Trade Scams

[Andru 29]

So i have an ongoing ticket I'm apparently not going to get into the details of since Prawn has request I don't (he hid/deleted the last two)

 

So I was told pretty adamantly by the CAs and player base that trade scams are bannable, i mean it says it on the mailbox as well i think.

Even Zek Nine talks about it in his stream.. about trade scams being bannable.

 

So I was just curious has anyone else dealt with this? How did they deal with it? How was it resolved?

 

I've probably done hundreds,  or more,of trades now and this is the first time i've dealt with it.

 

 

Edited September 28, 2020 by Andru

[ChampagneDragon 974]

Let me share this: (I had no part in the trade. Know neither player at all, felt the new player priest might not understand how their actions were wrong. My bad for stepping in)

 

When I saw what was going on, I messaged the new priest. I explained some stuff, had a great talk.

 

I messaged Andru letting him know I was trying to help, and to let the tirade in trade chat go.  This is what I got:

Logging started 2020-09-27
[21:30:43] Chat opened.
[21:31:15] <Champain> Dude, you gotta let it go. It's reported. I'm talking to him now explaining some stuff about priests. It may get resolved after our talk, if not, the GMs can handle it
[21:31:31] <Andru> he's already sending it back
[21:31:39] <Champain> I thought he might.
[21:31:40] <Andru> i'm not letting anything go we discussed this at length and i reminded him today
[21:31:50] <Andru> been trading with him for over 2 weeks
[21:32:21] <Champain> Yea, his reputation will assure he doesn't get a good following, I explained that to him 

 

(two hour lapse with nothing said then this: ) 

[23:41:13] <Andru> going to be honest that shouldnt be what you're explaining
[23:41:25] <Andru> you should be explaining the value of ethics, honesty and integrity
[23:41:35] <Andru> not framing things in the context of greed
[23:42:41] <Champain> Listen, what I talked to him about is really not an issue.  You got your dredge back. Situation is resolved
[23:42:49] <Andru> no i didnt
[23:42:54] <Andru> i never got the dredge back
[23:43:02] <Andru> he .ing sent it to cronuss lol
[23:43:08] <Andru> nothing is resolved
[23:43:59] <Andru> it's a shame that all you view honesty and good business as is a means to make more profits
[23:44:19] <Andru> integrity is a reward on to itself
[23:45:09] <Champain> Do not judge me. EVER. You do not know me.
[23:45:40] <Andru> [21:32:23] <Champain> Yea, his reputation will assure he doesn't get a good following, I explained that to him
[23:45:53] <Andru> ^^ explaining something in the context of profits
[23:46:15] <Andru> that's a pretty telltale indication of your own view on the situation
[23:46:23] <Champain> Andru, stop being contentious. You're making yourself look bad. I was merely trying to diffuse a situation with a new player who did not understand certain things
[23:46:40] <Andru> no you've just proven that you are also a piece of .
[23:46:44] <Champain> F off. Do not EVER  talk to me again.
[23:46:45] <Andru> in that message right there
[23:46:50] <Champain> you deserve nothing

 

 

[Andru 29]

Trade Scam resolved. Thanks to Nethys, huge thanks man.

Got the message shortly after that lovely dialogue with Champain.

 

Resolved in ~2.2 hours.

Thanks GM team great job.

 

It should also be noted the person that log was regarding was Toby/Koby. Also had been trading for 2 months.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Andru

[Bloodreina 301]

Guess that's a different scam than the one you were complaining about on trade earlier... seems to be a complot of some sorts from people to scam you...

 

[02:45:40] <Andru> he's a scammer.
[02:45:48] <Andru> i can tell you about the trade if you want
[02:46:30] <Bloodreina> what he did?
[02:47:14] <Andru> offering dirt, then changing prices just as i get there
[02:47:24] <Andru> there's no access on the river
[02:47:33] <Andru> there's sand dropped across the whole mouth of it
[02:47:49] <Andru> and more sand dropped further up, so you'll sail all the way there and realize there's no access
[02:48:04] <Andru> and apparently he thinks it's hysterical
[02:48:22] <Bloodreina> did he said the place is accessible by water?
[02:48:28] <Andru> yep
[02:48:32] <Andru> bsb was set on river
[02:48:38] <Andru> that was the whole crux of the trade
[02:49:01] <Andru> been sailing for almost 2 hours and he was perfectly aware
[02:49:05] <Bloodreina> ok, so you paid him any advance money or anthing?
[02:49:10] <Andru> no fortunately not
[02:49:17] <Andru> almost did but no
[02:49:34] <Bloodreina> then by no means he's no scammer... since he didn't got any profit
[02:49:35] <Andru> just a huge waste of time
[02:49:41] <Bloodreina> just a stupid/not serious person
[02:49:42] <Andru> no it's still a scam
[02:49:58] <Andru> a scam doesn't imply profit, just malfeasance
[02:50:02] <Bloodreina> a scam it's when someone takes advantage of you to make profit
[02:50:10] <Andru> no not necessarily
[02:50:11] <Bloodreina> he didn't made any profit and didn't took advantage of you
[02:50:17] <Andru> ok goodbye
[02:50:28] <Andru> you're obviously not interested in what i had to say you're just trying to argue
[02:50:29] <Bloodreina> he may have been mean, stupid, whatever, but it's not a scam
[02:50:36] <Andru> definitely a scam
[02:50:42] <Andru> have a good one
[02:50:58] <Bloodreina> scam = fraud, definitely not the case

Edited September 28, 2020 by Bloodreina

[Ekcin 2,417]

The mods should consider to delete such trolling threads started by the thread starter.  And he should grow up and behave in a civilized manner. Throwing accusations calling out character names is likely to start controversies and flame wars in the forum. Best those inciting such troubles were muted for a few days at any such attempts

[Toby 26]

Hi. Im the player Andru is mentioning. I didn't intend on committing any wrongdoings, and rather felt this was a recurring instance of him taking advantage of my kindness to him and manipulating me. I quickly agreed to send him a 89woa dredge for 35c and apologized. 

 

I was enchanting an item for him regretfully after he refused my rule of a max cost of 2s. I tried to be cheap and offer 1s max. He refused, and wanted to pay 50c, not silvers.. So we agreed to mail the dredge for a few casts at 35c & any enchant is fine. We agreed on a high ql dredge, and I received a low ql dredge. So i hit 89woa on his dredge, my best cast ever. I made a replica to replace the dredge. Andru saw me sell the dredge in trade chat. So he demanded it for 35c and I mentioned I can't do that, I wish to conduct fairly. Well he quickly goes to trade chat and makes a scene before we can even discuss a resolution. He broadcasted that he wouldve tipped  3-4s when he refused 1s which I thought was more than a fair compromise between two friends that chat regularly. 

 

One time he paid me 1s to travel and load crates. Some days later, i ask if he's ready, and go. He didn't have the crates prepared, so I made them for free and spent hours helping him. He messaged me regularly to chat, yet treats me like this and jumps to threats and manipulation instead of a fair agreement. Looking back, i shouldve said no. 

 

TDLR: I feel like this excellent manipulation of an unexperienced player. He refused all my rules for my safety.. I thought we were friends and agreed to it but he jumped straight into threats without any attempt of compromise and got 89woa for 35c. I see now how I violated an agreement, and have learned a lot in this mess. Im not mad, just sorry and upset he did me like this.

 

[Jore 338]

You speak a lot of morality, ethics, etc. despite repeatedly proving yourself to be one of the most shameless, toxic players i've seen.

[viruskiller 105]

9 minutes ago, Toby said:

Hi. Im the player Andru is mentioning. I didn't intend on committing any wrongdoings, and rather felt this was a recurring instance of him taking advantage of my kindness to him and manipulating me. I quickly agreed to send him a 89woa dredge for 35c and apologized. 

 

I was enchanting an item for him regretfully after he refused my rule of a max cost of 2s. I tried to be cheap and offer 1s max. He refused, and wanted to pay 50c, not silvers.. So we agreed to mail the dredge for a few casts at 35c & any enchant is fine. We agreed on a high ql dredge, and I received a low ql dredge. So i hit 89woa on his dredge, my best cast ever. I made a replica to replace the dredge. Andru saw me sell the dredge in trade chat. So he demanded it for 35c and I mentioned I can't do that, I wish to conduct fairly. Well he quickly goes to trade chat and makes a scene before we can even discuss a resolution. He broadcasted that he wouldve tipped  3-4s when he refused 1s which I thought was more than a fair compromise between two friends that chat regularly. 

 

One time he paid me 1s to travel and load crates. Some days later, i ask if he's ready, and go. He didn't have the crates prepared, so I made them for free and spent hours helping him. He messaged me regularly to chat, yet treats me like this and jumps to threats and manipulation instead of a fair agreement. Looking back, i shouldve said no. 

 

TDLR: I feel like this excellent manipulation of an unexperienced player. He refused all my rules for my safety.. I thought we were friends and agreed to it but he jumped straight into threats without any attempt of compromise and got 89woa for 35c. I see now how I violated an agreement, and have learned a lot in this mess. Im not mad, just sorry and upset he did me like this.

 

 yeah doing enchant business sucks,next time add a rule where if you get over a certain power you replace the tool or they full price if not tell them to find someone else. 80+ casts are very rare for priests at this stage.

 

anyway i can add here that i had to  ignore Andru a few weeks ago for trying to stir up crap in freedom chat so i'll let that stick to his character.

  

[Andru 29]

15 minutes ago, Toby said:

Hi. Im the player Andru is mentioning. I didn't intend on committing any wrongdoings, and rather felt this was a recurring instance of him taking advantage of my kindness to him and manipulating me. I quickly agreed to send him a 89woa dredge for 35c and apologized. 

 

I was enchanting an item for him regretfully after he refused my rule of a max cost of 2s. I tried to be cheap and offer 1s max. He refused, and wanted to pay 50c, not silvers.. So we agreed to mail the dredge for a few casts at 35c & any enchant is fine. We agreed on a high ql dredge, and I received a low ql dredge. So i hit 89woa on his dredge, my best cast ever. I made a replica to replace the dredge. Andru saw me sell the dredge in trade chat. So he demanded it for 35c and I mentioned I can't do that, I wish to conduct fairly. Well he quickly goes to trade chat and makes a scene before we can even discuss a resolution. He broadcasted that he wouldve tipped  3-4s when he refused 1s which I thought was more than a fair compromise between two friends that chat regularly. 

 

One time he paid me 1s to travel and load crates. Some days later, i ask if he's ready, and go. He didn't have the crates prepared, so I made them for free and spent hours helping him. He messaged me regularly to chat, yet treats me like this and jumps to threats and manipulation instead of a fair agreement. Looking back, i shouldve said no. 

 

TDLR: I feel like this excellent manipulation of an unexperienced player. He refused all my rules for my safety.. I thought we were friends and agreed to it but he jumped straight into threats without any attempt of compromise and got 89woa for 35c. I see now how I violated an agreement, and have learned a lot in this mess. Im not mad, just sorry and upset he did me like this.

 

 

No you didn't. You sent it to Cronuss and started to argue with me. I canceled the first ticket then had to reissue it, and told you i was going to write about it on the forum.

[Andru 29]

1 hour ago, Bloodreina said:

Guess that's a different scam than the one you were complaining about on trade earlier... seems to be a complot of some sorts from people to scam you...

 

[02:45:40] <Andru> he's a scammer.
[02:45:48] <Andru> i can tell you about the trade if you want
[02:46:30] <Bloodreina> what he did?
[02:47:14] <Andru> offering dirt, then changing prices just as i get there
[02:47:24] <Andru> there's no access on the river
[02:47:33] <Andru> there's sand dropped across the whole mouth of it
[02:47:49] <Andru> and more sand dropped further up, so you'll sail all the way there and realize there's no access
[02:48:04] <Andru> and apparently he thinks it's hysterical
[02:48:22] <Bloodreina> did he said the place is accessible by water?
[02:48:28] <Andru> yep
[02:48:32] <Andru> bsb was set on river
[02:48:38] <Andru> that was the whole crux of the trade
[02:49:01] <Andru> been sailing for almost 2 hours and he was perfectly aware
[02:49:05] <Bloodreina> ok, so you paid him any advance money or anthing?
[02:49:10] <Andru> no fortunately not
[02:49:17] <Andru> almost did but no
[02:49:34] <Bloodreina> then by no means he's no scammer... since he didn't got any profit
[02:49:35] <Andru> just a huge waste of time
[02:49:41] <Bloodreina> just a stupid/not serious person
[02:49:42] <Andru> no it's still a scam
[02:49:58] <Andru> a scam doesn't imply profit, just malfeasance
[02:50:02] <Bloodreina> a scam it's when someone takes advantage of you to make profit
[02:50:10] <Andru> no not necessarily
[02:50:11] <Bloodreina> he didn't made any profit and didn't took advantage of you
[02:50:17] <Andru> ok goodbye
[02:50:28] <Andru> you're obviously not interested in what i had to say you're just trying to argue
[02:50:29] <Bloodreina> he may have been mean, stupid, whatever, but it's not a scam
[02:50:36] <Andru> definitely a scam
[02:50:42] <Andru> have a good one
[02:50:58] <Bloodreina> scam = fraud, definitely not the case

 

 

 

^^ This is actually a modified log

 

 

[Andru 29]

2 minutes ago, Jore said:

You speak a lot of morality, ethics, etc. despite repeatedly proving yourself to be one of the most shameless, toxic players i've seen.

No actually i haven't. I've had hundreds or thousands of trade interactions and people are usually pretty happy. Including Toby/Koby for the 2 months up until this scam.

[Andru 29]

2 months of positive interactions, and started giving referrals the last 2 days until he scammed.

 

 

[Toby 26]

4 minutes ago, Andru said:

 

No you didn't. You sent it to Cronuss and started to argue with me. I canceled the first ticket then had to reissue it, and told you i was going to write about it on the forum.

EDIT: I sold it instantly, and you messaged me after I said "WTS dredge sold"

20 minutes ago, Toby said:

Andru saw me sell the dredge in trade chat.

 

Edited September 28, 2020 by Toby
messed up quoting

[Andru 29]

1 hour ago, Bloodreina said:

Guess that's a different scam than the one you were complaining about on trade earlier... seems to be a complot of some sorts from people to scam you...

 

[02:45:40] <Andru> he's a scammer.
[02:45:48] <Andru> i can tell you about the trade if you want
[02:46:30] <Bloodreina> what he did?
[02:47:14] <Andru> offering dirt, then changing prices just as i get there
[02:47:24] <Andru> there's no access on the river
[02:47:33] <Andru> there's sand dropped across the whole mouth of it
[02:47:49] <Andru> and more sand dropped further up, so you'll sail all the way there and realize there's no access
[02:48:04] <Andru> and apparently he thinks it's hysterical
[02:48:22] <Bloodreina> did he said the place is accessible by water?
[02:48:28] <Andru> yep
[02:48:32] <Andru> bsb was set on river
[02:48:38] <Andru> that was the whole crux of the trade
[02:49:01] <Andru> been sailing for almost 2 hours and he was perfectly aware
[02:49:05] <Bloodreina> ok, so you paid him any advance money or anthing?
[02:49:10] <Andru> no fortunately not
[02:49:17] <Andru> almost did but no
[02:49:34] <Bloodreina> then by no means he's no scammer... since he didn't got any profit
[02:49:35] <Andru> just a huge waste of time
[02:49:41] <Bloodreina> just a stupid/not serious person
[02:49:42] <Andru> no it's still a scam
[02:49:58] <Andru> a scam doesn't imply profit, just malfeasance
[02:50:02] <Bloodreina> a scam it's when someone takes advantage of you to make profit
[02:50:10] <Andru> no not necessarily
[02:50:11] <Bloodreina> he didn't made any profit and didn't took advantage of you
[02:50:17] <Andru> ok goodbye
[02:50:28] <Andru> you're obviously not interested in what i had to say you're just trying to argue
[02:50:29] <Bloodreina> he may have been mean, stupid, whatever, but it's not a scam
[02:50:36] <Andru> definitely a scam
[02:50:42] <Andru> have a good one
[02:50:58] <Bloodreina> scam = fraud, definitely not the case

 

You could put the part where i copy/paste the definition of scam back in there if you'd like

[Andru 29]

I get the anger, you tried to scam and you got called out in chat, and gms had to come and resolve it.

[Andru 29]

Thanks again to Enki and Nethys. To anyone else doing trades or that is new to wurm, i'd steer clear of these people. Hopefully gms start taking out the trash.

 

Literally 2 months of sending him business and buying enchants, repairs, etc.

 

At the FIRST chance to ###### over a long time loyal customer he does so for a few silver.

 

Perfect example of a bad character.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Andru

[viruskiller 105]

1 minute ago, Andru said:

2 months of positive interactions, and started giving referrals the last 2 days until he scammed.

 

 

asking someone to do a cast for you and negociate the lowest price then demanding the result for same low price it sounds to me like you were the one trying to scam a beginner .

   i had a situation where i've sent some items to improve, and one of them became rare, we didn't discuss in advance about that so the person asked me what's my policy on that, i just plain and simple said it's 50/50 , then sold the item and split the cash.i'm quite sure that if you talked with him he might have agree'd on something similar.

[Andru 29]

9 minutes ago, viruskiller said:

asking someone to do a cast for you and negociate the lowest price then demanding the result for same low price it sounds to me like you were the one trying to scam a beginner .

   i had a situation where i've sent some items to improve, and one of them became rare, we didn't discuss in advance about that so the person asked me what's my policy on that, i just plain and simple said it's 50/50 , then sold the item and split the cash.i'm quite sure that if you talked with him he might have agree'd on something similar.

 

we discussed price, i asked for 4 woa casts. He said 35c. I agreed. I sent dredge, he woaed and sold it.

 

It's that simple dude.

It was a scam.

He is not a beginner, he's had higher stats than me since I started and I even paid him 1 or 2 silver just to load crates a few weeks back.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Andru

[Andru 29]

Dredge returned at 35c at the behest of GM intervening and resolving, since he already mailed the thing to someone.

s

c

a

m

 

 

[enoofu 206]

What the point of this tread?

 

[Toby 26]

22 minutes ago, Andru said:

Dredge returned at 35c at the behest of GM intervening and resolving, since he already mailed the thing to someone.

s

c

a

m

 

 

I personally requested the GM. The GM's said I did not have to agree to your demands, but I did it to be honest in our agreement. I clearly made a mistake in our agreement, so yes that is technically cheating you. But I did not think of it like this, and I feel scammed too. We were friends, but its obvious you refuse to trust me in that I am being honest to you in that I intended no harm. I honestly thought making a new dredge at the same ql would be an appropriate action for me to take. I was wrong, and I am sorry. Please take my honest apology. I've been kind and reasonable despite you relentlessly attacking my character publicly.

EDIT: typo

Edited September 28, 2020 by Toby
typo

[Badvoc 204]

If Toby had done this over and over again I would agree with naming and shaming, but since this seems to have been an honest mistake, admitted to and sorted by Toby with a public apology I feel your coming very close to crossing a line Andru, maybe the bigger thing to do is accept the apology and move on? 

 

the item has been returned and lessons learnt, So maybe the thread could be closed as I think it will just end up as a flame war from this point with no value at all.

[Tor 530]

39 minutes ago, enoofu said:

What the point of this tread?

 

 

Didn't you know, every little bit of controversy shall be shouted across the chats in game and a new thread on the forums. Because, how dare they don't do what i say

[Retrograde 12,013]

I'm going to lock this thread as I do not see anything positive in it. 

 

Andru, I'm glad you consider the issue resolved. 

 

Toby, thank you for going above and beyond to do your best to resolve the situation.