Darklords

PvP Discussion #3

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6 hours ago, BrokenSanity said:


Sindusk already linked my thread on this, but here it is again:

 

 

In short, the main reasons people mainly play on the PvE servers are the increased skillgain, and the ability to sell the things you create for silver.

 

The former is partly due to the latter, as you are able to use the silver you make on Freedom's active market to purchase even more sleep bonus, thus increasing skillgain. But as well as that, on PvE you have many more Rites; due to multiple servers and larger concentrations of vynora priests, you have Wisdom of Vynora (which is also bugged due to the fixed 10 hours of fatigue, it's also of course inaccessible to BL priests on Defiance), and soon there will be path of Knowledge level 11, granting a 25% bonus to skill gain, that you can not achieve on Defiance. 

 

My most recent suggestion to partly counter this was to passively increase skillgain on Defiance, but not have that increase linked to a specific meditation path. If it was linked to a specific meditation path, and the specific path was not the "PvP-meta path", then people would still choose to skill on freedom, and instead choose the PvP-meta path on Defiance. Instead I suggested linking the passive skill gain increase to overall meditation skill, but there are of course many other ways this could be done. 


Maybe pvp players could get a bonus to skill gain that gradually goes up from maybe 0-15% extra skill gain. This skill gain is increased by how many hours you have been online on defiance without using the pve portal, after spending lets say 20 hours on Defiance you get 7.5% extra skill gain and after another 40 hours you have reached 15% max skill gain. Taking the portal to pve would remove all extra gain on Defiance and reset it back to 0%.

Edited by Nocturnes

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Buffing skill gain because of x variables be it time spent on defiane or a flat rate along with a sleep powder reward for some pvp objectives could really help alleviate the skilling deficit.

 

Any skill gain buff needs to outweigh the benefits of pve though. Probably significantly. If skill buff were to be time based and reset on leaving it would truly have to be significant. Otherwise there's little point to maintaining if its an insignificant loss. Maybe this argues for a flat rate skill gain increase.

 

 

 

Edited by Melros
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40 minutes ago, Joemog said:

That's not an actual argument. Fact is that removing priest restriction will bring in more complications and more requirements for pvp, not less, because of the need to grind faith and channeling.

You act like it's hard to lvl faith and channeling. you barely need channeling to cast pvp offensive spells successful. It's either you pvp with a priest or you don't at all. We’re on a pvp server so I would like to see pvp. You’ll rarely see a non priest roam. 

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3 minutes ago, AceRifle said:

You act like it's hard to lvl faith and channeling. you barely need channeling to cast pvp offensive spells successful. It's either you pvp with a priest or you don't at all. We’re on a pvp server so I would like to see pvp. You’ll rarely see a non priest roam. 

It takes quite a while, especially on top of everything else.

Many pvp spells are cast power dependant and benefit greatly from channeling, one of the hardest skill in the game to grind.

 

I pvp just fine on a non-priest. Not saying priests aren't powerful, but i hate the idea ofe veryone being a priest

Edited by Joemog
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41 minutes ago, Postes said:

I think we are at the stage of Defiance where it's starting the decline in activity and players. We went from 400, 300, now around 250-200. It's always fun at the start, and that momentum never carries over. A lot of players now play only on the PvE servers to craft and sell goods, and portal over when there's PvP. The problem is that so many with that playstyle there just becomes less of an appeal to be on a PvP server with under 200 people, and even less chance to find someone to kill. Why bother playing on Defiance if you can skill everything up safely on PvE then portal over just for PvP? It really is kind of the dumber choice to only play exclusively on Defiance. It's just more risk and no reward. The sad truth is though any perks you give a PvP server because the majority of Wurm Online's playerbase is on the PvE servers, they're the majority that gets heard and catered because they drive the biggest revenue for the game. We barely have anything left that's exclusive only to us. 

 

You're not going to make anyone happy with touching priest spells. Yes, some spells suck, and yes some are strong. Do I think Libila's should be stronger? Yes. It's not because I play HotS, its is because that Vyn, Mag, and Fo have around 30-35 spells. Together that's a collective 90 spells in a WL kingdom. Libila probably has half or less of that many spells. Yes, if we're going to be limited to having a single God choice, that single choice should balance well against all three. 

 

As for HotA, I personally think you should try to combine the old HotA with the new. In example having a timed event, but still utilizing the battlecamps. Perhaps instead of one tower every 25 hours, 6 spawn at once, so there's more incentive to get people out as soon as possible searching for battlecamps rather than slowly capping them over a week's time. Yes, it means you're going to reduce the window to encourage people to go off deed to a single event rather than over the course of a week, but no one is really having many fights for battle camps right now. Most people who win do it uncontested. I think with having many spawn across the map at once you have to strategize more. Do you wait for enemies? Do you go as one big group? Do you split up? 

 

I don't think really have any comment on the other points because I think they're fine. No ones tried to raid. Minedoors just promote safety. We'll go back to the old days of carrying a mallet, planks, and nails, and walling the enemy in. The only thing not included there is that when you lose 20+ people in a fight... it's a ###### ton of gear to replace. It's hard. 20 people die, each on a horse, that's 80 horseshoes not including any backup horses. 180 pieces of armor. Maybe the boost for Defiance or PvP servers is that smithing after 50ql is doubled. So it's much faster to improve items quickly to higher quality, and it's not such a strain on crafters to have to create so much armor and gear. Gear can't transfer so who cares if we're able to make it higher quality faster over here? 

 

 

Yes to making gear faster and when I say faster I don’t mean 2x I talking about x4-x5.  Takes way too much time to gear and to get them enchanted so you can pvp again.

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3 minutes ago, Joemog said:

It takes quite a while, especially on top of everything else.

Many pvp spells are cast power dependant and benefit greatly from channeling, one of the hardest skill in the game to grind.

 

I pvp just fine on a non-priest. Not saying priests aren't powerful, but i hate the idea ofe veryone being a priest

Sorry you hate the idea but unless you bring another idea that could potentially bring people in this is the way forward.

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Make staff's useful with like a vessel type of spells like max 5-10 spells to be casted(could be also based of QL of staff 10ql per slot or something), used by non priests only and have something in your inventory to use or like a pool that can be obtained by. Like 10 veggies per cast or something simple. So it's not a difficult thing to do. But have certain spells take up more slots for stuff like LoF and Scorn since it's a group healing spell. Same goes to all AoE. Or just simply do a favor used vs difficulty vs soul depth/strength. Put a decent cooldown of like 1-2 minutes since obviously you're not a priest. And also make staff's easier to make.

 

Other changes are nice to have.

 

A BIG change would be to the ranking system, make it reset monthly with NO DECAY. Have a leaderboard up. Top three would win simple things from expanding your SB pool by up to like 5 hours or something only on Defiance. Silvers or anything along that nature.

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22 minutes ago, AceRifle said:

Sorry you hate the idea but unless you bring another idea that could potentially bring people in this is the way forward.

 

Just because someone doesn't have a different idea to immediately rebute doesn't validate a current "bad idea". Mate what. 

 

Thats like me spouting off a bad idea to a hyper complex issue,  and just because no ones come up with something better (which I argue isn't the case) within 14 hours or so means that my idea will fix something and is the only option left. There is the possibility of making things worse too with a suggestion...

 

Still -1

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1 hour ago, Postes said:

becomes less of an appeal to be on a PvP server with under 200 people, and even less chance to find someone to kill. Why bother playing on Defiance if you can skill everything up safely on PvE then portal over just for PvP? It really is kind of the dumber choice to only play exclusively on Defiance. It's just more risk and no reward.

 

37 minutes ago, Melros said:

Buffing skill gain because of x variables be it time spent on defiane or a flat rate along with a sleep powder reward for some pvp objectives could really help alleviate the skilling deficit.

 

Any skill gain buff needs to outweigh the benefits of pve though. Probably significantly. If skill buff were to be time based and reset on leaving it would truly have to be significant. Otherwise there's little point to maintaining if its an insignificant loss. Maybe this argues for a flat rate skill gain increase.

 

It's a two factor thing, skillgain should be faster as a baseline, but there also needs to be something to retain population similar to what Postes said. Defiance should have an across the board buff on skillgain to counteract the naturally faster skillgain on PvE, which is inherited by all players. Additionally, a buff that stacks over time up to a certain point that increases this with the caveat of the buff only stacking for as long as someone stays on Defiance. Going even further on this, it could be that when this buff is fully stacked you gain specific bonuses that feed back into the natural flow of PvP, such as being able to improve items faster. 

 

So something like this:

Fortitude - Passive buff that increases skillgain by X%. Spending time on Defiance adds stacks up to a certain amount, increasing skillgain by an additional Y% per stack. This is the buff that would incentivize staying on PvP, as when fully capped and stacked with the initial passive portion, skillgain should be faster than on PvE.

Cowardice -  Drains stacks from Fortitude when a player leaves PvP. While Fortitude would not be active on Freedom regardless, Cowardice would drain stacks from it depending on how long you remain off PvP, as well as locking the fully stacked bonus for a flat period of time regardless of time spent crossed over.

Indomitable - Replaces Fortitude when fully stacked, contains the same bonuses but also adds the ability to improve items faster. Since items are locked to PvP anyway, getting more people into the fight faster is nothing but beneficial here. Yes, losing gear isn't the end of the world, but certain gear takes an absurd amount of time to replace since a specific QL baseline is required for it to even be useful.

 

 

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I've withheld posting here for some time, but here is my feedback.

 

Incentives to live on PvP servers

The biggest issue is honestly skillgain. On the PVE servers you are able to grind as a priest (which encourages all priests to spend their time off server as it is the most efficient.) You encourage an economy there and grinding results in goods that can be sold for high prices, specifically rares and supremes that result in an overabundance of sleep bonus which is pretty much 2x gains to characteristics and skills. (This results in anyone grinding any skills there, because odds are you can sustain perma-sb if the skills are desirable). The population on these servers is also generally higher and not as split religion wise, resulting in a higher occurance of rites for even more free sleep bonus (which encourages people to go over to also grind for free 2x gains.)

 

There are essentially numerous more reasons to play on PvE to better your account than there is to play on PvP. The fun part about PvP is the risk involved and actually PvPing, if you make everything else about the game better somewhere else, it is only natural people will go there for everything else.

 

Off Deed Mines

This would need some careful balance. My experience with off deed minedoors were as such -- You find an enemy, you fight them, they retreat to their mine. At this point, one of three things happens: The first, you leave because it takes 5 minutes to make a 70ql door and an hour to bash it with 20 people. The second, you camp the door and they log off. You could deed over them at this point, but with current mechanics they would be teleported off. If that wasn't the case, people would just either not log in again out of pride or suicide to you which isn't fun or engaging. The third, you hop them for a bit until someone on either side dies due to lucky RNG with crits, and then it reverts to one of the first two options.

 

Roaming Inventives

The largest on-the-cuff PvP incentive is hunting. Right now, if you want to hunt you go to JK starter island or don't bother (and even there, the mob density is lackluster at best.) It's legitimately so bad we struggle to make bulk affinity meals. The others, in no particular order are HOTA, Silver, and Conquest. The HOTA system was a big step forward, but Sindusk put forth the best explanation as to why it is currently failing. A big reason is simply that it is not worth going into enemy lands for a single piece of moonmetal, it is instead preferable to wait for all the required towers to spawn and send out multiple groups to cap them all at the same time. This reduces the chance of a response, and interference, because these towers immediately despawn. I would instead propose a rotating supply depot, in conjunction with the current system, except change the system so that every tower owned generates a small but steady stream of moonmetals to the alliance capitol until it decays and respawns.

 

Raid Windows

I'm going to simply respond to the others in this thread, and i'll lay out my own deeds design for the world to see here to make a point.

 

Lets say you wanted to raid Nuln. You could quite simply walk up and knock two walls down and drain the token, but that's not really a raid. You want the loot in a raid typically. So heres what you'd have to do to get the loot out of the deed.

 

The raid group would need to bash a 90ql stone (steel soon enough) minedoor which takes about 30 minutes to an hour in and of itself. Once you are inside, provided there is at least one person on, the route inside would be collapsed and reinforced. You are met with the decision at this point of either leaving, or continuing. If you continue, you need to disintegrate (2% chance per cast, spell is cancelled by any source of damage) through 6 reinforced walls within the hour after you drain the deed. This alone is statistically very unlikely. You also need to add in the fact that you need to have saccables prepared beforehand, you can maintain numbers, and you are able to build an altar offdeed, and the deed is small enough that the trip from the wall to the altars is not significant. Now lets say you get through those, we have a bridge over an underground trench that would presumably be popped if there was one person defending. This trench goes to waterlevel and is nearly 1000 slope. Its a 45 down slope, followed by the big slope, followed by a flat water tile, followed by the big up slope, followed by a 45 up slope. In order to get across this, you would need enough sandwiches to climb up the other side to the 45 slope and bash a fence to get in. That's not enough though, because you need to get loot off deed, and there is no way you can haul significant amounts out that way. You are left with one option -- Bash three walls with that method just previously stated, bash the statues in the pit, and find items on that ground that do not enter piles but clip through the floor to then allow you to strongwall 15 tiles. This is also a spell that is interrupted by any source of damage at all, and the templars respawning. (Bear in mind, the longer you stay on deed, the faster they respawn.). If you get that done, congrats. Now you have to bash or lockpick into every individual house/interior door within the remaining window.

 

All of this is provided you get past the drain disintegration window to begin with, that there is no more than a single person defending the deed when you raid (which is unlikely, given raid windows.), and these houses are easily bashable within 6 hours. That's why nobody raids. If BLers in this thread are curious, i can post the deed design of Malice publicly and tell you why it won't be raided within 6 hours of time at your peak. There is also the issue with timezones, some groups are european focused and others are american focused. Defending a deed is already a massive advantage, if you have numbers on top of that it's basically a non starter. You will not see any deeds raided with the current mechanic because the most time-consuming raiding issues were not addressed at all on the server. Let's not forget that if a deed is on the default raid window, you can change the raid window spontaneously even with rolling drains on your deed (See: Brotherhood of Darkness, when Nieutrazony was mayor.), or if the date of your raid was leaked and you did manage to get huge numbers for this event, you could just show up to find the raid window changed and you are forced to call it off.

 

The raid windows also have unintended effects when combined with things like only one lockpicker per wall, such as making coastguarding much less rewarding.

 

Priest Balance

     No comment here as I am of the belief that religion and combat do actually need a huge rework, small changes won't fix very much here.

   

Shield Skill/Creatures

The primary problem with shieldskill is just starting out. Once you hit like 40 it zooms pretty fast.

 

My 2c.

Edited by Morathi
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1 hour ago, Melros said:

 

Still waiting on actual feedback. 

 

As it stands, everyone thinks everyone is baiting and just runs home anyway. Knowing if the enemy has a roughly similar size group to your roaming group would encourage engagement. Its reasonable to assume Muck maybe had back up a couple days ago, but also watching 8 people decend on one person because they thought he was baiting was also pretty silly and speaks to the current pvp culture. I could see a pendulum change addressing this. 

 

As it stands there's barely any pvp anyway unless its an absolute wipe because of numbers game. Addressing that knowledge gap could alleviate the issue.. Hell, you could still have people in mines if you were trying to lay a trap on an unsuspecting person and/or group.. maybe counter balance a buffed pendulum by making it not pick up people in mines. 

 

You could possibly reduce pendulum range too in this scenario, that way people could even be farther out to spring a trap but not as effectively close by to immediately counter. 

 

In the instance of running into a small group then, its up to the opposing kingdom how they want to respond. If it means waiting to engage until you can overwhelm them with large numbers rather than take the fight with similar numbers then at that point, it's a culture difference.


You just outlined why it wont change anything.
The situation changes from lingering outside of local vibing to instead spending 5 minutes to make your group a mine (will literally be done every time if this gets patched), or getting your priests to cast body nolo on a few people each so they're not picked up with pendulum.
the meta would be to just move your group to a mine, and pendulums already have an above/below ground differentiation. Neither of which fix what you guys consider a problem. 

It definitely creates a bad meta where you need to respond as if the enemy is rolling with their regular form up if they're messing around at your deeds, but you also have the advantage of
1) fighting or not fighting on your own terms
2) the fight can start within local of your deed

Off-deed minedoors are probably going to be the closest thing to shaking up that meta a bit, but I'm not sure how that will pan out exactly.

 

 

2 hours ago, AceRifle said:

People don’t want to have a priest account for pvp and a crafting account. Being a priest is an always will be a requirement for pvp. A lot of people aren’t playing because of that and I know myself and the majority of my group are about to stop playing because of it. Y’all bout to see another dead sever.

 I’m ok with removing priest and spells altogether minus woa/coc

You've been playing this game for years and you decided, against the meta that's been in the game for years, to priest up without a crafter or people to trust you with crafter accounts.
I'm sorry, but that's a foresight issue.

We don't need everyone and their brother being priests, there's disadvantages to being priest and being able to craft is one of them. There's a simple solution and it's been the solution to the same issue for the past 10 years, nothing has changed.
If you want to be a priest, be a priest. If the disadvantages don't outweigh the advantages, don't be a priest.
If you don't want to deal with the good with the bad, then just have a crafter alt.

I don't know where "everyone wants it" comes from. 

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2 hours ago, Melros said:

If anything, the restrictions give non priests more of an ability to surpass priests in areas like body stats, leveling the field if not by a little. Those crafting skills you level on Pve do nothing for you on pvp except body stats. So removing the restrictions would just widen the gap between priests and non priests

What body stat difference? If anything priest miss out on a bit of body control and even then its practically mediated by archery, sheild grinding and other tasks you can do to bypass the restriction. Also again as it stands you can just hop over on the freedom servers and boom.

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One other aspect to consider after reading this comment from Samool on the other thread:

 

16 hours ago, Samool said:

This will be coming together with a sleep bonus merge between Defiance and the PvE servers of the Northern Freedom Isles - your sleep bonus will cross through when using the PvP portal, so that you can use it where you want to.

 

 

If more methods of gaining sleep bonus are introduced to Defiance, this should still coincide with some form of increased skill gain on Defiance.

 

Otherwise you'll end up with more or less the same problem as before; where people will hop over to Defiance to get their sleep bonus before returning to PvE to grind (due to the aforementioned increased skill gain from PoK 11, selling their goods, etc.). 

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16 hours ago, Darklords said:

Priest Balance

    Looking for feedback on how people feel about the balance of priests/spells on the PvP side.

Libila is and has always been the best priest. 

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15 hours ago, Sindusk said:

There's so many possibilities if they just did not expire.

Perma battlecamps you can build in when capped, with no raid windows and increased damage to the stuff you build or something

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1 hour ago, Groot said:


You just outlined why it wont change anything.
The situation changes from lingering outside of local vibing to instead spending 5 minutes to make your group a mine (will literally be done every time if this gets patched), or getting your priests to cast body nolo on a few people each so they're not picked up with pendulum.
the meta would be to just move your group to a mine, and pendulums already have an above/below ground differentiation. Neither of which fix what you guys consider a problem. 

It definitely creates a bad meta where you need to respond as if the enemy is rolling with their regular form up if they're messing around at your deeds, but you also have the advantage of
1) fighting or not fighting on your own terms
2) the fight can start within local of your deed

Off-deed minedoors are probably going to be the closest thing to shaking up that meta a bit, but I'm not sure how that will pan out exactly.

 

 

You've been playing this game for years and you decided, against the meta that's been in the game for years, to priest up without a crafter or people to trust you with crafter accounts.
I'm sorry, but that's a foresight issue.

We don't need everyone and their brother being priests, there's disadvantages to being priest and being able to craft is one of them. There's a simple solution and it's been the solution to the same issue for the past 10 years, nothing has changed.
If you want to be a priest, be a priest. If the disadvantages don't outweigh the advantages, don't be a priest.
If you don't want to deal with the good with the bad, then just have a crafter alt.

I don't know where "everyone wants it" comes from. 

Lol and that’s why the game hasn’t been growing for ten years it’s because you have to have a crafter and a priest on pvp. I played enough to the point of not caring if I have a crafter or not I just won’t play easy as that.

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17 hours ago, Darklords said:

Roaming Inventives

fighting for Depots was fun, I think anything we can to to break up the zerg v zerg style is going to be healthy. I liked postes idea of having 6 battlecamps at once because it may force groups to split up.

 

A depot that spawns randomly, gives a small amount of cool rewards, and gives a small indication that its spawning would help pvp.

17 hours ago, Darklords said:

Incentives to live on PvP servers

My thoughts are a little scattered but I think scaling bonuses might be the way to go as others have discussed. Improvement speed might be a quality of life thing that would help get people back into the fight quicker. The horse breeding has been a great help. I remember wiping and knowing we couldn't pvp for 1-2 weeks because no horses.

 

TLDR

Yes to scaling bonus for playing on pvp

Yes to faster imping on pvp

Yes to moving supply depots

 

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1 minute ago, Olloch said:

Improvement speed might be a quality of life thing that would help get people back into the fight quicker.

Improvement speed should be a no-brainer at this point. Items can't leave Defiance and since horses are fixed the next bottleneck to getting people back in the fight is usually gear for those horses.

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14 minutes ago, Sovos said:

Improvement speed should be a no-brainer at this point. Items can't leave Defiance and since horses are fixed the next bottleneck to getting people back in the fight is usually gear for those horses.

So very much agreed here. I'm right now imping shoes. Will do nothing today and it will likely be needed sooner again than I imagine. PVP server should be about the fun of roaming and get kills and getting killed.

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37 minutes ago, Sovos said:

Improvement speed should be a no-brainer at this point. Items can't leave Defiance and since horses are fixed the next bottleneck to getting people back in the fight is usually gear for those horses.

This.

 

Horseshoes are harder to imp than other blacksmithing items iirc, and on top of that you need 4 for every horse.

 

if 22 people die, thats 88 horseshoes you need remade, reimped, and recasted. -- not including backup gear or bardings or saddles.

 

The problem is striking a balance where if your kingdom wipes you arent chained to a forge for a week, but also maintaining difficulty enough where the gear is meaningful.

Edited by Morathi

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20 minutes ago, Morathi said:

if 22 people die, thats 88 horseshoes you need remade

Somewhere a blacksmith is imping 88 shoes right now

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if items could cross between pve and pvp that would take a lot of the load off players by being able to purchase gear or deed mats instead of gather/make them yourself. it would also give defiance an active market which would be cool

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22 minutes ago, JamesSnow said:

if items could cross between pve and pvp that would take a lot of the load off players by being able to purchase gear or deed mats instead of gather/make them yourself. it would also give defiance an active market which would be cool

 

Don't see how this would help Defiance though? Most players it feels like would just take the good loot or rare stuff they recreate and go to PvE to sell it where there's a bigger market? 

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