one deed owners would have more freedom. It is a win-win. Not to mention that since deeds has to be rectangular there are people, like me who have two or more neighbouring deeds (either because of space availability or because they don't want to deed and pay for useless land such as water or a mountain). You should analyse the hard data - check GM tickets since e.g. last year and check how many were perimeter issue. I could bet nuts against dollars that is like in top 3. 

Edited October 9, 2020 by Platyna

[Brattygirl 917]

6 minutes ago, Platyna said:

Yes @Retrogradebut decreasing the perimeters would let people to be more in control what and how to be spaced from their neighbor. If one wants to be farther or closer, and I am really, really sure it would at least decrease the amount of drama. Check Steam comments, especially recent negative one - one of major "cons" was "the drama", and "the drama" is usually about the perimeter. If we decreased required perimeter to 1 tile and retain 5 tiles free one deed owners would have more freedom. It is a win-win. Not to mention that since deeds has to be rectangular there are people, like me who have two or more neighboring deeds (either because of space availability or because they don't want to deed and pay for useless land such as water or a mountain). You should analyze the hard data - check GM tickets since e.g. last year and check how many were perimeter issue. I could bet nuts against dollars that is like in top 3. 

 

But again, what happens to the players that want to abuse this? The ones that put there deeds together and form a wall to prevent others from passing through. I mean with enough money and players you can wall off anything. What kind of method would go in place to prevent something like this?

[Platyna 521]

But how to abuse it? You decide what perimeter you deed has. You would be able to put 1 tile or 20 tiles, it is up to you. You can put a wall between 5 tile perimeters too, but it is illegal to block access to something you don't own, it is griefing and it is not a scope of this thread. I fail to understand why people bring that up if you can block someone no matter what the size of perimeter is, but that person just has to do a support ticket and a griefer will be put in order. 

 

Now we not only have the blocking ability but also drama ability because no one should be surprised that people consider the perimeters THEIRS as they come with THEIR deeds and, since it is a huuuge area, they want to put it to a use. Not to mention that the fifth tile of the perimeter doesn't have to allow building fences or anything without deed perms. It could be a true perimeter, where you can just get some trees or bushes, or flowers or grass, eventually some pavement, as most of these dramas are indeed about the fact someone wants to have pens or other fenced areas on the perimeter - like fields.

 

Depending on the size of your deed, the terrain, construction and the amount of man power at my hand, I could keep you in your deed for months and make your life miserable, even if you had 20 tile perimeters, if we of course rule out GMs stepping in and rightfully sending my sorry butt to the oblivion. Here in SE Ind LVL 20 noobies can make their lives miserable in perimeter fights. 

 

To make a long story short, 5 tile perimeters does NOT prevent any abuse, it just adds the drama. 

Edited October 9, 2020 by Platyna

[Nekojin 197]

Again, shortening it to 1 tile would not solve any of that drama, it would just change it to slightly different arguments. The net total of drama would not go down, and might go up. 

 

Let's put it another way: What specific problem do you see this solving? Is it common? How would this fix it? Why would it work if consolidating into a single deed would not? 

Edited October 9, 2020 by Nekojin

[Brattygirl 917]

1 hour ago, Platyna said:

But how to abuse it? You decide what perimeter you deed has. You would be able to put 1 tile or 20 tiles, it is up to you. You can put a wall between 5 tile perimeters too, but it is illegal to block access to something you don't own, it is griefing and it is not a scope of this thread. I fail to understand why people bring that up if you can block someone no matter what the size of perimeter is, but that person just has to do a support ticket and a griefer will be put in order. 

 

Now we not only have the blocking ability but also drama ability because no one should be surprised that people consider the perimeters THEIRS as they come with THEIR deeds and, since it is a huuuge area, they want to put it to a use. Not to mention that the fifth tile of the perimeter doesn't have to allow building fences or anything without deed perms. It could be a true perimeter, where you can just get some trees or bushes, or flowers or grass, eventually some pavement, as most of these dramas are indeed about the fact someone wants to have pens or other fenced areas on the perimeter - like fields.

 

Depending on the size of your deed, the terrain, construction and the amount of man power at my hand, I could keep you in your deed for months and make your life miserable, even if you had 20 tile perimeters, if we of course rule out GMs stepping in and rightfully sending my sorry butt to the oblivion. Here in SE Ind LVL 20 noobies can make their lives miserable in perimeter fights. 

 

To make a long story short, 5 tile perimeters does NOT prevent any abuse, it just adds the drama. 

Imagine there is a lake. Say an alliance decides we want to own the lake. So they make a bunch of small tiny deeds around the outside of the lake with their borders touching, then builds tall stone walls and gates. They have now wall off a section of the map and prevent anyone else from using said lake. I mean someone could even claim around one of the starter towns if they really wanted to. It just seems like something that would become abused and create a hassle for both the staff and wurmians. 

[Platyna 521]

If there is a lake, and you want to own it, deed it, if they want to make tiny deeds - they paid for them, they are theirs, yet still 1 tile perimeter give 2 tile access to the lake for everyone, there is decay and if they build a tall stone wall at the border of 5 tile perimeters or 1 tile perimeters, everyone can smash it. And no matter how many tiles the perimeter would be, something like that would cause a drama so big, that Sophocles would blush, and this would probably require Enki or some other high GM to step in, who can simply rule on easement. This works IRL, why it can't work in Wurm? 

 

Not to mention we had something like what happens in Wurm now in Poland - we had fields that had to be separated by miedza (it was something like perimeter in Wurm), and this piece of land was kinda useful as it was encircling a whole field, it was a pretty huge area, so despite the law saying that miedza shouldn't be plough and sown people were always trying to bite some of it because even a tiny bit brought a huge profit. So we had generations lasting bloody miedza wars, seriously, people were killing each other for it, which was cut down by simply removing this requirement and suddenly it all stop. The land is either owned or not, clear and sharp. 

 

And the last drama, in SE Ind I know about was nothing else than HL perimeter where two deed mayors living nearby argued hard, and we had to witness that, and if they even called a GM the poor guy or gal would probably have a major problem to reach any satisfactory solution, and they have to spend their tile reading all that bickering (well I was a part of perimeter drama and bickered too, as I had no choice, so I know this first hand how stressful and unpleasant it may get). 

 

Anyway, kind request to developers and GM - analyse the hard data, see your tickets, see forums complaints, see Steam complaints, and consider if maybe this would be a good idea. 

Edited October 9, 2020 by Platyna

[Thalius 246]

On 10/5/2020 at 8:24 PM, Retrograde said:

Thank you for that input Amata! 

 

I have spoken with the dev team, and we have no plans to adjust how perimeters work. The 5 per village border gives ample space between deeds. Having perimeters as close would not resolve any arguments about land ownership, and instead just mean more clashing as deeds are even closer together. 

 

@AmataIf you are having ongoing issues and anyone violates the game rules please don't hesitate to contact us by support. 

Glad to see this will not change. 5 tiles is a good standard buffer between deeds in my experience, adding up to a total 10 tiles of minimum space between neighboring deeds, and if a player wants even more of a buffer zone between themselves and neighboring deeds, they can pay extra for it.  ANY deed perimeter size can be abused if someone is determined enough. Making the standard perimeter smaller won't fix a thing at best, and could make it easier to grief other players at worst.

One option I'd like to see is to be able to set perimeter boarder sizes independently rather than one set size for all sides of your deed.  I have many times thought on a few of my deeds that I'd love to expand the perimeter on my north or south sides, but really don't care to spend for the extra space to east or west. That, or a friend and neighbor close on one side prevents me from expanding my perimeter on any of the other sides of my deed I might want the extra buffer on.

[Nekojin 197]

42 minutes ago, Platyna said:

If there is a lake, and you want to own it, deed it, if they want to make tiny deeds - they paid for them, they are theirs, yet still 1 tile perimeter give 2 tile access to the lake for everyone, there is decay and if they build a tall stone wall at the border of 5 tile perimeters or 1 tile perimeters, everyone can smash it. And no matter how many tiles the perimeter would be, something like that would cause a drama so big, that Sophocles would blush, and this would probably require Enki or some other high GM to step in, who can simply rule on easement. This works IRL, why it can't work in Wurm? 

 

Not to mention we had something like what happens in Wurm now in Poland - we had fields that had to be separated by miedza (it was something like perimeter in Wurm), and this piece of land was kinda useful as it was encircling a whole field, it was a pretty huge area, so despite the law saying that miedza shouldn't be plough and sown people were always trying to bite some of it because even a tiny bit brought a huge profit. So we had generations lasting bloody miedza wars, seriously, people were killing each other for it, which was cut down by simply removing this requirement and suddenly it all stop. The land is either owned or not, clear and sharp. 

 

And the last drama, in SE Ind I know about was nothing else than HL perimeter where two deed mayors living nearby argued hard, and we had to witness that, and if they even called a GM the poor guy or gal would probably have a major problem to reach any satisfactory solution, and they have to spend their tile reading all that bickering (well I was a part of perimeter drama and bickered too, as I had no choice, so I know this first hand how stressful and unpleasant it may get). 

 

Anyway, kind request to developers and GM - analyse the hard data, see your tickets, see forums complaints, see Steam complaints, and consider if maybe this would be a good idea. 

 

Although there's not enough info to really make a concrete discussion, it sounds like the situation you describe is a problem of clashing personalities, not one of perimeter drama. Changing the perimeter sizes smaller wouldn't solve that, it'd make it worse. The only real solution would be for one or both of the parties to vacate, move somewhere else where they aren't in close proximity to each other. But both feel too heavily invested in their location, so they don't want to move, they want the other to move. This is the sort of conflict that GMs are hired to deal with. 

 

This is a game. Things are already vastly simplified over reality. Solutions that would work in reality are usually complex and complicated, something that works IRL may not have any contextual relationship to things that happen in games. Trying to apply real-life examples of problems is rife with contextual irrelevance that can make the comparison moot. 

 

And they have already analyzed the data, which is why they have already said that they have no plans to change how perimeters work. Which is partly a shame, because... 

 

36 minutes ago, Thalius said:

One option I'd like to see is to be able to set perimeter boarder sizes independently rather than one set size for all sides of your deed.  I have many times thought on a few of my deeds that I'd love to expand the perimeter on my north or south sides, but really don't care to spend for the extra space to east or west. That, or a friend and neighbor close on one side prevents me from expanding my perimeter on any of the other sides of my deed I might want the extra buffer on.

 

... this is a good suggestion, and one I would support. 

Edited October 9, 2020 by Nekojin

[Badvoc 204]

Stupid idea imo.

 

Don't need to fix what isn't broken, 5 tiles ( 10 in total between 2 deeds ) works fine, I would rather have the Devs work on important issues that need addressed.

[Darnok 200]

1 hour ago, Platyna said:

If there is a lake, and you want to own it, deed it, if they want to make tiny deeds - they paid for them, they are theirs, yet still 1 tile perimeter give 2 tile access to the lake for everyone

 

You also pay for the perimeter. You can't have a free perimeter without a deed, so when you buy a deed you also buying a perimeter. You want to take 4 tiles from people space good luck with that, -1.
What you don't understand is that it is the lack of space that causes conflicts, if everyone has enough space to feel that they cannot manage any more pixels during their time spent in the game, they will not waste time on conflicts. Give people space, conflicts will end.

Edited October 9, 2020 by Darnok

[Oblivionnreaver 5,174]

2 hours ago, brattygirl said:

So they make a bunch of small tiny deeds around the outside of the lake with their borders touching, then builds tall stone walls and gates. They have now wall off a section of the map and prevent anyone else from using said lake

You can already do that with the current system by building a longhouse that stretches from one deed to another through the perimeter though

 

i'd like an option to remove my perimeter manually as its useless for me and my loud noises and garbage deed design keep people from building near me already but don't really see a reason to remove the automatic free perimeter entirely

[Platyna 521]

Entirely it is impossible because there would be wars on fence style, in Poland, where almost all building plots are fenced we have a lot of issues with it, not to mention it would probably require major game mechanics rewrite. 

Edited October 9, 2020 by Platyna

[TheTrickster 2,284]

1 hour ago, Darnok said:

 

You also pay for the perimeter. You can't have a free perimeter without a deed, so when you buy a deed you also buying a perimeter. You want to take 4 tiles from people space good luck with that, -1.
What you don't understand is that it is the lack of space that causes conflicts, if everyone has enough space to feel that they cannot manage any more pixels during their time spent in the game, they will not waste time on conflicts. Give people space, conflicts will end.

 

No, this is again the fallacy of it being the deed's perimeter in some kind of possessive way.  It isn't.  It is not the perimeter OF the deed is the perimeter AROUND the deed.  It is a no-man's-land.  As in "if you kids can't play nice I am going to separate you".

 

The fallacy of the perimeter belonging to the deed is fed by the ability to pay to get extra perimeter.  The solution to that is to always have the "free" 5-tile perimeter and have a the "bought" bit inside that as a different kind of perimeter, with even more restricted perms than the standard buffer.

 

Lack of space is not a thing at all in Wurm.  A dozen servers to choose from, and the only one that seems to have been crowded with deeds (according to the official word) was Melody.

 

 

[Darnok 200]

6 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

 

No, this is again the fallacy of it being the deed's perimeter in some kind of possessive way.  It isn't.  It is not the perimeter OF the deed is the perimeter AROUND the deed.  It is a no-man's-land.  As in "if you kids can't play nice I am going to separate you".

 

The fallacy of the perimeter belonging to the deed is fed by the ability to pay to get extra perimeter.  The solution to that is to always have the "free" 5-tile perimeter and have a the "bought" bit inside that as a different kind of perimeter, with even more restricted perms than the standard buffer.

 

Lack of space is not a thing at all in Wurm.  A dozen servers to choose from, and the only one that seems to have been crowded with deeds (according to the official word) was Melody.

 

 

 

If separation works in real life, why wouldn't it work here?

 

A few days ago there was an sale announcement "I will deliver a free corbita, all you have to do is pay 15s for a lead anchor", so corbita is free or not?

How can I set up a settlement with only a free perimeter?

If I can't, the perimeter is not free, it is part of the deed for which we all pay.

 

 

[Locath 529]

13 hours ago, Platyna said:

To make a long story short, 5 tile perimeters does NOT prevent any abuse, it just adds the drama. 

Is there any chance that it's not the perimeter but players who cause the drama?

Is this perhaps one, specific player again?