Reduce minimum perimeter to 1 tile.

[Nekojin 197]

I planted at least a dozen Catseyes in a perimeter this weekend.

[Platyna 521]

5 minutes ago, Nekojin said:

Which still doesn't answer the problem of being able to Highway if you're NOT one of those deeds. You could make a 2-wide road in that narrow gap (provided slope wasn't a problem), but the Deeds being that close would completely block the ability to lay down Catseyes.

 

I am telling you the third time that you CAN"T plant highway markers on someone else perimeter, 5 tile or 3 tile. Doesn't matter, you can't without plant and pave permissions from the mayor, and depends on the deed settings is either 3 tiles or 5 tiles, which was also demonstrated by me in this thread: 

 

 

Not to mention

Edited October 5, 2020 by Platyna

[Nekojin 197]

You are wrong. I just did. The only place where the Catseyes were a problem were the point where the Catseye protection radius would spill into the Deed.

 

If you'd like to come to Cadence to check it out, the place where I did this is in J-15, only a few minutes West of Sonata.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Nekojin

[Locath 531]

1 minute ago, Platyna said:

I am telling you the third time that you CAN"T plant highway markers on someone else perimeter, 5 tile or 2 tile. Doesn't matter, you can't without plant and pave permissions from the mayor. 

I am telling you, i had highways made by people i never heard of in my perimeter. This is why perimeters exist.

 

[Platyna 521]

Locath you can deed and put an existing highway on your perimeter. Anyway I am not going to argue as I argued it already several times, posted the screen recordings, watch them and if you still think otherwise, you are more than welcome to visit me at R20 Ind (Platinum Ranch), demonstrate it and I will be more than happy update my highway knowledge and the Wiki article. 

 

Still, despite if you can't or you cannot, pushing highways on people's perimeters when they do not wish it is simply rude and there was a major drama about it on forums too. The idea I posted is to prevent dramas and make our community healthier. 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Platyna

[Nekojin 197]

7 minutes ago, Platyna said:

Still, despite if you can't or you cannot, pushing highways on people's perimeters when they do not wish it is simply rude and there was a major drama about it on forums too. The idea I posted is to prevent dramas and make our community healthier. 

Your idea would not prevent dramas nor make our community healthier. It would change what the arguments were about, and how people were abusing the rules, but it would not fix anything that's currently broken, and would add new problems.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Nekojin

[Ekcin 2,407]

It seems to me that Nekojin is right about protections must not be going into the deed unless permitted by the owner. That way, catseyes may only be planted on the outer two tiles of the perimeter so that protection does not touch any deed corner. 

 

I won't comment on KoS too much, I deem the system sh*t on PvE and a can of worms for abusers with alt deeds while being widely impotent against bit advanced fighters unless the KoSer spends insane amounts for guards. In fact, as it isn't even restricted to active or premium players, it is a harrassment bot system. The restriction about highways only disallows to connect your deed to the highway routing system. To my knowledge, it does not even forbid a highway going directly through your deed (not sure about).

Edited October 5, 2020 by Ekcin

[Nekojin 197]

2 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

It seems to me that Nekojin is right about protections must not be going into the deed unless permitted by the owner. That way, catseyes may only be planted on the outer two tiles of the perimeter so that protection does not touch any deed corner. 

 

I won't comment on KoS too much, I deem the system ###### on PvE and a can of worms for abusers with alt deeds while being widely impotent against bit advanced fighters unless the KoSer spends insane amounts for guards. In fact, as it isn't even restricted to active or premium players, it is a harrassment bot system. The restriction about highways only disallows to connect your deed to the highway routing system. To my knowledge, it does not even forbid a highway going directly through your deed (not sure about).

To the best of my knowledge, you are not capable of turning KOS on if there is any Highway on your Deed in any context, and you cannot place Catseyes or Waystones anywhere on a deed - including your own deed - where the protection radius would fall onto a deed with KOS on, to the same extent that you cannot place a Catseye or Waystone in any place where the protection radius would extend into a deed that you don't have the planting/paving permissions.

[Locath 531]

Don't take this the wrong way. i would LOVE to be able to connect deeds with my allies and make a massive metropolis.

Before this is allowed though, issues raised above and those we didn't think of need to be resolved systemically first. No dev in their right mind will agree to make a small (technically) change in code to spend hours upon hours dealing with /support tickets for the rest of their life. 

 

Currently, perimeter ensures safe passage and is wide enough that there is no easy way to block it which can't be fixed by the next player by dropping a few dirts or building fences/structures which decay faster in perim so high maintenance.

It also ensures that one person can't cut half of the server from the highway system. While you are allowed to deed over a highway and disconnect from it, others can plot the highway around your place using the perimeter to rebuild it. This has been done many times.

 

Propose how to avoid those issues other than "we promise to play nice" or "put it in the rules" and make GMs chase players who might never log back in or do the manual labor fixing each and every case and i'll be the first one to back this idea up. 

[Locath 531]

18 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

it does not even forbid a highway going directly through your deed (not sure about).

Correct, it's either-or setting in the settlement settings. You can still have a highway in your perim and KoS though. You can have KoS enabled and someone can plot a highway in your perim too.

 

I'm not sure if this is clear, Templars and tower guards don't attack people in perimeter, until they enter the deed. The highway clearly marks the safe route so KoS is not a problem even for the person being KoSd.

Unless they decide to enter the deed (actual deed, not perimeter) and you get a nice, big warning about you being on KoS when you enter the perimeter so you know to stick to the road because someone doesn't want you at their village.

 

That's all it does. People who are on KoS don't bother trying to fight the guards. People who own the place have a way to ensure their mother-in-law or whoever, doesn't enter their homestead. It's that simple (and a bit off-topic but related to the original proposal).

Edited October 5, 2020 by Locath

[Nekojin 197]

13 minutes ago, Locath said:

While you are allowed to deed over a highway and disconnect from it, others can plot the highway around your place using the perimeter to rebuild it.

By the rules as written, you're not even allowed to disconnect it like that without first placing a replacement bypass. It doesn't matter that it's now on your deed - the Highway was already planted, and if you want it off your deed, you have to make the changes to ensure that the Highway remains unbroken before you can start ripping it out of your deed.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Nekojin

[Locath 531]

2 minutes ago, Nekojin said:

you have to make the changes to ensure that the Highway remains unbroken before you can start ripping it out of your deed.

 

A ) You may not intentionally disable an active highway connection by removing the catseyes without rerouting or replacing them promptly .
    1> Deeds retain the right to disconnect from the highway system by removal of their waystone and any deactivated catseyes on their deed and perimeter.

 

I might understand this wrong then but again, with 1 tile min perim, someone who wants to avail of the option of disconnecting form highway system, it wouldn't be doable.

[Platyna 521]

I don't remember if game mechanics will prevent you from having a highway on 4 and 5th perimeter tile, I am pretty sure it won't, but KOS on highways is forbidden by the game rules and it is activated when a person on KOS enters first perimeter tile, so one way or another, you can't have KOS if you have a highway on your perimeter, as KOS on highways is not allowed, also official Wiki states KOS cannot be used in a way you suggest it to be used.

 

Not to mention that building a highway on a perimeter of a mayor who explicite said they don't want it is a reason for a perimeter war, especially that as Locath said, a mayor can remove highway markers from his deed and perimeters, so there is no way 5 tile perimeters gives you any more highway building rights. 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Platyna

[Nekojin 197]

5 minutes ago, Locath said:

A ) You may not intentionally disable an active highway connection by removing the catseyes without rerouting or replacing them promptly .
    1> Deeds retain the right to disconnect from the highway system by removal of their waystone and any deactivated catseyes on their deed and perimeter.

What that says is that you retain the right to remove yourself from the highway system, by removing the Waystone that identifies your presence. And then you can remove the catseye chain that connects your deed to the main Highway, because you're not changing the highway, you're just removing yourself from it.

 

The key words there is that you can remove deactivated catseyes once you've removed the Waystone. You can't just remove an unbroken, active string of catseyes that happen to be on your deed willy-nilly. Someone who extends their deed and uses that extension to cut off a Highway without replacing it is a guaranteed GM call, and it will not go well for the Deed owner.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Nekojin

[Locath 531]

3 minutes ago, Platyna said:

Wiki states KOS cannot be used in a way you suggest it to be used.

Please explain. Kos is meant to stop specific people from entering your deed.

 

7 minutes ago, Platyna said:

Not to mention that building a highway on a perimeter of a mayor who explicite said they don't want it is a reason for a perimeter war, especially that as Locath said, a mayor can remove highway markers from his deed and perimeters, so there is no way 5 tile perimeters gives you any more highway building rights. 

I don't know what perimeter war is but i don't own my perimeter. I can disallow highways going through my deed but there is a safe strip of land which can't be controlled by a player and which enables highways to be built around those.

 

6 minutes ago, Platyna said:

I am pretty sure it won't, but KOS on highways is forbidden by the game rules and it is activated when a person on KOS enters first perimeter tile,

You are wrong. You get a warning when you enter the perimeter. It only activates the guards when you enter the first tile of the deed (another reason for perimeter to exist).

 

 

 

[Locath 531]

4 minutes ago, Nekojin said:

The key words there is that you can remove deactivated catseyes once you've removed the Waystone. You can't just remove an unbroken, active string of catseyes that happen to be on your deed willy-nilly. Someone who extends their deed and uses that extension to cut off a Highway without replacing it is a guaranteed GM call, and it will not go well for the Deed owner.

You are probably correct but the rule could be worded better.

4 minutes ago, Nekojin said:

1> Deeds retain the right to disconnect from the highway system by removal of their waystone and any deactivated catseyes on their deed and perimeter. but route still has to be reconnected by the owner

Something like that? If this is the case (would make more sense to be honest than my interpretation).

 

[Platyna 521]

Locath, yes, specific people not all people, also KoS is noto allowed to be used to block resources you do not own or roads, and this is clearly what was suggested here, check this:

 

https://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/KoS

 

Wiki says: 

Quote

When a player is placed on a deed's kill on sight list, spirit templars will attack them if they attempt to enter the deed, and tower guards will attack them once they enter the deed's perimeter (if their tower is nearby).

 

[Nekojin 197]

No, that change would muddy the waters further. I agree that the current wording is a little hard to understand, but that line is solely about the ability/right of people to remove themselves from the highway, not to remove the highway from their deed. For best clarity, you'd want to make another list point, not add to that one.

 

One of the lesser-known bits of the Highway system is that, with only a few key, specific exceptions, nobody can remove a Waystone except the person that put it there. And if it's in the middle of an active highway chain, you can't even remove it, you can only replace it with a Catseye.

 

Imagine this chain: X-X-X-X-Y-X-X-X

 

Xes are Catseyes, the Y is a Waystone, and this is an excerpt of a fully-activated Highway - there's more Catseyes on both ends of that.

 

Other people can connect to that Waystone. Nobody can remove it except the person who placed it. If I choose to remove that Waystone, I have to replace it with a Catseye as a single action, I can't just take it out. AFAIK, that Waystone is completely indestructible, like the paved road underneath it. The Catseyes are destructible, but it's difficult to do when they're connected, and doing so without having an alternate route that keeps everyone "down-chain" from being disconnected is potentially a GM visit waiting to happen.

[Platyna 521]

Well I disagree. And I am very pro highways, and I love highways, I build a lot of highways, but I would prefer to make people happy with them not sad. Rules lets you to smash all the markers you have on your perimeter, it is said so. So 5 tile perimeter gives you no more rights. You can't force people to accept a highway, you can convince them, show them the profits, but if you try to force them you will get a war on local and 8-page drama threads on forums. Perimeter wars are a big problem, and this has to stop, because Wurm is loosing players, and we lose our joy from the game. 

 

And I still stress it as much as I can: this is AN OPTION, we should still be allowed to have 5 tiles for free. So, if you want someone to build a highway on your perimeter you just resize your deed to free enough tiles they can do it or give deed permissions. I have terraforming permissions to many, many deeds and most mayors when they learn how many perks highways give even ask me to come and route them.

[Locath 531]

1 hour ago, Platyna said:

not to mention a player with decent gear and FS 50 can kill off all your guards with ease,

So is it a problem or not?

 

Remove KoS and a lot of deeds will get fenced in removing a lot of shortcuts from everyone instead of the selected few, just to stop the selected few from entering the deed. 

 

Highway in perim scenario:

If i don't like Mr X i put Mr X in KoS and they know they shouldn't enter my deed.

If i can't put Mr X on KoS, i'm fencing the entire place in and no one can pass through it to take a shortcut. Innocents suffer.

 

What needs fixing is the tower guards not following the same rules as templars (if this is the case, i never had a complaint and my deeds have covered highways in perimeter and had KoS enabled).

 

Now, back to the original point. 

It would be nice to have the ability to even completely remove perimeter to make adjacent deeds but because of the human nature, it had to be implemented that if your deed is 4x longer than it is wide, cost per tile raises dramatically. Again, to stop people from locking others in using "strip settlements". 11x100 to annoy someone will cost you a lot more than 25x44 (same number of tiles).

 

Players will always have their feuds over a tree cut down in the wrong place or market competition or something someone's aunt said at a thanksgiving dinner 25 years ago. 

 

What you are proposing is opening a way to grief using the "but i'm allowed to, i paid for those tiles" without proposing any solutions to the problems presented.

 

I'm a natural born realist and i know it would be abused.

 

on a 2 tile gap between my deeds, coincidentally blocking someone i don't like, it just happens that i have walls all around (as many people do) and the 2 tiles between those deeds were the perfect place to open a 2 tile wide mine entrance. 

 

Stop things like the above from happening by something other than "it's in the rules, you can't block..." so that GMs don't have to chase people who might never log back in or fix those issues by hand themselves and you have my support. 

 

[Nekojin 197]

25 minutes ago, Platyna said:

Rules lets you to smash all the markers you have on your perimeter, it is said so. So 5 tile perimeter gives you no more rights.

I think you want to reread the rules, because it doesn't say what you think it says. You are either ignoring important words, or inserting additional meaning that isn't in there. 

 

26 minutes ago, Platyna said:

You can't force people to accept a highway, you can convince them, show them the profits, but if you try to force them you will get a war on local and 8-page drama threads on forums. Perimeter wars are a big problem, and this has to stop, because Wurm is loosing players, and we lose our joy from the game. 

You've been here long enough, you should already know the answer to this. You don't own your perimeter. People trying to enforce their will, and doing it maliciously, will end up with them being stung by GM rulings. 

 

28 minutes ago, Platyna said:

And I still stress it as much as I can: this is AN OPTION, we should still be allowed to have 5 tiles for free. So, if you want someone to build a highway on your perimeter you just resize your deed to free enough tiles they can do it or give deed permissions. I have terraforming permissions to many, many deeds and most mayors when they learn how many perks highways give even ask me to come and route them.

 

Or you can just use the rules as they already exist, and instead of trying to get the rules changed to make two deeds really really close, instead just join forces, share one deed together, and voila, no perimeter between you at all. 

[Ekcin 2,407]

1 hour ago, Locath said:

Correct, it's either-or setting in the settlement settings. You can still have a highway in your perim and KoS though. You can have KoS enabled and someone can plot a highway in your perim too.

 

I'm not sure if this is clear, Templars and tower guards don't attack people in perimeter, until they enter the deed. The highway clearly marks the safe route so KoS is not a problem even for the person being KoSd.

Unless they decide to enter the deed (actual deed, not perimeter) and you get a nice, big warning about you being on KoS when you enter the perimeter so you know to stick to the road because someone doesn't want you at their village.

 

That's all it does. People who are on KoS don't bother trying to fight the guards. People who own the place have a way to ensure their mother-in-law or whoever, doesn't enter their homestead. It's that simple (and a bit off-topic but related to the original proposal).

Locath, it is not true. Guards attack once the one on KoS enters perimeter, only templars respect other deeds. I had the situation with a rogue player practically besieging my deed with three alt deeds, with the effect that i was nearly unable not to hit perimeter resulting in tower guards intruding my deed and killing pets, sometimes ridden or hitched/led horses. And the jerk was not on for nearly a year til his sh*t deeds dropped. KoS is a bot system open to abuse and chicanery. I would not say anything against if it were restricted to active premium mayor players (dropping after 4 weeks not logged in to the server), one KoS per server and premium player, not character (alt).

Edited October 5, 2020 by Ekcin

[Locath 531]

1 minute ago, Ekcin said:

Guards attack once the one on KoS enters perimeter, only templars respect other deeds.

 

22 minutes ago, Locath said:

What needs fixing is the tower guards not following the same rules as templars (if this is the case, i never had a complaint and my deeds have covered highways in perimeter and had KoS enabled).

 

[Ekcin 2,407]

Guards can enter every locked pen, even houses, only not mine doors, and are dysfunctional in mines. That (except the mines which is a decade old bug) is intended function from PvP with warring kingdoms and tower chaining. It would be harder to remove that than KoS altogether.

[Locath 531]

I meant them reacting to people in perim (on PvE). Trigger them the same way Templars do.