Darklords

PvP Discussion #3

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I feel like priests taking armour off before casting is a strange "issue" to be focusing on. 

 

Especially as it's a gamble whenever a priest does this as there's a window where they are unarmoured + have a nerfed CR due to casting. To me having such a risk involved means it's fairly balanced. 

 

Do people really think PvP will be drastically improved by adding a timer for taking armour off, or other such "fix"? It all just seems like an added frustration to me, and definitely not something that would lead to more people PvPing.

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5 hours ago, BrokenSanity said:

I feel like priests taking armour off before casting is a strange "issue" to be focusing on. 

 

Especially as it's a gamble whenever a priest does this as there's a window where they are unarmoured + have a nerfed CR due to casting. To me having such a risk involved means it's fairly balanced. 

 

Do people really think PvP will be drastically improved by adding a timer for taking armour off, or other such "fix"? It all just seems like an added frustration to me, and definitely not something that would lead to more people PvPing.

OP has a section about priest balancing and spells, this is a suggestion relating that topic. 

This change would also have to affect archery too. Also agree timers for equipping and unequiping sounds horrible which i think it should be an action cancel.

 

There's no real point to the debuff if you can negate it entirely. As mentioned before, you can unequip and re-equip within a second so you'd need to be already fighting the caster to make use of that "vulnerable to damage" opportunity which anyone with half a brain would just not take the armor off. The whole point is, if you want to prevent the casting penalty, you need to be unarmoured for the whole cast duration, or you wear the lighter armor which doesn't provide the penalty.

 

Oblivion suggested some spells are not covered under the penalty, if thats the case that should be amended too. I also agree flat failure rate sucks and difficulty scaling is better. However the fact that the 30 second hurting status is more valuable than the <1 damage wound, I'm ok with the flat failure penalty.

 

Edit: i just realised you can get a 30% bonus for casting without armor. That's a potential 60% difference to spell casts. Of course you shouldn't be able to just "negate the debuff and activate the spell buff" like that.

Edited by Moondevil
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5 hours ago, Moondevil said:

Edit: i just realised you can get a 30% bonus for casting without armor. That's a potential 60% difference to spell casts. Of course you shouldn't be able to just "negate the debuff and activate the spell buff" like that.

thats not how the bonus works, its very minor

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Basically, the armor bonus/penalty applies to your faith bonus for casting

Faith bonus caps at 70, and is increased by...
1. Every point of alignment above 49 (or below -49 for lib) is 1 faith bonus
2. Every point of faith above 90 is 1 points
3. Altar faith bonus (which is shown as a spell effect/buff) is 1 per bonus.

Then, the armor penalty functions after that. So at 70 faith bonus, wearing plate reduces you down to 49 or so. I don't know if the bonus to faith allows you to exceed the cap (i've been told it does though).

I'm not certain the exact math on how faith bonus impacts spellcasting, but it doesn't modify the difficulty and just acts as a relatively sizeable bonus after channeling (enough to seriously impact skillgain at certain points)- it's not so huge as to say that casting with the -30% penalty means you're literally 70% as effective as a priest, or 130% as effective for not wearing armor, but it does have an impact.

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Incentives to live on PvP servers
    Nobody can take your coc tools and you don't need to worry about keeping an eye on local.
    Skilling equipment on PVE is better since there is a larger population producing these items and a pure PVE player's time isn't being contested by the need to level combat skills.
    Why travel 10 minutes each way to the forest/mine to skill grind when you can take the portal and instantly be there with your skilling loadout
    Problem: PVE is the better place to grind skills
    Possible Incentives:
        Dramatically increase the duration of temporary affinities from killing in pvp and award multiple temporary to increase the change you get one you can actually grind
        PVP Journal Path
        Cheaper village upkeep costs might encourage PVE people to live on PVP servers
        Account bound PVP only rewards
    
Off Deed Mines
    Please make Wrath of Mag and all siege damage mine doors. Or make them lockpickable. They're a bit op right now and have become the base entranceway meta.
Roaming Incentives
    I'd definately head out for sleep powder, the problem with roaming is that once a faction dominates, they aquire lots of backup gear from full loot pvp, lots of moonmetals,
    rare bones, skillgain affinities. The rewards are a great incentive, but is it worth risking a full gear set and two horses?
    Spawn ointments of armoursmithing, weaponsmithing etc - stuff that will make it easier for us to go out and fight more rather than sleep powder that incentivises skilling inside deed for an hour.
Raid Windows
    The 2 hour windows I've seen feel fair.
Priest Balance
    Especially in the early game, the priests felt unfairly powerfull. Being able to resurrect champ creatures that we can't even 1v1 and bring them into battle is simply unfair and needs balancing.
    Being able to heal myself with a massive success rate using the 10 favour Focused Will was an instant game changer for hunting and fighting. Cotton doesn't even come close to that in early game.
    Didn't need to work much on shortbow because I could just Flameheart someone's horse. Flameheart even works well through bardings unlike arrows.
    But hey, it's nice being of the winning side of combat encounters for once, feels good.
    
    While your at it, probably worth getting rid of the karma menu on a player's body entirely.
    Last I checked none of those spells work on Defiance.
Shield Skill/Creatures
    Not being able to gain shield skill has shifted the meta more into 2h weapons. Why level 2 skills when you can level 1?
    There should probably be some compensation for this - both for the people who have specialised into 2h weapons because we thought this was an intentional pvp change, and for the
    people who have desperately been trying to level their shield skill.
Battle Camp Hota
    It's annoying to go to a battlecamp and see that it's already been looted by someone else - I would like to see a notification in death tab when
    a battlecamp is ready to loot again. And perhaps in the Settlement -> Info -> List of battlecamps, information that tells us if the camp is currently on looting cooldown and how long until it can be looted again.
    
    We're aware that we can build fences and things around battlecamps, but that's kinda toxic. And nobody wants to bring a large cart/wagon all the way out there.
    It'd be good to put a notification in death tab when a player starts capturing a battlecamp rather than after the 5 minute timer to get enemy villages to respond quicker.
    These changes will hopefully encourage more pvp at the battlecamps.

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16 hours ago, Moondevil said:

Rewarded for waiting for the timer to reach 1 second, click unequip all and then click first item at your armor stack, hold shift, click bottom of your armor stack, then drag onto your character? Takes like a second if you know what you're doing.

 

1 second isn't enough time to make use of you being vulnerable.

 

Sorry to cherry pick on Ciray, first clip I could see. At 1:44 he unequips his armor with 3 seconds left. At 2 seconds left he has his armor already selected and ready to requip again. He's vulnerable for 3 seconds and that's only because he didn't time it optimally (or tried to consider potential lag).

 

 

Regardless, the vulnerability window is so small doing this trick, you have no time to react and land a swing/arrow. 

 

At the same time I am pretty sure if someone came up to him he would stop casting. Also tangleweave exists. I think they should reduce the favor on TW and maybe increase the range. Sitting still and casting is still risky even if you are good at taking armor on and off. Give us another tool to deal with it instead of just removing it.

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8 hours ago, BrokenSanity said:

I feel like priests taking armour off before casting is a strange "issue" to be focusing on. 

 

Especially as it's a gamble whenever a priest does this as there's a window where they are unarmoured + have a nerfed CR due to casting. To me having such a risk involved means it's fairly balanced. 

 

Do people really think PvP will be drastically improved by adding a timer for taking armour off, or other such "fix"? It all just seems like an added frustration to me, and definitely not something that would lead to more people PvPing.

 

it's a very strange issue to be focusing on. There are already tools in place to deal with this. Improve those tools or find something else to give non priests (besides shield bashing) to interrupt priests.

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2 hours ago, Zao said:

 

At the same time I am pretty sure if someone came up to him he would stop casting. Also tangleweave exists. I think they should reduce the favor on TW and maybe increase the range. Sitting still and casting is still risky even if you are good at taking armor on and off. Give us another tool to deal with it instead of just removing it.

TW has like a 5 minute cooldown
i would probably start with fixing that.

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Ah yeah, totally. That's really weird.

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surface minning enchant for pickaxes on the libila spell book would bring more pvp

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it would be pretty cool if locate soul actually had some distance on this giant map. the spell is basically worthless right now

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1 hour ago, steamedlunch said:

surface minning enchant for pickaxes on the libila spell book would bring more pvp



Kill some Whitelighters for their mag enchanted pickaxes. Seems like you'd get alot of PVP that way :P 

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Question how many of these threads are we going to have before changes are going to be made?

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For incentives to pvp/roam.... randomly add a [insert name here] event where all combat oriented skillgain and rank increase by 25% for a weekend.

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On 9/28/2020 at 6:33 PM, AceRifle said:

Question how many of these threads are we going to have before changes are going to be made?

 

Question. How many times are you going to comment until you say something that isn't half baked?

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On 9/29/2020 at 3:23 AM, Zekezor said:

For incentives to pvp/roam.... randomly add a [insert name here] event where all combat oriented skillgain and rank increase by 25% for a weekend.

 

Does double xp weekend on rs3 give me wurm stats?

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Blocking crossing and making an either/or choice would kill defiance (more quickly than it might otherwise fizzle out naturally)

 

Weekend warriors exist even if they're looked down on by full time pvpers. You can't force people to - entice them instead

 

+1 to being able to get SB by other means - if that's really the reason people aren't on defiance full time

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Posted (edited)

Branching from this, a solution where items can cross one way (PvE->PvP) might look good on paper but I feel like this will ultimately shift even more into the PvE economy unless it's done right. The only way I can really see this working is if it was set up the way you described and PvP was the only source for moonmetals from here on out, since if they implement an alternative way to get it like with the marks store it's all for nothing. All around, incentives need to be put on staying on PvP and everything else you said above is spot on as to what the problems are.

 

As for the item destruction, that's a big +1 for me since I feel like it follows Eve Online. Items are lost in combat, but they remain in circulation indefinitely until they are destroyed. There's been a number of times where I've seen the same set of horse gear swap between four or five different people and the only difference is who's name is on it this week. Having a percentage of the gear be destroyed or heavily damaged (Such as reducing quality or enchantments) would take more gear out of the equation and make loot all around more valuable. However without some serious buffs to offset the amount of gear that would be lost, it would put unneeded strain on crafters which are already swamped with replacing gear in the event of a bad engagement.

Edited by Pandalet
Moderation edit

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re: nobody plays on defiance over pve
Affinities need to be rewarded more on the PvP server than current values.

Currently in a fight, probably only like 30% of players or something have more than 1 affinity about 2 months into the server, and the majority of "second or more" affinities people have on PvP were because people thought it would be cost efficient to buy affinities with marks.
You can tie more people grinding to defiance by just rewarding affinities more. Through pvp, through an increased chance while crafting, through hota or whatever. 

Affinities being kept server specific, and PvP having an easier time stacking them, eventually players that primarily play on PvP will have a permanent advantage that stacks with SB to grind with.
This in no way compares to simply just selling items on PvE and buying sleep powder, as it would still be a lot worse, but I'd bet it's the best option barring making PvE travel more inconvenient i.e sailing.

I don't care regardless if it really gets changed, as the best way to play time efficiently will always be grinding on PvE while it's an instant&convenient option. But I do think adding incentives towards rewarding people playing on/grinding on Defiance is a step in the right direction.

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Posted (edited)

I agree with loot destruction similar to EVE Online's system. The number can be tweaked, but in the long run it will increase the value of gear.

If there is loot destruction, I think PVP/PVE cross economy would be beneficial, but

1) battlecamps / treasure chests should start dropping some coin to offset the loot destruction (remove foraging/botanizing/selling for coin from pvp server, make chests/battlecamps pull from nearest kingdom coffers?)

2) make PVP the only source/better source of moonmetal. 

That way PVPers can buy from the dedicated crafters on PVE and their pockets won't hurt so dang much.

Edited by Raix

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3 hours ago, Morathi said:

I've said this privately, but sleep bonus or the economy needs to be addressed.

 

There is little to no incentive to be on the PvP server outside of actually going to PvP, less activity = less PvP.

 

Why would anyone grind on PvP? SB is around 1.5s/powder on PvE. You made a merge to the sleep pools, but for what? It doesn't even address the issue, because nobody is going to spend it on PvP. Theyre going to keep crafting and spending it on PvE because the things they make will be sold there for more powder, so they can literally grind with permanent 2x gains in a far more efficient nature due to the inherent safety net of PvE.

 

Even hunting, why would you hunt on Defiance? It has less mobs than any of the PvE servers (certainly feels like it, everything south of the north coast is desolate at best.), once you hit 70fs you may as well go grind archery, your subskills, and all of your weaponskills on PvE.

 

These issues encourage less activity which is less PvP, the second issue being mob spawns just encourages less roaming, which is even more destructive to PvP.

 

You either need to let items cross, or block crossing at a minimum. A more comprehensive solution could be something like destruction of a limited number of items on player death, and then allowing moonmetals to cross to PvE and finished goods only to cross to PVP.

 

this right here, save the server before its too late

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Main issue is sleep powder existing, how cheap it is. This item shouldn't have ever been introduced but Id guess it was crucial to keep the game afloat.

Can't really nerf it.

 

 

If people are chasing skillgains then adding skillgain benefits onto PvP is prob the way to do it. Personally I don't like all the skillgain boosts but that's because I'm an old timer and enjoyed the slower Grindy ways but maybe I'm not with the times.

 

Could introduce a scaling passive skillgain buffs to villages/alliances on PvP servers which you could tie raiding into. 

The longer villages are unraided, the more the skillgain bonus you get. If you do it by alliance you can prevent player stacking deeds.

Could encourage raiding by letting you gain more bonus for your alliance by raiding enemy towns and "stealing" or reducing theirs to encourage defending all allied deeds.

 

I can see ways how it can abused just on paper cut you guys are the geniuses, I'm sure you could iron it out. I did think that bonuses should be maintained but in the event of a dead server, it may be impossible.

 

Some negatives, toxic alliance mentality, forcing players within alliance to meet need build requirements. 

Winning Kingdom stacking, maybe be able to add ratios in but then can encourage other toxic behaviour.

 

Someone else suggested a skillgain bonus for playing on PvP for long periods of time, I could agree with this if global spells covered all servers. This may discourage freedomers travelling to other servers though. Maybe all freedom spells affect defiance? That'll prevent the need to go over and lose the passive.

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Just now, Moondevil said:

Someone else suggested a skillgain bonus for playing on PvP for long periods of time, I could agree with this if global spells covered all servers. This may discourage freedomers travelling to other servers though. Maybe all freedom spells affect defiance? That'll prevent the need to go over and lose the passive.

Not a bad angle on the surface, but even ignoring that most people are Vyn for the skillgain, it would still mean WL kingdoms would be getting more Rite casts than BL ones. I guess you could balance that out by just making them give sleep powder to everyone online, but at that point why even have the Rites in the first place?

 

I still feel that the best bonus is one that rewards people for staying on the PvP server for the long term, which would mean it would need to be more attractive than the constant lines of sleep powder Freedom can dish out.

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can we get dev input im curious what the takeaway has been so far after 6 pgs @Darklords

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51 minutes ago, Sovos said:

Not a bad angle on the surface, but even ignoring that most people are Vyn for the skillgain, it would still mean WL kingdoms would be getting more Rite casts than BL ones.

Good point, didn't consider this.

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