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TheTrickster

Change "compensation" from SB to Marks

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On 10/3/2020 at 11:27 AM, Schiann said:

Only premium players should get marks, non-prem could just get SB. As it is, you can't even access the marks store unless you're prem, and marks themselves aren't transferable, so not able to be consolidated from alts. Thus, I don't think that would be a huge issue.  As for the economy... well, 1) maybe the economy shouldn't be based so heavily around sleep powders; and 2) many of the marks would be spent on other items. Compensation doesn't happen often enough that it should make a significant impact on the economy if it was given in marks.

 

What if it were a choice given at a settlement token? Choose 10 hours SB or 10k marks, or something to that effect? 

 

Ah, here is the thing.  Since you can only access the marks store if you are premium, there is no harm in giving marks to accounts that are not currently premium.  In paying compensation, the company is prompting non-premium players to go premium and thus generating income.  I had thought that maybe never been premium accounts could be left off and just get SB, but again a) they may well not use the SB and b) it could prompt them to go premium and generate cashflow.

 

I am thinking of the current issues around lack of info and the number of people who have spoken of letting their premium lapse.  If, hypothetically, marks were given as some kind of compensation for the company dropping the ball on keeping us informed of real world issues affecting comms, then those who felt the problem most would receive none of the comp.  Doesn't seem fair.  Likewise, if these people have stopped playing for a bit, their SB is likely already full, so would receive none of the comp if it was SB, so still unfair.

 

Oh... bump.  😄

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marks can be monetized - affects economy

sb.. you can grind skills.. but that is tied to your effort to monetize that and effort to sell w/e you produce or sell as service

 

marks(if used) affect the game more than sb...

in the end it's up to ccab what is ok and not, and what's reasonable based on the situation, occurrence etc..

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Let people choose in their profile settings whether they would prefer to receive sleep bonus or Marks.

 

Let players receive less, if they chose Marks, than enough to buy the equivalent amount of sleep powder. In this way the economy can remain balanced.

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What's the value? 

 

1-2k marks doesn't really get much. 

 

Can't see it being the same value as a months worth of premium marks. 

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15 hours ago, Finnn said:

marks can be monetized - affects economy

sb.. you can grind skills.. but that is tied to your effort to monetize that and effort to sell w/e you produce or sell as service

 

marks(if used) affect the game more than sb...

in the end it's up to ccab what is ok and not, and what's reasonable based on the situation, occurrence etc..

"Affects economy" is not really an argument for or against.  Affects it how?  Positively/negatively?  Desirably/un?

 

Any effect would be limited in cope and in duration, a little bit of a cash grab for those who choose to sell the stuff they buy from the marks store, but as compensation is (hopefully) a rare occurrence and marks store purchases are a) mostly not available elsewhere so do not have a major market or b) are already available via traders and merchants at a fixed price it is hard to argue for any significant economic impact over time.

 

 

5 hours ago, Sheffie said:

Let people choose in their profile settings whether they would prefer to receive sleep bonus or Marks.

 

Let players receive less, if they chose Marks, than enough to buy the equivalent amount of sleep powder. In this way the economy can remain balanced.

 

Why less?  We have an exchange rate - simply because there are items available for X marks in the marks store or Y silver from a trader/merchant.  There is no need to adjust beyond that.  There would be no imbalance worth balancing.

 

2 minutes ago, Archaed said:

What's the value? 

 

1-2k marks doesn't really get much. 

 

Can't see it being the same value as a months worth of premium marks. 

 

Not sure if that is directed at the main suggestion itself or Sheffie's suggested tweak.  I haven't seen a convincing argument as to why it should be anything other than the pre-existing effective exchange rate.

 

Currently compensation is given as SB.  SP has a direct SB value AND a direct silver value AND a direct marks value.  Working out how many marks to give should be simple from that.  Any other than direct calculation disadvantages someone which defeats the point of this suggestions, which is to address the inherent disadvantages in SB as compensation.

 

 

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1 hour ago, TheTrickster said:

Not sure if that is directed at the main suggestion itself or Sheffie's suggested tweak.  I haven't seen a convincing argument as to why it should be anything other than the pre-existing effective exchange rate.

 

Currently compensation is given as SB.  SP has a direct SB value AND a direct silver value AND a direct marks value.  Working out how many marks to give should be simple from that.  Any other than direct calculation disadvantages someone which defeats the point of this suggestions, which is to address the inherent disadvantages in SB as compensation.

 

 

But sleep bonus is not the same as sleep powder, so the value isn't 1:1

 

But say we take it at that, you then suggest that 5 hours compensation = 5 hours sb, meaning 5x3000 points. this would mean that a few restarts due to a bumpy update are worth 5 months worth of premium time purchased? 

 

This is where this all falls flat, because marks are NOT balanced around anything other than the monthly value of 3k points, with a 50% bonus if you purchase from the shop. 

 

Attempts to balance it in any other way would be quite frankly dissatisfying for everyone. 

Edited by Archaed
Maths is hard

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4 hours ago, Archaed said:

But sleep bonus is not the same as sleep powder, so the value isn't 1:1

But it does have a fixed ratio and fixed costs so it is the unit to use for calculation.   Marks are not fixed to premium purchase at all, the number marks you get for various purchase has no bearing at all on their value.

 

15,000 marks may well be the amount that you get from 5 months of premium time, but like most loyalty points they are really very low value - so 15,000 marks are NOT the equivalent of 5 months of premium time.  In fact, the number of marks you get for premium purchase is variable; depending on how you purchase your prem you could get 2k, 3k or 4.5k.  Buy premium sufficiently in advance and you can get an additional 3k or 6k.  They just happen to be what the company gives you as a gratuity and their value cannot be based on premium purch at all.  Their value is their purchasing power.   They can purchase 1 SP per 3,000 points (the same SP costs 3 silver, so you have a direct value ratio of marks to silver at 1000:1, although when you purchase silver you get a gratuity of 20 marks per silver).   All attempts to claim some kind of overpowered value of marks fall flat the moment someone tries to convert them and it takes 3,000 of them to get the equivalent of 1hr sleep bonus.  

 

Marks are not transferrable.

 

It seems a bit silly to worry about "balance" and "economy" for something that will rarely happen and when it does would have no lasting impact on balance or the economy.

 

 

Edited by TheTrickster
oops

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Even if this does not get implemented for "economy balancing reasons", can we at least get our SB bonus in 10 sleep powders instead of 10 hours? Having my SB capped at 6 h max, usually means I only end up burning half of it on average with my playtime. I very rarely get to 0 SB these days due to work and stuff.

 

When that 10 H SB bonus kicks in I basically lose 7 h of potential sleep bonus. I'd rather have sleep powders to use whenever I want to plan a grinding session instead of potentially losing SB over time because I don't end up burning SB to zero, specially when you max out CCFP values and SB degrades slower.

 

If you really want to make it fair, make those 10 SB sp's non tradeable so they won't affect the ingame economy. 

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It's 5 hours compensation, with the cap being at 10 hours. 

 

Sometimes double has been given, but it's not the norm.

Edited by Archaed

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38 minutes ago, Archaed said:

It's 5 hours compensation, with the cap being at 10 hours. 

 

My mistake, it's 5 hours yeah. I'm not sure if we ever got 10 full hours. In any case the idea has some merit since for those of us that can mainly play on the weekend and burn our SB then , any extra added on top tends to get lost. 

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It's use it or lose it situation.

 

If we do need something... it's being able to pickup sb up to 10h cap when there's a global cast.. instead of stressing over burning sb... to open a slot of 5hours to go pick the global cast 5h sb only once that happens.. or oh well minimizing the 'lost' benefit is also viable at times when you just didn't have enough time to burn enough sb.

 

 

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If people get Marks instead of sleep bonus, won't people want to buy more sleep powder? After all, they are getting 5 hours less sleep bonus.

 

This is the basis for the argument that it won't destroy the economy. You're adding Marks, and removing an equivalent amount of sleep bonus. The net change is zero.

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8 hours ago, Sheffie said:

If people get Marks instead of sleep bonus, won't people want to buy more sleep powder? After all, they are getting 5 hours less sleep bonus.

 

This is the basis for the argument that it won't destroy the economy. You're adding Marks, and removing an equivalent amount of sleep bonus. The net change is zero.

What's the marks value for 5 hours of inconvenience? 

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10 minutes ago, Archaed said:

What's the marks value for 5 hours of inconvenience? 

 

How about pleasing both worlds? 

 

When a "reward" is given to players say due to server issues, each player can go to a token, select an option "Rewards" and a popup box appears " I want 5 hrs of SB" OR " I Want 10 000 marks". 

 

That better? 

 

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On 10/6/2020 at 11:30 PM, Oblivionnreaver said:

if the only counter argument is "muh economy" that's pretty sad lol

 

Threads like this always remind me of a scene from Runaway Jury: A juror states their opinion that the prosecution doesn't deserve to win because they've been through worse and they never sued anyone. Basically, that no-one ever deserves compensation that can be measured in fiscal wealth - and there's certainly no other form of compensation available - because that is insulting to everyone who has to do without 'handouts'.

 

I've never come across a scenario in human culture that ever equated to 'this is fair to everyone'. Does that mean that because something isn't fair to everyone - for abstract example, possession of youth, beauty, health, intelligence, freedom - that these things should be eradicated from the world as unjust? Because that always struck me as the antagonist's premise in any plot-arc, and the underlying logic of wrath as an emotional premise.

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That's so far from OP .. that it's questionable if you wrote it at the right place..

 

As for the quote - he's just happy to get free 10k marks cheaper to roll 1 random affinity vs 5s sb where they can be easily bought in bulk for 1s ea or below that price.., making the marks way more desirable for most players, only users to keep sb vs marks will be small fishes not spending much.. to them the sb will be more, while marks will be way better for these spending more and more often because the value in marks is way better.

 

You can 'read' a lot between the lines from what people type or skip 'noticing'.

 

IMO keep just the sb .. and maybe give some random box to open or w/e random collectable that is 'cool' but irrelevant.

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- 1 

As Demona and ironically the OP pointed out it would make the rare loyalty items and moon-metals much more common glutting the market in one of the few restricted areas left. 

Edited by Bachus
autocorrect made it incorrect

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3 hours ago, Bachus said:

- 1 

As Demona and ironically the OP pointed out it would make the rare loyalty items and moon-metals much more common glutting the market in one of the few restricted areas left. 

And how often do you think this will be occurring in order for it to glut the market?   I went looking way back when I posted the suggestions, and again more recently.  "Market" is an extreme exaggeration of the trade in moon-metals.  It's about as active as the trade in jackal skins.  Who is trading in moon metals sufficiently to call it a market?

 

EDIT:  The fact is, giving SB as compensation has not created a problem for the SP "market" so there doesn't seem to be any logical support for this whole "it would affect the market" reaction.

 

 

Edited by TheTrickster

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I'am not tracking how often we get SB as a compensation but I think it was like 1-2 times a year tops? Sometimes maybe even less.

 

So even if we get Marks in exchange, I doubt it would affect any market significantly.

Edited by Wilczan
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9 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

And how often do you think this will be occurring in order for it to glut the market?   I went looking way back when I posted the suggestions, and again more recently.  "Market" is an extreme exaggeration of the trade in moon-metals.  It's about as active as the trade in jackal skins.  Who is trading in moon metals sufficiently to call it a market?

 

EDIT:  The fact is, giving SB as compensation has not created a problem for the SP "market" so there doesn't seem to be any logical support for this whole "it would affect the market" reaction.

 

 

Marks digs deep into variety of other 'markets' and interests and powers to obtain.. while people that do not even use sleep bonus just let it go to waste by not using theirs to get the new extra etc.. 

If such and other +all alts get passively marks... that accumulates with time, opens doors and windows, roofs even...

 

Why do you want marks and 10-15k marks at that.. ?

 

 --edit 

2 hours ago, Wilczan said:

I'am not tracking how often we get SB as a compensation but I think it was like 1-2 times a year tops? Sometimes maybe even less.

 

So even if we get Marks in exchange, I doubt it would affect any market significantly.

In the case of suggested 10k marks as alternative.. free affinity or stuff.. vs way less given for a prem month

ALTS-ALTS-EVERYWHERE.jpg

Edited by Finnn

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On 8/11/2021 at 11:54 AM, Finnn said:

That's so far from OP .. that it's questionable if you wrote it at the right place..

I was commenting on some of the comments AFTER the OP, not the OP itself - which I tried and apparently failed to indicate - which seem to ME to miss the point of the suggestion.

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