Some logic in tool mechanics - like for like

[TheTrickster 770]

I get that in a game certain mechanics are arbitrary but there are some glaring inconsistencies in some crafting tools/objects.  

 

Spindle and Spinning Wheel:

The spindle/cotton and spinning wheel/wool demarcation is to my mind silly.  The same natural fibres can be spun on both, and in fact a spindle is also a component of a spinning wheel (IRL).  It is made more silly by the fact that someone with the means to farm a goodly amount of cotton would likely have used a wheel, whereas even nomads with livestock used spindles for animal hair yarn.  I think either tool should be usable with either resource, but the spinning wheel should produce more/faster and maybe even better quality.  Note that both string of cloth and wool yarn can be used in the same floor loom.

 

EDIT:  New section

Floor Loom and [New]Hand Loom (or backstrap loom, or some other basic loom).

Like the spindle and spinning wheel for a step up in production volume and QL, same for looms.  A basic loom produces square pieces of cloth at a slower pace and lower/more variable quality while a floor loom produces at a faster pace and better/more consistent quality.

(end new section)

 

Large Anvil and Small Anvil:

There are a couple of things here that have always bugged me a bit.  Firstly is the method of use - a large anvil can ONLY be used while on the floor (or some other object) while the small anvil can ONLY be use in-hand.  It's an ANVIL!  You never hit anything with the anvil (unless you are the roadrunner or Wile E. Coyote).  Both anvils should be on-the-ground use only.  Secondly is the fact that small and large anvils are treated more like fine and coarse anvils, which just isn't so.  The large anvil is depicted like a typical blacksmith's anvil, capable of both coarse and fine work.  The small anvil should really be a BASIC anvil, able to produce some basic materials (its graphic is very much a "blunt object" style) while the Large Anvil should be able to make pretty much any smithied product.  What about fine jewelry, I hear you ask.  "What about fine jewelry?".  I am glad you asked.  The large anvil appears in inventory like it has storage capacity or a mount point.  That right there could be a hardy hole, for placing a hardy-tool for jewelry or some other specific sub-skill, or tools for nail and rivet making etc.  Apply some QL or time penalty for the Large Anvil making stull that could be made with the small anvil (to reflect that more care must be taken).   That way the small anvil is still useful (especially for beginners and especially for travelling) but a Large Anvil is itself the basis of good smithy.  Actually, if the small could be used on the ground, it wouldn't matter so much if the large can make that stuff, as you can lay out your smithy with both and use them as needed.

 

Non-rackable tools:

A bit of a bugbear for me because I like to keep my materials in one place, tools in one place and other objects in one place so I don't have to go looking for them.  Most tools can be racked, but some, for example the file and the grooming brush cannot, so have to be stored in a chest or something.  I got so sick of trying to remember which large chest has them that I have made multiples and scattered them into several chests just to shorten the search.  Realistically, the rack has pegs so anything too small to hang across two pegs would have either a hole or a lanyard so could be hung on the rack.  I wouldn't even mind adding a couple of hooks to the rack and be done with it, but a tool rack (okay, weapon rack, but it has more tools than weapons) should be able to hold pretty much any tool that can be carried in inventory.

 

Knives:

I don't think there is any chance of getting this fixed, but a knife is a knife.  Heck even a sword can function as a knife.  I like that the butchering knife gives better butchering results than using a shovel (or, <shudder> butchering with a pickaxe).  The same should apply for other blades, though.  Chopping veges, best done with the cutlery knife, but why couldn't a hatchet chop a head of cabbage?  Why couldn't a [poor quality] shaft be carved with a short sword?  Cutting sprouts should be entirely possible with any sharp blade, and particularly should be possible with the carving knife.

 

The Shovel:

It's not.  It's a spade.  You don't dig with a shovel, you shovel with it.  You can shovel with a spade, but digging with a shovel is almost impossible. (And for those who want to say a shovel has a point and a spade is flat - buy a pack of cards).  English only dies if we let it.

Edited November 12, 2020 by TheTrickster
oops, missed a bit

[armyskin 918]

Take notes. This is a suggestion that improves the game. +1

[TheTrickster 770]

On 10/1/2020 at 3:16 AM, armyskin said:

Take notes. This is a suggestion that improves the game. +1

Thank you for the kind words.  Also, that's a nice spade your guy is holding  

Edited October 2, 2020 by TheTrickster

[Darnok 55]

On 9/30/2020 at 7:06 AM, TheTrickster said:

I get that in a game certain mechanics are arbitrary but there are some glaring inconsistencies in some crafting tools/objects.  

 

Spindle and Spinning Wheel:

The spindle/cotton and spinning wheel/wool demarcation is to my mind silly.  The same natural fibres can be spun on both, and in fact a spindle is also a component of a spinning wheel (IRL).  It is made more silly by the fact that someone with the means to farm a goodly amount of cotton would likely have used a wheel, whereas even nomads with livestock used spindles for animal hair yarn.  I think either tool should be usable with either resource, but the spinning wheel should produce more/faster and maybe even better quality.  Note that both string of cloth and wool yarn can be used in the same floor loom.

 

So one of these items might as well be removed.

 

On 9/30/2020 at 7:06 AM, TheTrickster said:

Large Anvil and Small Anvil:

There are a couple of things here that have always bugged me a bit.  Firstly is the method of use - a large anvil can ONLY be used while on the floor (or some other object) while the small anvil can ONLY be use in-hand.  It's an ANVIL!  You never hit anything with the anvil.  Both anvils should be on-the-ground use only.  Secondly is the fact that small and large anvils are treated more like fine and coarse anvils, which just isn't so.  The large anvil is depicted like a typical blacksmith's anvil, capable of both coarse and fine work.  The small anvil should really be a BASIC anvil, able to produce some basic materials (its graphic is very much a "blunt object" style) while the Large Anvil should be able to make pretty much any smithied product.  What about fine jewelry, I hear you ask.  "What about fine jewelry?".  I am glad you asked.  The large anvil appears in inventory like it has storage capacity or a mount point.  That right there could be a hardy hole, for placing a hardy-tool for jewelry or some other specific sub-skill, or tools for nail and rivet making etc.  Apply some QL or time penalty for the Large Anvil making stull that could be made with the small anvil (to reflect that more care must be taken).   That way the small anvil is still useful (especially for beginners and especially for travelling) but a Large Anvil is itself the basis of good smithy.  Actually, if the small could be used on the ground, it wouldn't matter so much if the large can make that stuff, as you can lay out your smithy with both and use them as needed.

 

As above

 

 

[Amata 375]

On 9/30/2020 at 1:06 AM, TheTrickster said:

I get that in a game certain mechanics are arbitrary but there are some glaring inconsistencies in some crafting tools/objects.  

 

Spindle and Spinning Wheel:

...  I think either tool should be usable with either resource, but the spinning wheel should produce more/faster and maybe even better quality.  Note that both string of cloth and wool yarn can be used in the same floor loom.

 

Large Anvil and Small Anvil:

... The small anvil should really be a BASIC anvil, able to produce some basic materials (its graphic is very much a "blunt object" style) while the Large Anvil should be able to make pretty much any smithied product.  ... Actually, if the small could be used on the ground, it wouldn't matter so much if the large can make that stuff, as you can lay out your smithy with both and use them as needed.

 

Non-rackable tools:

... Realistically, the rack has pegs so anything too small to hang across two pegs would have either a hole or a lanyard so could be hung on the rack.  I wouldn't even mind adding a couple of hooks to the rack and be done with it, but a tool rack (okay, weapon rack, but it has more tools than weapons) should be able to hold pretty much any tool that can be carried in inventory.

 

Knives:

I don't think there is any chance of getting this fixed, but a knife is a knife.  Heck even a sword can function as a knife.  I like that the butchering knife gives better butchering results than using a shovel (or, <shudder> butchering with a pickaxe).  The same should apply for other blades, though.  Chopping veges, best done with the cutlery knife, but why couldn't a hatchet chop a head of cabbage?  Why couldn't a [poor quality] shaft be carved with a short sword?

 

The Shovel:

It's not.  It's a spade.  You don't dig with a shovel, you shovel with it.  You can shovel with a spade, but digging with a shovel is almost impossible. (And for those who want to say a shovel has a point and a spade is flat - buy a pack of cards).  English only dies if we let it.

 

 

  I LOVE YOU AND ALL YOUR BRAIN THOUGHTS  

Right now, I've got sheep who give me tons and tons of wool.... but I just haven't gotten my skills up enough to construct my own spinning wheel. Got a spindle, able to cotton just fine thnx - but wool? Just collecting dust right now. Spindles are the way everyone starts out learning to spin a substance into a thread. Any substance! I am so, so, so supportive of a spinning wheel being implemented as "spindle+" for bulk jobs, or higher QL results. 

 

Anvils: on the ground. Duh. Sort that sht out. 

 

I really would like a tool rack now, plz. TOOL RACKS. (would be great if they were able to display tools when racked??)

 

Knives... YES. 
Honestly, the human incisor has enough of an edge to bite through leather. Surely anything with an actual blade can cut. Use game mechanics like amount of resources produced,  chance of variety of resources produced, speed of action, and QL of resources produced as metrics to indicate which type of cutting tool works "best" for different situations~! 

Shovels vs Spades.... PRECISE LANGUAGE MATTERS!!!
If you don't say what you mean, how can you expect others to understand the meaning of what you say??

Many (modern?) people believe the best rule of thumb to discern shovel from spade is to look at the shape of the blade. This is the "square blade is spade / pointed blade is shovel" adage comes from.  

The better way to remember which is which is to recall that form follows function! A spade, regardless of overall shape, will be a flat or nearly-flat blade - like your incisors, the narrow edge used for cutting is the part that matters. On the other hand, a shovel is used for scooping up debris and shoveling it out of the way - so no matter how the blade is shaped around the edge, the form of the blade will be a spoon or a bowl. 

Another way to remember is to think of a trowel and then super size it. A planter's trowel is a multipurpose tool, but not typically expected to do any shoveling that could not also be easily done by hand - more like scooping than actual shoveling - hence the modern slightly-scoop shape. And yet, a trowel is primarily needed to cut through sod, topsoil, and some amount of small sized roots. In a word: digging. Check out this image of an old Dutch style planter's trowel - you will instantly understand why the digging tool is called a "spade." 

 

 

(PS - fun information regarding human's biting and chewing as measured by a dentist in 1911)

Edited October 1, 2020 by Amata
formatting

[TheTrickster 770]

10 hours ago, Darnok said:

 

So one of these items might as well be removed.

 

 

As above

 

 

 

No, I don't think that removing good tools is the answer.  In both cases, having the two both adds depth to the game and gives an entry-level tool to get started.   Many of us are not min-maxing but are playing.   Like any good work of fiction, consistency and internal logic does matter, though.  I am not trying to merely shorten the path from resource to saleable object.  I am trying to make the playing of the game more enjoyable by making some bits more intuitive and more consistent.  In fact, I didn't say so, but I think we should also have an entry-level loom.  The floor loom is actually pretty advanced.  Hand looms, back-strap looms, and several other more basic looms were and even are much more common in cottage industry. 

[Katrat 662]

6 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

 

No, I don't think that removing good tools is the answer.  In both cases, having the two both adds depth to the game and gives an entry-level tool to get started.   Many of us are not min-maxing but are playing.   Like any good work of fiction, consistency and internal logic does matter, though.  I am not trying to merely shorten the path from resource to saleable object.  I am trying to make the playing of the game more enjoyable by making some bits more intuitive and more consistent.  In fact, I didn't say so, but I think we should also have an entry-level loom.  The floor loom is actually pretty advanced.  Hand looms, back-strap looms, and several other more basic looms were and even are much more common in cottage industry. 

IRL Both produce the same items just at different rates. A floor loom will produce material much faster than a hand loom. Same for spindle verses spinning wheel. The spinning wheel produces more thread/yarn at a faster rate. Floor looms and spinning wheels also take a little more knowledge to work and build.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Katrat

[TheTrickster 770]

8 hours ago, Amata said:

I really would like a tool rack now, plz. TOOL RACKS. (would be great if they were able to display tools when racked??)

 

Yes.  Like this.

 

 

 

We also have hooks that currently only have 1 use, as an intermediate resource (i.e. they are a component of tool belts and nothing else).  It would be uber-cool to be able to attach hooks to stuff (e.g. walls, mostly) and which would function as a container for ONE thing and when loaded display the thing.  You could hang your backpacks and satchels on the wall, make armour/weapon displays, that sort of thing.

[Amata 375]

18 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

It would be uber-cool to be able to attach hooks to stuff (e.g. walls, mostly) and which would function as a container for ONE thing and when loaded display the thing.  You could hang your backpacks and satchels on the wall, make armour/weapon displays, that sort of thing.

 

Please stop having ideas that I love. It is making my brain explode. 

[TheTrickster 770]

I have edited into the OP the notion of two levels of loom.

 

Something I didn't mention, but would love to see implemented across the board is this 2 level of "machines" for makers (at least 2 levels, sometimes more).  A rope tool, and a large rope-makers jig.  The mortar/pestle and the grindstone should work this way (and a big horse-driven millstone should be the next level up again).  Fletching can be by hand, or with a (new) fletching jig for faster/better arrows.

 

Here is the kicker with all this, though.  While the higher level machines produce more faster and better in general - i.e. a consistent quality, it is with the 1st level, "hand made" processes where there is a) a better chance for rares and b) a skill-based variation in QL and therefore chance of maxed QL.  This reflects the time and care taken in the crafting by hand. E.G. if you have 90 fletching skill, and have 90ql shafts and heads, using a fletching jig produce more items in the same time, and give a consistent QL output some bit less than 90 (purely hypothetically, call it 75).  You won't achieve 90ql arrows, but you won't have duds either and can produce LOTS in little time and little cost in actions/stamina/fatigue (e.g. 1 action could produce 3 or more arrows, like harvesting a field does with the produce).  If you want top QL arrows, AND a boost to rare chances, then you make it by hand. 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2020 by TheTrickster

[Amata 375]

On 10/19/2020 at 1:33 AM, TheTrickster said:

higher level machines produce more faster and better in general - i.e. a consistent quality, it is with the 1st level, "hand made" processes where there is a) a better chance for rares and b) a skill-based variation in QL and therefore chance of maxed QL

 

I think this might have some very interesting effects on the Wurm market economy... would we see an explosion of cheaper, bulk type items, of middle-ish QL alongside a small increase in price for bespoke / handmade items of higher QL and rarity? I would love to find out!! 

 

On 10/19/2020 at 1:33 AM, TheTrickster said:

a big horse-driven millstone should be the next level up again

 

And/or wind or water driven mills? Windmills and waterwheels would add so much fabulousness to the Wurm landscape! Also, I could be a miller's wife and live at the village mill by the river. #fantasylife 

[TheTrickster 770]

Bump, and add a bit about cutting sprouts.

[polarbear 182]

On 9/30/2020 at 12:06 AM, TheTrickster said:

The Shovel:

It's not.  It's a spade.  You don't dig with a shovel, you shovel with it.  You can shovel with a spade, but digging with a shovel is almost impossible. (And for those who want to say a shovel has a point and a spade is flat - buy a pack of cards).  English only dies if we let it.

Just saying:

https://www.lowes.com/pd/CRAFTSMAN-55-in-Wood-Long-handle-Digging-Shovel/1000604755

 

keyword: Digging Shovel.

lmao

Edited November 13, 2020 by polarbear

[TheTrickster 770]

19 hours ago, polarbear said:

Just saying:

https://www.lowes.com/pd/CRAFTSMAN-55-in-Wood-Long-handle-Digging-Shovel/1000604755

 

keyword: Digging Shovel.

lmao

 

"Bunnings" here (our Aussie analog of Lowes) also has a "digging shovel" for sale.  Makes me shudder.  From a technical standpoint, it is a spade with some minor shovel characteristics.  I have one, and it is poor at shovelling (too small, too thick, not deep enough).  I have a long-handled wide spade that is better at shovelling.  A spade has a blade, a shovel has a mouth; one digs and the other scoops.

 

Using Lowes or Bunnings to define tool names is like relying on Macdonald's to define "nutritious".   

 

Like I said, English only dies if we let it. 

Edited November 14, 2020 by TheTrickster

[Amata 375]

17 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

From a technical standpoint, it is a spade with some minor shovel characteristics

 

That monstrosity is a mash-up of spade and shovel characteristics, but not enough of either to be effective in any capacity. Too shallow (flat) to truly shovel; too dull at the edge (thick) to truly dig. A testament to settling for mediocrity. This is a Jack-of-All tool intended for people who would rather have a job done, than a job done well. 

 

An all-purpose multi-tool can have usefulness on a case-by-case basis.... but these days, I mostly see these multi-tools as instruments keeping most people from realizing that specialized tools for specific uses typically means a job is easier to work and faster to finish. You know, "use the right tool for the job." 

 

 

Annnnnyway... I am glad to see this topic bumped back up to the top again. I adore Wurm as-is, but I would be lying if I did not admit that a certain portion of my brain yearns for a tad more inherent consistency & cohesion within various categories of game mechanics. 
 

Edited November 14, 2020 by Amata
so many typos