TheTrickster

Change "compensation" from SB to Marks

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Again, what is says on the tin.

 

When "compensation" is given, it would actually be more useful and more importantly feel more valuable if it was given in the form of Marks rather than straight Sleep Bonus.  Some reasons are;

  1. Realistically, there will always be someone who has too much sleep bonus to receive the full amount of gratis bonus, particularly those using it the way it is stated to be intended.
  2. Not everyone values sleep bonus.  Some of us are not as grind-focused as others, and sleep bonus is merely, well, a bonus.  Nice to have, but not actively being sought.
  3. Marks can be used to buy sleep powder, which can be used to generate sleep bonus, so switching to Marks takes nothing away from those who want the sleep bonus.
  4. Per the previous, conversion from SB hours to Marks is a direct calculation.
  5. Marks give players the choice on how they benefit.  Therefore there is no need to know what people value, as they will choose what they value most.
  6. Giving Marks actually markets the whole loyalty Marks system, exposing players to or reminding them of what they can access through the Marks store.
  7. It would be form of compensation that could be permanent in-game and therefore, again, valued more and also an additional advertisement for the Marks store.

 

An exemplar of my mileage.

3 of my first Marks purchases involved a random affinity, a sword skin and a shield skin.  The affinity actually gave me a direction for my crafting activities, which has generated additional depth of play for me as well as a small cottage-industry marketable skill.  The skins prompted me to make suitable objects out of a preferable alloy and then trade to imp them (and I got free enchants on them!) and they are now as much a part of my toon's appearance as my green armour and floppy hat.  

 

In real life, I would much rather have store credit than a handful of snacks from the impulse bar.

Edited by TheTrickster
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2 minutes ago, warrior said:

-1

Too much of an impact on the economy

 

Sorry, I don't get it.  How?  Please explain just how this would hit the economy in any serious way.  

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I'm not sure I agree with the logic, but I think I understand it - allowing it to be Marks would let people convert them into sleep powder (and other items), which would effectively glut the market very quickly.

 

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I thought that might be the logic, too, but figured it couldn't be simply because even a big global compo like the recently announced one for issues around the launch would still be merely a blip.

 

Think about it, if everyone converts their marks to sleep powder, they have 10 hours worth of sleep powder.  Those who would use it use it, those who would sell it then sell it to, who?  If SB is given there would already be an effect on the SP market would already be in effect simply because everyone has a full SB bar, so switching from SB to SP would already have a minimal additional effect on that market, which is itself an insignificant portion of the overall economy partly because it can't be mailed.  If not everyone converts their marks to sleep, the effect on that bit of market is further diluted and whatever other market would then be effected would also only feel a minute blip.  Skins?  Can't be mailed themselves, but require fiddly back and forth - there is little market for this now, so it would perhaps tickle the economy a little on that front.  Affinities? Can't be traded.  Moonmetal lumps?  Sure, some would sell them but London to a brick others (particularly new players) would find the lumps they have insufficient and would want more.  The very fact that people can pick and choose dilutes any effect - the menu is 18 items long, and several of them are categories (i.e. the moonmetal lump could be any moonmetal, the affinity could be any skill).   

 

The conversion of 10 hours of SB to marks, at 3,000 marks for 1 SP, would be 30,000 marks.  Per player, that would feel significant and many would splurge on the high-cost items they currently figure they won't be able to get in a reasonable time otherwise.  Just like 10hrs of SB gives everyone a boost  - but in the one area of skillgain (although the skills gained are chosen by the player) - whereas this could be like a little shot of adrenaline for the player community and game as a whole; the exact effect you would want to offset a bit of a stumbling start.*  Something practical for players, but also something that gets the player a little bit excited (Oh, I can care for another animal, now! Oh, I can get that Magical Chest!) 

 

 

*not blaming anyone for that, I think the response was beyond the devs' most brainstormy optimistic hopes.

Edited by TheTrickster
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The only thing, is that the marks are meant to reward loyalty. My alts I've prem'd once to keep from being deleted do not count one bit towards loyalty, that I use as storage and nothing else with zero skills, would (instead of getting the 10 hours of SB) suddenly be able to buy me a lot of crap on the marks store if they made that change, trade it to my main toon, and suddenly I would have an over-abundance of things to sell/keep. I have a lot of alts lol. Two priests, my 2 utility toons and 4-5 storage/deed mayor toons I've made over the years. By that formula (30k marks), that would be 270k marks of stuff for just me. And Sleep Powder isn't the only thing you can buy from the marks store that can be sold.

Edited by DemonaNightshade
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19 minutes ago, DemonaNightshade said:

The only thing, is that the marks are meant to reward loyalty. My alts I've prem'd once to keep from being deleted do not count one bit towards loyalty, that I use as storage and nothing else with zero skills, would (instead of getting the 10 hours of SB) suddenly be able to buy me a lot of crap on the marks store if they made that change, trade it to my main toon, and suddenly I would have an over-abundance of things to sell/keep. I have a lot of alts lol. Two priests, my 2 utility toons and 4-5 storage/deed mayor toons I've made over the years. By that formula (30k marks), that would be 270k marks of stuff for just me. And Sleep Powder isn't the only thing you can buy from the marks store that can be sold.

 

Yes, but look at the items that are easily salable and they are mostly stuff that otherwise would only be bought from a trader.  So, the concern is that traders won't make enough silver?

 

Yeah, you could bulk up on moon metal lumps - statistically you could expect 12kg of each moon metal.  Who is currently trading moon metal lumps?  I am guessing, but I think they would be getting bought by older players who want to craft sellable merch with them.  

 

As I pointed out, I am aware that stuff other than powders can be sold, which is kind of my point.  If everybody got the same thing and tried to sell it, that is the worst-case scenario regarding market effect, and it wouldn't have much of a negative effect, and its effect would not last long.  Every other scenario is of diluted and therefore lesser effect.

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for 30,000 marks + 9000 you get from 8E premium + 10s (3000 marks) you can buy a LMC worth 40s on trader. Without the 10s can buy a small chest. Long term reward bonuses like +1 care for or +1 max SB are also in range. 30,000 marks is hardly equivalent to 10hr SB that can't be traded.

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21 hours ago, TheTrickster said:
  • Not everyone values sleep bonus.  Some of us are not as grind-focused as others, and sleep bonus is merely, well, a bonus.  Nice to have, but not actively being sought.
  • Marks can be used to buy sleep powder, which can be used to generate sleep bonus, so switching to Marks takes nothing away from those who want the sleep bonus.
  • Per the previous, conversion from SB hours to Marks is a direct calculation.

 

good gods, I really really like this. 
I didn't even know I wanted this until you brought it up! +1, yes please.

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15 hours ago, Kelody said:

for 30,000 marks + 9000 you get from 8E premium + 10s (3000 marks) you can buy a LMC worth 40s on trader. Without the 10s can buy a small chest. Long term reward bonuses like +1 care for or +1 max SB are also in range. 30,000 marks is hardly equivalent to 10hr SB that can't be traded.

 

Yes, that's the beauty of it.  30,000 marks is the store cost of 10hrs SB worth of powders but to players is much more valuable.

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4 hours ago, Amata said:

I didn't even know I wanted this until you brought it up! +1, yes please.

 

Well, frankly it wasn't my idea in the first place, but this is exactly how I reacted when it was mentioned.

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+1 to this idea. I don't use Sleep bonus, so whenever the devs screw up enough that they feel the need to compensate us for that screw up, I end up only getting screwed, not compensated for the screwing. I wanna get paid!

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Only premium players should get marks, non-prem could just get SB. As it is, you can't even access the marks store unless you're prem, and marks themselves aren't transferable, so not able to be consolidated from alts. Thus, I don't think that would be a huge issue.  As for the economy... well, 1) maybe the economy shouldn't be based so heavily around sleep powders; and 2) many of the marks would be spent on other items. Compensation doesn't happen often enough that it should make a significant impact on the economy if it was given in marks.

 

What if it were a choice given at a settlement token? Choose 10 hours SB or 10k marks, or something to that effect? 

 

Edited by Schiann
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11 minutes ago, Schiann said:

What if it were a choice given at a settlement token? Choose 10 hours SB or 10k marks, or something to that effect?

 

Why would anyone choose the SB, if they had the flexibility of the Marks that could still given them the SB if that's what they wanted (per TheTrickster's version)? It's a no-brainer - options are always better than no options, all else being equal.

 

But if it were unequal - if your suggestion were the actual offer, and you can have 10 hours of SB, or only 3 hours if you chose the marks, then people who actually want the SB would take that, and people who wanted other things and/or flexibility would take the "loss" of taking the 10k marks.

 

That's a valid comparison, and a valid offer. How balanced it is, that's a different story... and that would rely on devs trying it, and seeing how it plays out, and which one gets chosen more.

 

16 minutes ago, Schiann said:

Only premium players should get marks, non-prem could just get SB. As it is, you can't even access the marks store unless you're prem, and marks themselves aren't transferable, so not able to be consolidated from alts. Thus, I don't think that would be a huge issue.  As for the economy... well, 1) maybe the economy shouldn't be based so heavily around sleep powders; and 2) many of the marks would be spent on other items. Compensation doesn't happen often enough that it should make a significant impact on the economy if it was given in marks.

 

I agree with this - free mule accounts shouldn't be a way for players to vastly enrich their main. Whatever free accounts get should be tied to them and not tradable. Paid, currently-active accounts should get the more flexible option. So if someone wants 20 accounts' worth of compensation windfall, they will have to have been paying for 20 accounts.

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considering recent events,   10h SB would be 30,000 marks.

 

1. I think even F2P get the SB now. So the alt problem would be significant as folks would stack up the alts so they could get things like small magic chest and rod of transmutation for free.

 

2. 30k marks seems excessive for every single player. And especially so for every single F2P as many are alts.

 

3. I'd rather see a choice of more premium time if you've bought premium at least once or x-number of hours of SB.

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3 hours ago, Ogare said:

considering recent events,   10h SB would be 30,000 marks.

 

1. I think even F2P get the SB now. So the alt problem would be significant as folks would stack up the alts so they could get things like small magic chest and rod of transmutation for free.

 

2. 30k marks seems excessive for every single player. And especially so for every single F2P as many are alts.

 

3. I'd rather see a choice of more premium time if you've bought premium at least once or x-number of hours of SB.

 

 

1.  I see what you are saying, but don't see how it adds up to a problem.

 

2.  30k marks is exactly the value of 10hrs of SB.  If it seems like a lot then that is because marks actually have low value (like frequent flyer points).

 

3. You want a choice, but want the choice limited to what you would choose.  You have endorsed the paradigm of compensation being player-choice as to  how the player benefits, at least.  I am a bit reluctant to get too much into "X for the premiumed-once and y for the never-premiumed" because it makes the giving of compensation overly complicated and therefore would likely not be considered at all.

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I understand that compensation will shutdown the SP price

Compensate with Marks instead will lower much more stuff than simply the SP.

 

Sorry man but it's  -1 for me

Edited by Baenre
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I am glad you like the Marks system and are, I assume, making good use of it.

I am sorry that you do not feel that 10 hours sleep bonus is an appropriate compensation, and for you it does not hold the same value.

 

Currently the marks are only awarded to premium players.  Awarding marks to FTP players would be a first for Wurm, it might sit uncomfortably for some, but is not impossible. 

 

I think the recipients would fall into several 'camps',

  • those that would use the marks for themselves
  • those that would cash them in and sell off the items for profit
  • those that just wouldn't use them at all (me!)

I think your system would offer a lot more flexibility than the current system, which offers nothing if a player's SB is maxed out already.

 

My only concern is that 30,000 marks is ALOT of marks, especially when viewed alongside how long in time it would usually take to accrue them normally.

 

Remember, that when the marks system first came in, players that had been playing 10 years or more were still capped at something like 42,000 to start off.  To see FTP players getting 30,000 marks, might not sit easily with players that have paid in premium for years to build up their total.  I'm not saying it's wrong to do it, but I think it would risk rendering the marks 'loyalty system' (because that's what it was intended to be), pointless or at least off target.

 

I liked Schiann's idea of a separate option box at the token.  Options don't have to include marks if the devs want to keep them just for loyalty only, but her idea might be a way to offer some more choices for people who don't need Sleep Bonus.

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On 10/2/2020 at 8:27 PM, Schiann said:

Only premium players should get marks, non-prem could just get SB. As it is, you can't even access the marks store unless you're prem, and marks themselves aren't transferable, so not able to be consolidated from alts. Thus, I don't think that would be a huge issue.  As for the economy... well, 1) maybe the economy shouldn't be based so heavily around sleep powders; and 2) many of the marks would be spent on other items. Compensation doesn't happen often enough that it should make a significant impact on the economy if it was given in marks.

 

What if it were a choice given at a settlement token? Choose 10 hours SB or 10k marks, or something to that effect? 

 

Sounds very fair and reasonable to me.  10 hrs sleep bonus helps a lot, but there have been many times I was not able to take advantage of a "compensation" event because I simply could not drain my sleep bonus ahead of time.  It was irritating, but I lived with it without complaining.  An option to chose some marks in place of sleep bonus would have been nice.

In lieu of giving out marks, if a player were to be able to choose at the token when they wanted to receive their sleep bonus compensation, that would be nice as well.

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23 minutes ago, Thalius said:

when they wanted to receive their sleep bonus compensation

 

Yes I like this Thalius. Being able to claim the sleep bonus at a more convenient time, would be an ideal solution.

 

Edited by Muse

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+1

Providing marks instead of plain SB is a great idea.

People value sleep bonus in different ways, and wih marks there is far more to choose from.

Concerning the worries around people being able to crash the market with SB:

 

I did do a suggestion on untradable sleeping bonus here:

 

But perhaps the better question to ask is if the loyality shop should provide sleeping powder in the first place.

Have the mark shop give straight up sleep bonus instead. That will prevent any market dumping.

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if the only counter argument is "muh economy" that's pretty sad lol

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1 hour ago, thunderdagger said:

-1   economy would take hit 

 

Yes it would.  The way a battleship takes a hit from a golfball.

 

Maybe less.

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5 hours ago, Baenre said:

I understand that compensation will shutdown the SP price

Compensate with Marks instead will lower much more stuff than simply the SP.

 

Sorry man but it's  -1 for me

 

 

The effect is not cumulative.  Shutdown is an extreme exaggeration.  It may cause a slight, short dip.  The effect on SP price will be less because some portion will go to other stuff.  The effect on other stuff will be very little because it is only some portion. Some of it will go to buy stuff that currently can only be bought from traders at a fixed price, so at worst it provides some stuff in-game for less cost than directly from a trader.  Some of it is for stuff that has no effective market, so would boost the economy.

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