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Platyna

Reduce minimum perimeter to 1 tile.

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Let's face it, Wurm has a problem with perimeter wars, we can see them on forums, and those who live in very populated areas such as SE Ind, can also see them quite often on local. It destroys local communities, people hate each other, some people leave, sometimes to other servers sometimes completely not to mention GMs has to deal with the tickets and it is a hard for a GM, because "perimeters are not owned", yet there is a play nice rule and each GM, as the RPG tradition says, should care so the game goes smooth and is enjoyable for players. Last drama I witnessed was yesterday where two people, who I kinda think are both valuable to our local community, went nasty on each other and one of them is about to rage quit. When I started to play I also got into a perimeter war, well it is quite understandable that if someone plants huge trees to obscure my view or dig 200 slope holes in front of my deed, I am not going to be a fan of them. 

 

What I said above is caused by a simple thing: the human nature. Humans are territorial animals, some are less some are more, for example IRL in Poland perimeter wars, even bloody ones, are deeply rooted in our culture, and many of us will fight for "every tile". 

 

Another thing, 5 tile perimeters are a huge area, no wonder that people want to make a use of it. Let's see a minimal deed: 

 

Quote

Total deed size: 11X11 (121 tiles)
Including perimeter: 21X21 (441 tiles)
Total creation cost: 1s 21c
Total upkeep cost: 1s
Max animals: 8
Max guards: 2

 

121 tiles out of 441 tiles is ~27,5%, this is quite an absurd, that more than 70% of the land you deed is "no man's land".

 

Larger deeds are also more upkeep so a better money drain.

 

Reducing perimeter to one tile could end all this bad blood, you can plant a some flowers or a row of trees, put an additional fence and that's all, and if someone wants to have a huge perimeter they still can have it. The transition would be painless, because your current deed configuration would be retained so you will be able to reduce the perimeter and resize the deed or not, at will.

 

To make a long story short, I see a lot of advantages of this solution and no disadvantages. 

Edited by Platyna

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It's possible that reducing the perimeter would just result in the same arguments playing out 1 tile from a deed instead of 5.

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Increase base perimeter to 50, if you won't be able to see what other person is doing he won't be your problem.

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1 minute ago, SirMuttley said:

It's possible that reducing the perimeter would just result in the same arguments playing out 1 tile from a deed instead of 5.

 

There isn't much you can do with 1 tile. One tile times 11 tiles is 11 tiles, 5 tiles times 11 tiles is 55 tiles. Pure maths. 

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Far better would be if we can decide Perimeter seperate on each side....

Edited by Caduryn
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48 minutes ago, Platyna said:

To make a long story short, I see a lot of advantages of this solution and no disadvantages. 

How do you propose to deal with whole alliances (or a single person with alts) locking you in and putting you on KoS on all of those deeds, leaving only 2 tiles between them which are easy to be made unpassable (e.g. slopes)?

 

Main reason for the perimeter being implemented in the first place is to systemically stop people from doing exactly this.

 

I would like to see a possibility to completely connect allied deeds but it does pose a risk of being abused.

 

GMs can't be running around the world all day checking and ruling on situations like that. This is why perimeter exists, this is why highways were systemized as well.

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Add optional 0 perimeter, it would be nice to plant deeds side by side without perim gaps in which ppl can bash&loot your stuff.

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1 tile perimeter x2 is not wide enough for a highway; people attempting to "thread the needle" will not be able to get past them without either going around or getting explicit assistance from one (or both) of the two Deeds. It might even be impossible to do without both deeds changing default permissions related to planting roads and catseyes.

Edited by Nekojin
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ack.... that horrible thing about perimeters....  :angry:

 

really... if you want to do a good thing, dev-team, then put a restriction onto the perimeters! as an example: only foraging and botanizing are allowed. nothing more! and only if you really want to expand your deed then you have the permission.

 

okay... roadbuilding should be doable. but only the deed-owner should have the permission.

Edited by Zaidonia
i forgot the road
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While I would personally like to be able to have two deeds touching each other, Locath brings up a valid point. What would prevent a player from abusing this?

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20 minutes ago, Zaidonia said:

ack.... that horrible thing about perimeters....  :angry:

 

really... if you want to do a good thing, dev-team, then put a restriction onto the perimeters! as an example: only foraging and botanizing are allowed. nothing more! and only if you really want to expand your deed then you have the permission.

 

okay... roadbuilding should be doable. but only the deed-owner should have the permission.

This seems to be based on the fallacy that the perimeter is part of the deed, and the owner of the deed owns the perimeter. The perimeter is explicitly no-mans-land - it doesn't belong to the deed owner, it's a way of ensuring that some things are still available and accessible to everyone. Including, among other things, the ability to plan roads and Highways.

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2 hours ago, Platyna said:

 

There isn't much you can do with 1 tile. One tile times 11 tiles is 11 tiles, 5 tiles times 11 tiles is 55 tiles. Pure maths. 

 

with 1 tile perimeter you can literally wall in a bloke in its deed without him being able to leave said deed. if thats not abusable af i will just laugh :)

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22 minutes ago, brattygirl said:

While I would personally like to be able to have two deeds touching each other, Locath brings up a valid point. What would prevent a player from abusing this?

 

Only allow it for Alliances and Alt Characters... would work i guess...

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1 hour ago, Martynas5 said:

Add optional 0 perimeter, it would be nice to plant deeds side by side without perim gaps in which ppl can bash&loot your stuff.

 

This would be a problem, who will be owner of this tile border row? IRL it also causes problems, when e.g. one neighbour wants a different fencing style than the other. 

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44 minutes ago, Nekojin said:

1 tile perimeter x2 is not wide enough for a highway; people attempting to "thread the needle" will not be able to get past them without either going around or getting explicit assistance from one (or both) of the two Deeds. It might even be impossible to do without both deeds changing default permissions related to planting roads and catseyes.

 

You want a highway on your deed you put it on your deed, no more problems with people dropping dirt, decaying bannisters etc. and no need some semi-security (if you make a highway on your perimeter you still need to give people plant and pave perms if they want them to work on it). 

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7 minutes ago, Skatyna said:

 

with 1 tile perimeter you can literally wall in a bloke in its deed without him being able to leave said deed. if thats not abusable af i will just laugh :)

 

With 5 tile perimeters you can do exactly the same, and it is a bannable offence to block access to something you don't own. Not to mention I thought I made it clear that 1 tile perimeter should be an option and if you don't like it you could still have 5 or even 10 tiles or even 50. 

Edited by Platyna

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1 hour ago, Locath said:

How do you propose to deal with whole alliances (or a single person with alts) locking you in and putting you on KoS on all of those deeds, leaving only 2 tiles between them which are easy to be made unpassable (e.g. slopes)?

 

Main reason for the perimeter being implemented in the first place is to systemically stop people from doing exactly this.

 

I would like to see a possibility to completely connect allied deeds but it does pose a risk of being abused.

 

GMs can't be running around the world all day checking and ruling on situations like that. This is why perimeter exists, this is why highways were systemized as well.

 

KOS is mean and I have no idea why it is even allowed on PVE, and you can't have a highway and KOS on, not to mention a player with decent gear and FS 50 can kill off all your guards with ease, so people who enable KOS on their deed simply end up with no guards. 😉 

 

There is no difference in abuse possibilities between 1 tile perimeter and 5 tile perimeters. 1 tile perimeter will allow 2 tile spacing between deeds and it is still an OPTION not a must. 

 

Edited by Platyna

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2 minutes ago, Platyna said:

You want a highway on your deed you put it on your deed, no more problems with people dropping dirt, decaying bannisters etc. and no need some semi-security (if you make a highway on your perimeter you still need to give people plant and pave perms if they want them to work on it). 

No, you can't terraform the tile corners which belong to the adjacent deeds so you can't make a highway around someone's deeds, unless they give you explicit permission. A lot of existing highway networks was only possible because of the current perimeter setting.

 

3 minutes ago, Platyna said:

With 5 tile perimeters you can do exactly the same, and it is a bannable offence to block access to something you don't own. 

With 5 tile perim, it's 10 tiles between deeds which anyone can fix if you decide to block it. No one can fix it if the gap is only 2 tiles (corners can't be modified, only the center border can in this setting).

 

2 minutes ago, Platyna said:

KOS is mean and I have no idea why it is even allowed on PVE, and you can't have a highway and KOS on, not to mention a player with decent gear and FS 50 can kill off all your guards with ease, so people who enable KOS on their deed simply end up with no guards. 😉 

KoS is a valid and often used system. You can have a highway in your perimeter and KoS enabled. I'd like to invite you to fight 12 guard towers worth of guards and 4 templars in Ankh-Morpork, see if it actually works. Tower guards chase the enemy off-deed too which is a nice bonus.

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Ultima Online introduced tents.  You could put your tent anywhere, and people did.  They walled off dungeon entrances and other spawn points.  UO had to remove tents.  Then UO had houses. You could buy deeds for houses and each type of house had a specific shape and dimensions.  You could then put the house anywhere it would fit in the terrain.  This only somewhat fixed the problem.  On a large open area you could still create a "courtyard" walled in by houses and the only way into the courtyard was through one of the houses.

 

Removing deed perimeter or reducing it below 5 tiles would cause similar problems.

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13 minutes ago, Caduryn said:
36 minutes ago, brattygirl said:

While I would personally like to be able to have two deeds touching each other, Locath brings up a valid point. What would prevent a player from abusing this?

 

Only allow it for Alliances and Alt Characters... would work i guess...

 

That can still easily be abused. It's quite easy to make some alts to make deeds. And from there they can just wall off certain areas of wurm. A way that could get around this is by limiting the amount of deeds that one deed can touch. Say there is an ingame gui that each mayor will have to approve when they want to get rid of the perimeter and have two deeds touching. Then limit this so that your deed can only be touching up to 1 or 2 other deeds. The game will recognize this and prevent any other deeds from touching with the 2 or 3 that are currently combined. This would prevent any area from being entirely blocked off, and also allow some people to make conjoining cities. Or something like that. 

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13 minutes ago, Locath said:

No, you can't terraform the tile corners which belong to the adjacent deeds so you can't make a highway around someone's deeds, unless they give you explicit permission. A lot of existing highway networks was only possible because of the current perimeter setting.

 

With 5 tile perim, it's 10 tiles between deeds which anyone can fix if you decide to block it. No one can fix it if the gap is only 2 tiles (corners can't be modified, only the center border can in this setting).

 

KoS is a valid and often used system. You can have a highway in your perimeter and KoS enabled. I'd like to invite you to fight 12 guard towers worth of guards and 4 templars in Ankh-Morpork, see if it actually works. Tower guards chase the enemy off-deed too which is a nice bonus.

 

With 5 tile perimeters you can terraform but you can't plant markers without specific deed permission and if the markers are on you can't re-pave, replace, destroy etc. So with 5 tile perimeters it is still not possible to make a hwy on someone else's perimeter without their permission, and it was already discussed in a separate topic including screen recordings. 

 

13 minutes ago, Locath said:

With 5 tile perim, it's 10 tiles between deeds which anyone can fix if you decide to block it. No one can fix it if the gap is only 2 tiles (corners can't be modified, only the center border can in this setting).

 

None of this is true. 

 

13 minutes ago, Locath said:

KoS is a valid and often used system. You can have a highway in your perimeter and KoS enabled. I'd like to invite you to fight 12 guard towers worth of guards and 4 templars in Ankh-Morpork, see if it actually works. Tower guards chase the enemy off-deed too which is a nice bonus.

 

No, you can't and even if you could, KOS on highways is not permitted by the game rules. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Platyna

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17 minutes ago, Platyna said:

 

You want a highway on your deed you put it on your deed, no more problems with people dropping dirt, decaying bannisters etc. and no need some semi-security (if you make a highway on your perimeter you still need to give people plant and pave perms if they want them to work on it). 

Which still doesn't answer the problem of being able to Highway if you're NOT one of those deeds. You could make a 2-wide road in that narrow gap (provided slope wasn't a problem), but the Deeds being that close would completely block the ability to lay down Catseyes.

 

I ran into this (as only a minor inconvenience, not a big problem) this weekend, when I realized that there was a deed where I'd been intending to put road. I rerouted the road to go past the deed through the perimeter, but couldn't put down Catseyes in places where the Catseye protection radius would go into the deed - even though there was no paved roads that would actually be protected by it. I don't object to this - it was a learning experience, and I naturally don't want to impinge on the deed-owner's rights without their explicit permission. A few extra paved tiles, a little rerouting and an extra catseye or two, and all was good.

 

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[18:20:38] This is within the perimeter of Marienburg. <-- i don't know who owns this

[18:20:43] You start to pack the ground.

[18:21:00] The dirt is packed and hard now.

[18:21:22] You start to pave the packed dirt with the stone brick.

[18:21:40] You start to plant the range pole.

[18:21:49] You plant the range pole.

 

7 minutes ago, Platyna said:

With 5 tile perimeters you can terraform but you can't plant markers without specific deed permission and if the markers are on you can't re-pave, replace, destroy etc. So with 5 tile perimeters it is still not possible to make a hwy on someone else's perimeter without their permission, and it was already discussed in a separate topic including screen recordings. 

 

7 minutes ago, Platyna said:

None of this is true. 

 

Well, i just did it

 

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1 minute ago, Locath said:

[18:20:38] This is within the perimeter of Marienburg. <-- i don't know who owns this

[18:20:43] You start to pack the ground.

[18:21:00] The dirt is packed and hard now.

[18:21:22] You start to pave the packed dirt with the stone brick.

[18:21:40] You start to plant the range pole.

[18:21:49] You plant the range pole.

 

 

 

Well, i just did it

 

 

No, you didn't, we speak about planting highway markers not range poles. Try it. 

Edited by Platyna

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8 minutes ago, Platyna said:

No, you can't and even if you could, KOS on highways is not permitted by the game rules. 

KoS doesn't apply to perimeter and is allowed even if there is a highway in the perimeter. One of the reasons perimeters exist in the first place. To stop people from locking others in without a safe passage.

 

Again, i wish i could have connected allied deeds to the every last tile even but this opens a whole new box of issues.

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