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Darklords

PvP Discussion #3

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1 minute ago, FireHeart said:

Ok yeah lol, I was curious how we were getting people to like 25% 3 times and each time they would get healed completely. I wonder if its just from Scorn or if lof also has the same affect.


worth testing!

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7 hours ago, Darklords said:

Incentives to live on PvP servers

We have seen a lot of concern about people living on PvE servers and only coming to PvP when needed for PvP. Looking for feedback on what might make you more willing to stay on the PvP server instead of living on PvE for the conveniences there.

 


Sindusk already linked my thread on this, but here it is again:

 

 

In short, the main reasons people mainly play on the PvE servers are the increased skillgain, and the ability to sell the things you create for silver.

 

The former is partly due to the latter, as you are able to use the silver you make on Freedom's active market to purchase even more sleep bonus, thus increasing skillgain. But as well as that, on PvE you have many more Rites; due to multiple servers and larger concentrations of vynora priests, you have Wisdom of Vynora (which is also bugged due to the fixed 10 hours of fatigue, it's also of course inaccessible to BL priests on Defiance), and soon there will be path of Knowledge level 11, granting a 25% bonus to skill gain, that you can not achieve on Defiance. 

 

My most recent suggestion to partly counter this was to passively increase skillgain on Defiance, but not have that increase linked to a specific meditation path. If it was linked to a specific meditation path, and the specific path was not the "PvP-meta path", then people would still choose to skill on freedom, and instead choose the PvP-meta path on Defiance. Instead I suggested linking the passive skill gain increase to overall meditation skill, but there are of course many other ways this could be done. 

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tentacles which i honestly have no idea what gap it's trying to fill, being a spell that deals damage over time in an aoe though bypassing armor?

it's just like fungus trap, it's just another pillar.

libila priest's drain health is a top tier spell, not for horses but to slow players. It's definitely in my top 5 pvp spells personally.
I still think Vynora should have Tornado reworked as a viable instant-damage AoE ( make damage similar to painrain and put the timer in the 10 second mark (painrain is 7) currently it's 30 second cast and never used - better yet put tornado at 12s and painrain at 10s it's strong )

Pillars damage is undertuned. Right now characters are as weak as they're going to get, and we're already back to tanking pillars. 
You could double the damage they're currently doing, and it still wouldn't impact the fights much. They're mostly for hurting status as-is.

a tick of fungus trap like two weeks ago comparison:
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tick
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and another

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Edited by Groot

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i'd like to add that while 100% we should aim to add more sources of skillgain on defiance in order to balance it out with the economy of freedom/skillgain bonuses in freedom, we should look at doing it in more ways than just sleep bonus/flat gains from skills

1. Affinities used to be a pvp-centric thing and now are more global. Having more chances to gain affinities (and more importantly, choosing who gets an affinity) from events would be great. Doubly so, as affinities from defiance do NOT transfer over to pve servers.
2. A secondary method of increasing experience that stacks with sleep bonus - this is primarily because the change in the other thread: "This will be coming together with a sleep bonus merge between Defiance and the PvE servers of the Northern Freedom Isles - your sleep bonus will cross through when using the PvP portal, so that you can use it where you want to."   which means that if there are sources of SB on defiance, people might just grab those when they can and return to pve to skill- which is the opposite of what we want.

 

1 minute ago, Groot said:

it's just like fungus trap, it's just another pillar.

libila priest's drain health is a top tier spell, not for horses but to slow players. It's definitely in my top 5 pvp spells personally.
I still think Vynora should have Tornado reworked as a viable instant-damage AoE ( make damage similar to painrain and put the timer in the 10 second mark (painrain is 7) currently it's 30 second cast and never used - better yet put tornado at 12s and painrain at 10s it's strong )

Pillars damage is undertuned. Right now characters are as weak as they're going to get, and we're already back to tanking pillars. 
You could double the damage they're currently doing, and it still wouldn't impact the fights much. They're mostly for hurting status as-is.


feels really weird for vynora to have two aoe damage spells, honestly- i think tentacles is wasted design space that something more interesting could be done with.

i'd love to see some spells integrate mechanics we've seen on mobs too- why not have tentacles deal low damage, but randomly throw enemies inside of it far away similar to nogumps, for example?

tornado being a pain-rain esque spell would be neat, don't disagree there at all.
in general i'd also like to see more functions out of spells- what if ice pillar also slowed attack speed (with a debuff similar to web armor, just make sure they don't stack), and fire pillar was the main 'aoe damage over time' spell that just did much more damage than other aoe spells, and fungus trap had some sort of additional mspeed penalty, or caused people to suffer more damage etc etc. Not that these specific effects would be balanced, but the idea of giving them more of a niche would be cool.

I'll still hold that i'd rather have big aoe heal/damage spells be small, rather than impactful. The hurting status is plenty great from these spells, and i think i wouldn't want to see a meta where they do much more damage (unless that was their intent, and other spells did something else as above).

(also, definitely agreed about drain health- i just wanted more to say that that's basically THE main use for drain health, rather than actually draining health)

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6 minutes ago, RainRain said:

in general i'd also like to see more functions out of spells- what if ice pillar also slowed attack speed (with a debuff similar to web armor, just make sure they don't stack), and fire pillar was the main 'aoe damage over time' spell that just did much more damage than other aoe spells, and fungus trap had some sort of additional mspeed penalty, or caused people to suffer more damage etc etc. Not that these specific effects would be balanced, but the idea of giving them more of a niche would be cool.

I like that suggestion personally. something like

ice pillar:
further reduces movement speed while on the pillar additionally, as if the tile is something with a bad MS modifier. Doesn't need to be clay/tar, but something worse than dirt (this makes the spell especially useful on roads) Damage negligable

fire pillar:
buff damage to triple current values

fungus trap: 60% of the movement speed debuff icepillar gives, 60% of the bonus damage fire pillar recieves

tentacles:
probably just similar to fungus trap unless better suggestion; throwing would never work unless at a minimum disabled around deeds.

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A personal peeve of mine is that fast long range spells across most priests can inflict hurting status from a distance.

 

Hurting status is one of the most op things in pvp. Ranged abilities should have a way for the players to be able to block rather than relying on the fail chance of the enemy or your soul stats (I forget which, or if it's actually a thing)

 

I feel these faster spells shouldn't inflict hurting or hurting status should scale rather than being 30 seconds flat.

 

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if you have no way to inflict hurting status easier, then you have no way to catch people out. in a world where that becomes an issue, then pvp becomes far less common as people will always escape on their 35-45km/h turbo horses that will close the combat window before you can get a swing on their horses.

also, generally such spells have a much shorter range than bows do anyways so i don't think it's that big of a deal.

(the soul stat related to spell defense is soul str btw)


now if i really wanted to get controversial what if i suggested that AOE spells also affected neutral mobs on them (aka horses)

alternatively, any horse mounted or lead by a player counts as a kingdom creature (just like tamed ones)

Edited by RainRain

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Sorry, My argument is mostly for hurting status is mostly for players (on foot) and not their mounts. Archery I can aim my shield in the direction to stop it. I can't do that with spells. Arguable that someone on horse will catch me up anyway but that's the point. If I have a distance lead, I don't think other people on foot should have a guaranteed method of catching up just by tagging people with a ~5 second timer. Sometimes players *should* be able to get away, even in foot.

 

Obviously this is more of a niche situation change.

I still think 30 second hurting status baseline means you can't add other things in the game that applys movement speed slows as it's intention because they wouldn't be as good.

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I think skill bonuses and such should be focused around "outdoors" activities, not deed activities. For example: 

 

- Hunting: probably the best cause of PvP. There are so many ways to make it more appealing to go out and hunt, like skill bonuses, interesting drops etc

- Road building: increase skill for off-deed paving to incentivize creating road infrastructure

- Tower building: increase skill for attaching and reward participants for finishing a tower

- Grindy gathering skills: increase skill/result ql for outside-kingdom mining, digging, woodcutting etc to encourage people to look further for resources

 

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2 hours ago, RainRain said:

pretty sure it isn't working for any spell that removes wounds outright, at least it doesn't for scorn considering i had 75% heal reduc (15m duration or so) and i still had 3 wounds of 25+ healed, bringing me from near dead to full hp

Speaking of scorn. The fact it heals untamed horses is rather ridiculous.

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Remove priest restrictions. There I said it. Everyone wants it. Why do you think we're all on pve? You have to be a priest on pvp it's a must. But no one wants their account to be gimped so we have to grins on pve.

 

Also increase boat speed on pvp and pve. No one roaming on boats arm because it's so freaking slow.

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55 minutes ago, AceRifle said:

Remove priest restrictions. There I said it. Everyone wants it. Why do you think we're all on pve? You have to be a priest on pvp it's a must. But no one wants their account to be gimped so we have to grins on pve.

 

Also increase boat speed on pvp and pve. No one roaming on boats arm because it's so freaking slow.

Making everyone super similar would be so boring for the gameplay. If anything slightly nerfs to priests

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1 hour ago, Joemog said:

Making everyone super similar would be so boring for the gameplay. If anything slightly nerfs to priests

It would bring more people a nerf would kill the game even more

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5 minutes ago, AceRifle said:

It would bring more people a nerf would kill the game even more

How would it bring more people? I'm sure not many want to grind channeling and faith.

Non-priest viability would kinda just mean its easier to jump into.

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i think if a deed becomes unchained then they should lose their raid window protection and be raidable until they rechain their deed

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5 minutes ago, Joemog said:

How would it bring more people? I'm sure not many want to grind channeling and faith.

Non-priest viability would kinda just mean its easier to jump into.

People don’t want to have a priest account for pvp and a crafting account. Being a priest is an always will be a requirement for pvp. A lot of people aren’t playing because of that and I know myself and the majority of my group are about to stop playing because of it. Y’all bout to see another dead sever.

 I’m ok with removing priest and spells altogether minus woa/coc

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Dunno about that. Myself and many in BL doing just fine with Priest/crafter split. No issue having a second account either. 

 

If anything, the restrictions give non priests more of an ability to surpass priests in areas like body stats, leveling the field if not by a little. Those crafting skills you level on Pve do nothing for you on pvp except body stats. So removing the restrictions would just widen the gap between priests and non priests

 

+1 for keeping priest restrictions 

 

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HotA win should not be determined by the fact that you can grab 4 camps than no-one is there to contest them. It should be something like a point system, and if you reach say 2k points, you win. You will get 1 point for every Minute you own 4 Camps (or better make it camps - 3 points for every minute), so roughly a day to hold them. If you fall below 4 the count will just stop - and if you loose all 4, the count should tick down at something like 10 per minute until 0. Number of points is obviously adjustable.

 

Regarding Raid Timers, i dont think they should be changed. Especially considering that more than 6 hours is really hard for most players to play on a daily basis already, so increasing the timer will just result in more players leaving because their deed got raided while they could not defend it.

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6 hours ago, Groot said:

i didn't realize you expected me to write you a guide on basic game mechanics and strategy

 

Still waiting on actual feedback. 

 

As it stands, everyone thinks everyone is baiting and just runs home anyway. Knowing if the enemy has a roughly similar size group to your roaming group would encourage engagement. Its reasonable to assume Muck maybe had back up a couple days ago, but also watching 8 people decend on one person because they thought he was baiting was also pretty silly and speaks to the current pvp culture. I could see a pendulum change addressing this. 

 

As it stands there's barely any pvp anyway unless its an absolute wipe because of numbers game. Addressing that knowledge gap could alleviate the issue.. Hell, you could still have people in mines if you were trying to lay a trap on an unsuspecting person and/or group.. maybe counter balance a buffed pendulum by making it not pick up people in mines. 

 

You could possibly reduce pendulum range too in this scenario, that way people could even be farther out to spring a trap but not as effectively close by to immediately counter. 

 

In the instance of running into a small group then, its up to the opposing kingdom how they want to respond. If it means waiting to engage until you can overwhelm them with large numbers rather than take the fight with similar numbers then at that point, it's a culture difference.

Edited by Melros
Expanding argument

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8 minutes ago, Melros said:

Dunno about that. Myself and many in BL doing just fine with Priest/crafter split. No issue having a second account either. 

 

If anything, the restrictions give non priests more of an ability to surpass priests in areas like body stats, leveling the field if not by a little. Those crafting skills you level on Pve do nothing for you on pvp except body stats. So removing the restrictions would just widen the gap between priests and non priests

 

+1 for keeping priest restrictions 

 

Thats cool whats your idea to bring more people into the game?  I can guarantee you removing restrictions will have more of a positive impact on the player base.

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6 minutes ago, AceRifle said:

Thats cool whats your idea to bring more people into the game?  I can guarantee you removing restrictions will have more of a positive impact on the player base.

That's not an actual argument. Fact is that removing priest restriction will bring in more complications and more requirements for pvp, not less, because of the need to grind faith and channeling.

Edited by Joemog
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I think we are at the stage of Defiance where it's starting the decline in activity and players. We went from 400, 300, now around 250-200. It's always fun at the start, and that momentum never carries over. A lot of players now play only on the PvE servers to craft and sell goods, and portal over when there's PvP. The problem is that so many with that playstyle there just becomes less of an appeal to be on a PvP server with under 200 people, and even less chance to find someone to kill. Why bother playing on Defiance if you can skill everything up safely on PvE then portal over just for PvP? It really is kind of the dumber choice to only play exclusively on Defiance. It's just more risk and no reward. The sad truth is though any perks you give a PvP server because the majority of Wurm Online's playerbase is on the PvE servers, they're the majority that gets heard and catered because they drive the biggest revenue for the game. We barely have anything left that's exclusive only to us. 

 

You're not going to make anyone happy with touching priest spells. Yes, some spells suck, and yes some are strong. Do I think Libila's should be stronger? Yes. It's not because I play HotS, its is because that Vyn, Mag, and Fo have around 30-35 spells. Together that's a collective 90 spells in a WL kingdom. Libila probably has half or less of that many spells. Yes, if we're going to be limited to having a single God choice, that single choice should balance well against all three. 

 

As for HotA, I personally think you should try to combine the old HotA with the new. In example having a timed event, but still utilizing the battlecamps. Perhaps instead of one tower every 25 hours, 6 spawn at once, so there's more incentive to get people out as soon as possible searching for battlecamps rather than slowly capping them over a week's time. Yes, it means you're going to reduce the window to encourage people to go off deed to a single event rather than over the course of a week, but no one is really having many fights for battle camps right now. Most people who win do it uncontested. I think with having many spawn across the map at once you have to strategize more. Do you wait for enemies? Do you go as one big group? Do you split up? 

 

I don't think really have any comment on the other points because I think they're fine. No ones tried to raid. Minedoors just promote safety. We'll go back to the old days of carrying a mallet, planks, and nails, and walling the enemy in. The only thing not included there is that when you lose 20+ people in a fight... it's a ###### ton of gear to replace. It's hard. 20 people die, each on a horse, that's 80 horseshoes not including any backup horses. 180 pieces of armor. Maybe the boost for Defiance or PvP servers is that smithing after 50ql is doubled. So it's much faster to improve items quickly to higher quality, and it's not such a strain on crafters to have to create so much armor and gear. Gear can't transfer so who cares if we're able to make it higher quality faster over here? 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Threap said:

 

Remove the incentives to go to pve server:-

Remove all priest restrictions on pvp servers.

Allow rank 11 POK on pvp for the skill gain bonus.

 

 

One of the things lost from the old hota system is a predictable time when enemy would likely be in a certain area. Currently even living in the center of the map, with no Hell horses or unicorn options as mounts it just takes too long to get anywhere. We see an enemy capping in the west, that's a 30+ minute ride even if you know the exact location of the tower and its a 10 mins to cap, the rewards for a single tower cap makes it barely worth doing unless you can manage to cap 4.

 

As a slight rework of hota here is an idea.

Make just 1 random tower

Give the tower a light. so we know where its at.

Make the spawn a predictable timer like old hota.

To Win you have to cap and hold the cap for 1 hour.

 

Give us fast mounts, going 25 to 30 km sucks, the lower weight cap of regular horses sucks, the variance in speed due to lower soul strength sucks. I miss my 44 KM rare gear hellhorse.


To remove priest restrictions on pvp servers would just cause everyone to be priest which is something they want to balance so that there is a reason NOT to be priest on pvp.

But you are right that there is a problem with ppl going to pve to skill things they cant since they are priests on pvp but not on the pve server. But you are looking at solving the issue in the wrong way, simply make priests on pvp keep faith and your diety on pve and if they depriest they lose it on pvp too, this will prevent ppl from staying on pve, it will also  fix the issue were everyone goes Vynora for the skill gain bonus and hence staying on pve to keep the bonus while skilling.

The only problem I see with staying priest on both servers is that ppl would benefit more from sermons on pve then pvp, this could be fix with maybe disabling sermons from working after using the pvp portal for 24h 

Edited by Nocturnes

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