Hanel

Never Night

Recommended Posts

i like how apparently it matters how we lived irl to understand the difference between "hard to see" and "not hard to see" on a simulated digital screen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, RainRain said:

i like how apparently it matters how we lived irl to understand the difference between "hard to see" and "not hard to see" on a simulated digital screen

 

I just wished to explain why the perfect night sky should look like it looks in game, I had no hidden agenda, but if someone wants to find one they surely will. I am out of this discussion. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As said. polemics are neither helpful nor constructive.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Platyna said:

 

I just wished to explain why (my) perfect night sky should look like it looks in game, I had no hidden agenda, but if someone wants to find one they surely will. I am out of this discussion. 

 

fixed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Basically, for me, nights are distinguishable from days, but are still easily bright enough for navigating without the need for a light source.  So for me nigthtime is just a difference in ambience (see what I did there?) rather than functionally less visibility.

 

I am all for games that have genuine, stumble about, can't-see-a-foot (no, wait that's a hand) darkness, especially 1st person games.  There are two problems with this notion in Wurm.  Firstly, both the timescale and people's global times are an issue.  The timescale ensures that everyone can experience both day and night, otherwise some people would ALWAYS be in the dark, but it also means that players who do not find nighttime functional have no way to reliably avoid it.  Secondly, Wurm is just not the kind game (to me, is a survival/crafter/sandpit) that lends itself well to long periods of "feel your way".  The fact is that in Wurm we carry on a lot of ordinary activities (weeding the garden, digging holes, laying pavers, cutting down trees) that IRL we just wouldn't do outdoors at nighttime unless we are the sort of person Anthony Perkins would play in a movie.  Because we can only play when we can play, nighttime visibility must remain functional for every player.  That probably means either having nights that are bright or having nights that are easily adjustable.  

 

"Make nights darker" is simply not going to be workable for many players.

Edited by TheTrickster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Platyna said:

 

This is because it differs from a computer to a computer, this is why it shouldn't be set darker by default, but maybe some proper adjustment on the client should be  made available. This is how do night looks for me, even with proprietary Nvidia Driver, max brightness settings in Wurm. Second photo is a view on the construction site, and also shows how little light lanterns give, and it is on deed. Make it even one notch darker and I will need to forget about working on slopes or travelling at night. I am also an ASD person, with sensory hypersensitivity (I need to wear ear plugs or special earphones with active noise reduction and special glasses when going outside in most cases), so my screen brightness is usually max 50%, when I started to play Wurm it was so dark I had to put my screen brightness at max, but when I did it white elements, including text, caused headaches and lacrimation, and if I wanted to e.g. use a browser or a text editor I had to put it back at 50% which was annoying. In a present state I can use my computer normally. 

 

  Hide contents

WPHJMA4.png

 

  Reveal hidden contents

nP2mEvp.png

 

  Reveal hidden contents

w3mYUzw.png

 

Potato quality camera incoming but anyway
gVxGJP9.png


What you are having issues with and most of those who have proper dark nights vs those who dont isnt a driver issue its not a graphics card issue its a monitor panel issue like i hinted at before older panels(early flat screens) generally arent as good at showing dark spots as newer panels and they where designed to just show "good quality and thats it" pixels which leads to the blacks in wurm and a few other games not really being "dark" as that info is lost

Now when i throw wurm on my benq sw2700pt (https://www.benq.com/en-us/monitor/photographer/sw2700pt.html) monitor on the same system(just drag wurm from my old viewsonic monitors to there) the nights are properly dark and you can barely see anything(same on my laptop) because well dark colors are properly shown on that monitor

So this really comes down to how wurm and a few other games render their "darkness" that makes the monitors act up against it is not so much a wurm issue as it is a "hey wurm is using what the rest of the industry uses as mindset for making nights dark" thing or along those lines and its our monitors that are just shitty at showing blacks

Basically any new monitor that is a model from the last 3-4 years will render wurm in proper blacks(unless cheap as hell monitor) 
So in short contrast ratio is garbage on monitors from the past and certain cheap ones today leading wurm and other games to look like its day time with a "darkness filter on textures and sun is gone" applied when its night time where as other models
And you basically have a monitor that can display blacks properly vs us having monitors that can not or could maybe given enough tweaking of settings and color accuracy tools are used to tweak its range but again a lot of hassle

Or in simple terms tn vs va vs ips/pls/ahva panel differences with va panels having better colors then tn at a higher contrast and range of colors they can display(and wurm dark nights vs wurm late afternoon)

Now incase anyone is curious gaming on my sw2700pt compared to my ancient ViewSonic's VX2453mh is such a weird thing you go from what you might be used to of years of gaming to "hey i didnt know this game actually looked this amazing"
I got 2 of the vx2453's 1 is a first gen the other is a 3rd gen and even between the 2 the 3rd gen was always a bit more crisp but going from that to the my new benq its like good god i was blind before and now i can see anyway playing wurm on it doesnt do it justice as the game just doesnt have it in it to look amazing but even then it looks a lot better then before



So tldr its your monitor that makes wurm nights either pitch black or like a grey afternoon but its wurm's changes over the years to how it renders night time that cause this to be a thing
Now what they should focus on is fog as i miss my fog :(

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am playing on Dell Precision 7510 - it is an amazing computer, I think the best one I ever worked on, and I love it wholeheartedly because it is a reliable workhorse, and my screen is working perfectly fine. As I already mentioned, several times, these screenshots shows the perfectly acceptable nighttime, dark enough. I pasted other screenshots that show how does the night looks on a different graphic card on the same machine. This issue was reported by many people, especially on Intel cards, and the developers made the nights brighter. I had a problem with Wurm client at night, it was fixed, it is working fine, I would like it to stay like that. 

Edited by Platyna
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I cant understand is, if "darker" nights are going to make the game unplayable for some, why isnt it a problem in mines for these players?

 

At the moment in my humble view we could remove lights from the game as we only really get dusk outdoors ( my deed doesnt have lights atm as its not needed above ground ), I want to see lights become useful and needed items where the ql matters, even my 15ql lamp does me fine in the darkest caves.

 

Just make sure lighting is working as intended before making the nights a little darker and we have the perfect solution, I mean highways and roads tend to have lights on so are light, deeds also, so the only place thats going to have a small darkness issue anyway is the deep forests and on water both which should be a little darker than now imo. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To clarify:

 

The recent updates to night made the night lighter. We intend on addressing this and continuing to tweak it. 

 

There seems to be many people failing to understand that it's also subjective, and experiences dependent on hardware and personal differences. 

 

Please refrain from arguing about whether someone can see in darker light than you. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Retrograde said:

We intend on addressing this and continuing to tweak it. 

We've heard that one before!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Platyna said:

I am playing on Dell Precision 7510 - it is an amazing computer,

2671e0601faf3b43874e061ff665e3e2.png

its 2020 now

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Votip said:

its 2020 now

So you mean that Wurm should not support a computer first sold in 2015/16 and still in sale at Dell? I consider that a perverted view. In my opinion, even a ten+ years old box with sufficient disk and memory should be supported. Spoiled rich brats should not be allowed to rule.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

So you mean that Wurm should not support a computer first sold in 2015/16 and still in sale at Dell? I consider that a perverted view. In my opinion, even a ten+ years old box with sufficient disk and memory should be supported. Spoiled rich brats should not be allowed to rule.

where did i say that

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

Spoiled rich brats should not be allowed to rule.

QKTcqUD.png

i agree

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Platyna said:

I am playing on Dell Precision 7510 - it is an amazing computer

The me from 4 years ago would like to come and steal that please park that outside your house and tell me thank you very much :P (your laptop blows my everyday machine out of the water that i have in my living room and i consider that machine too expensive for its own good)

Jokes aside my explanation was really also to add to why people experience such different experiences as a whole in the first place for others more so really considering a lot of people dont know why their screens are so dark/bright in games and such

 

 

31 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

So you mean that Wurm should not support a computer first sold in 2015/16 and still in sale at Dell? I consider that a perverted view. In my opinion, even a ten+ years old box with sufficient disk and memory should be supported. Spoiled rich brats should not be allowed to rule.

Clearly wurm should just be capped at 15 fps so that those running brand new can experience how it is for people with old pcs :P also from my personal experience most wurmians run nearly decade old machines or 5+ year old laptops anyway with the pcs having 1-2 upgrades here and there
Votip's pc being a prime example of what most would still be running today and another one is my old laptop that i used to play on until it just couldnt anymore i miss the old days where wurm ran at 999 fps on max settings on a 8800gt with a single core cpu and 2gb of ram being a luxury 

Anyway back on topic please fix fog first before we get darker nights again(not that it will affect me as wurm has never been dark on my trusty old viewsonics neither outside nor in caves)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@VotipThis computer has 2x Quad Core Xeon, 64 GB RAM, 2 graphic cards including Nvidia Quadro M1000M, 6 TB SSD storage, and a battery that still allows 4h of work. Not to mention I work in the field and this computer survived being completely wet. Not going to change it just because it is more than a year old. I think I will be using it until I hit some issue that will make me to need a new computer. And you know what? My cellphone is even older - it is 2014, works perfectly, never hangs, battery holds well (and it is not glued in), it has a huge screen, and it landed on the pavement not once. I am strongly against buying a new electronics just because there is newer one, and these new things are usually cosmetics and a different number in model. Most of the rubbish currently on garbage dumps is clothing and electronics, and these things consume a lot of budgets. 

 

@RetrogradeTrue, and I hope it will be taken into consideration and a decent configurability will be introduced, so we can all enjoy our favourite game in full. 

Edited by Platyna
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Retrograde said:

We do want to make it darker, further tweaks will happen. 

Please dont. The game is finally playable for me 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Darker! Let the peasants with their weak constitutions live in the safety of their lanterns, for the rest of us, BRING ON THE NIGHT! I want to dye my armor black and become a night ninja.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, wipeout said:

Potato quality camera incoming but anyway
gVxGJP9.png


What you are having issues with and most of those who have proper dark nights vs those who dont isnt a driver issue its not a graphics card issue its a monitor panel issue like i hinted at before older panels(early flat screens) generally arent as good at showing dark spots as newer panels and they where designed to just show "good quality and thats it" pixels which leads to the blacks in wurm and a few other games not really being "dark" as that info is lost

Now when i throw wurm on my benq sw2700pt (https://www.benq.com/en-us/monitor/photographer/sw2700pt.html) monitor on the same system(just drag wurm from my old viewsonic monitors to there) the nights are properly dark and you can barely see anything(same on my laptop) because well dark colors are properly shown on that monitor

So this really comes down to how wurm and a few other games render their "darkness" that makes the monitors act up against it is not so much a wurm issue as it is a "hey wurm is using what the rest of the industry uses as mindset for making nights dark" thing or along those lines and its our monitors that are just shitty at showing blacks

Basically any new monitor that is a model from the last 3-4 years will render wurm in proper blacks(unless cheap as hell monitor) 
So in short contrast ratio is garbage on monitors from the past and certain cheap ones today leading wurm and other games to look like its day time with a "darkness filter on textures and sun is gone" applied when its night time where as other models
And you basically have a monitor that can display blacks properly vs us having monitors that can not or could maybe given enough tweaking of settings and color accuracy tools are used to tweak its range but again a lot of hassle

Or in simple terms tn vs va vs ips/pls/ahva panel differences with va panels having better colors then tn at a higher contrast and range of colors they can display(and wurm dark nights vs wurm late afternoon)

Now incase anyone is curious gaming on my sw2700pt compared to my ancient ViewSonic's VX2453mh is such a weird thing you go from what you might be used to of years of gaming to "hey i didnt know this game actually looked this amazing"
I got 2 of the vx2453's 1 is a first gen the other is a 3rd gen and even between the 2 the 3rd gen was always a bit more crisp but going from that to the my new benq its like good god i was blind before and now i can see anyway playing wurm on it doesnt do it justice as the game just doesnt have it in it to look amazing but even then it looks a lot better then before



So tldr its your monitor that makes wurm nights either pitch black or like a grey afternoon but its wurm's changes over the years to how it renders night time that cause this to be a thing
Now what they should focus on is fog as i miss my fog :(

Sorry to say but my Monitor is a Brand new 4k and i have bright Nights... so that theory is void.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Caduryn said:

Sorry to say but my Monitor is a Brand new 4k and i have bright Nights... so that theory is void.

tn panels can be "brand new 4k" and have ###### color contrast there are plenty of them out there that drive for high refresh rate and big resolution yet their color accuracy sucks and have a lot of screen blur and are overall okay for general use but beyond that are ###### so please do provide some more info related to what monitor you do have before saying "its void" purely because of a single instance of a single monitor

I can look at 4 monitors and 1 tv that are in my house that are brand new(2019 models for a lot of high end stuff) and all of them display dark nights all tested from the same machine heck even our ancient tv that sits in the living room has bright nights and at the time that tv was expensive an old by now sony bravia tv which where known for being darker early on due to how the panel was driven but it wasnt that good at being color accurate and it shows the same brightness effect in wurm and other games as my viewsonics do

So please do provide some more info as to what monitor it is
Also "i have a sample size of one that confirms your theory is invalid" is not the correct way to go around debunking idea's

Edited by wipeout

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Platyna said:

This computer has 2x Quad Core Xeon, 64 GB RAM, 2 graphic cards including Nvidia Quadro M1000M, 6 TB SSD storage, and a battery that still allows 4h of work. Not to mention I work in the field and this computer survived being completely wet.

The fact that your laptop has two graphics cards, both of which are suited more for rendering jobs, doesn't really weigh in with nights being darker. Not to mention that you may not even have enough VRAM to play the game at higher settings, so many of the lighting and shadow effects might not even register for you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Sovos said:

The fact that your laptop has two graphics cards, both of which are suited more for rendering jobs, doesn't really weigh in with nights being darker. Not to mention that you may not even have enough VRAM to play the game at higher settings, so many of the lighting and shadow effects might not even register for you.

The quadro m1000m has 4gb of gddr5 but its more then enough still for wurm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, wipeout said:

The quadro m1000m has 4gb of gddr5 but its more then enough still for wurm

 

Ah, it's the old, 'my stuff is better than yours so you're wrong and I'm right' gambit. 😉

 

So what you're saying is back in the past when the nights were truly dark it was because we had better equipment years ago but now we have crappy stuff and the nights are not as dark as they were back then. 😆

 

Forgot to mention. In Wurm Unlimited the nights are much darker. So you're telling me that my equipment magically works better with Wurm Unlimited than it does with Wurm Online?

Edited by Hanel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Hanel said:

 

Ah, it's the old, 'my stuff is better than yours so you're wrong and I'm right' gambit. 😉

 

So what you're saying is back in the past when the nights were truly dark it was because we had better equipment years ago but now we have crappy stuff and the nights are not as dark as they were back then. 😆

 

Forgot to mention. In Wurm Unlimited the nights are much darker. So you're telling me that my equipment magically works better with Wurm Unlimited than it does with Wurm Online?

I suggest you read who posted what and find out that i was just adding information to his post to show that even though platyna's machine is a laptop it was a 3700 dollar workhorse of a laptop that was designed as a workstation on wheels with what at the time was a near top of the line quadro card designed specifically for video and photo editing and not so much for gaming but that is besides the point here the card in that laptop is more then enough to still run wurm perfectly fine sure its not on par with a same year release standalone card in terms of raw performance(because of throttling under benchmarks) but that card was at its time a solid laptop card

So what i am saying isnt anything like "in the past we had better gear so nights where dark" thats just stupidity and i feel sorry you try to start such a train of thinking here reserve that for facebook or imgur's comment sections on political/vaccine/religion posts here that just isnt needing


The reason why and this might be a bit hard to understand for you but there has been a major lighting overhaul done to wurm online a update that did not make it to wu and in this update the way that lights(and also shadows and darkness) is rendered has been changed to a more modern way of rendering one that allows for the god awful god rays but also for way better shadows and overall better lighting that can make older textures look better

But as part of this update the way nights are rendered has been changed too and the change to this process affects monitors differently because of a few key points the biggest two though being the difference in color range and max brightness and what this leads to is that what might look "good" on 1 type of monitor might look way to bright or way to dark on another monitor(hence why there is a market for 97%+ color accurate and adobe rgb color accurate monitors) or the colors might be off where 1 dark blue might actually not be as dark on a different panel

A great little chart to show you the difference is this one here shows the color difference of the different panels and their "brightness" as captured by tools that are used to calibrate monitors(something else you could do is use a color calibration tool to try and get the most out of your monitor but buying that can cost a few bucks but if you are like me its a worthy investment to have if you do any work that requires color accuracy)
va-vs-ips.jpg


So again before you try to poke fun and run off on this wild idea of "oh he doesnt know what he is talking about lets go make fun of him" read the topic realize who is replying to who and go have a read up on the changes past wu that happened to wo that could actually affect the game on a per monitor basis and lead to the difference between some people having darker nights then others 

So part of the problem is what panel you have and how it is driven on the hardware side of your panel(how it handles blacks for example is a big thing that some monitor manufacturers struggle with) and also how your monitor is calibrated or lack there off to be as color accurate as possible and yes this can be fixed by a dev on their end yes it will be a bit of work and testing but they can fix it so that everyone can have proper dark nights that arent pitch black where nothing can be seen but still dark enough where a lantern is required

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mean, at some point this is going to wind up in woodscraps as it's more of a discussion about monitors than the game

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now