Hypatia

Cadence Field Preservation Society

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I can't believe I am even suggesting this, since in real life I'm very pro-tree, pro-forest, but is anyone else concerned that one unique feature of Cadence --- it's rolling meadows and grasslands --- will one day become forest?  The grasslands are one of my favorite things about Cadence, both aesthetically and for the extra animal spawns it offers.  

Does anyone else feel the same?  Do you think it's feasible to try and preserve them by periodically cutting back the trees on the edges?

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Sounds like a reasonable idea.  Is there a tile type that could be planted as a boundary, or is it enough for the tile to be grass for it to invite tree spawn?

 

Of course, if we had goats they could eat saplings.

 

Heh, IRL I have about 40Ha of trees, with any clearings that I make rapidly swallowed by white cypress.  Maybe I need goats there, too.

 

EDIT:  I am sure I remember reading that elephants keep the edges of the forest in check.  Let's have elephants.

Edited by TheTrickster

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Grass turns dirt into Steppe; Steppe is more aggressive, but slower, than dirt. Given enough time, steppe will slowly take over.

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10 hours ago, Nekojin said:

Grass turns dirt into Steppe; Steppe is more aggressive, but slower, than dirt. Given enough time, steppe will slowly take over.

 

This post misses the point.   First of all, not all fields and meadows are even near steppe, and second, the grasslands have a different look and feel than the steppes.  Personally, I'd hate if it all turned into steppe.  The grasslands are new and unique to Cadence and part of what makes it beautiful....at least to me.  I wanted to see if anyone else felt the same, and troubleshoot if it seemed at all plausible that we could slow the growth of trees over grasslands.  (Providing not deeded, of course.)  I think we have a year or so of real time before they are significantly diminished, but better to think about it early. 

 

And The Trickster, I don't think there is any way to stop the spread of trees (other than cutting them down) since they spread to nearby tiles not just the next tile over like marsh or steppe.  Though I suppose a wide margin of moss could work without looking too weird (as sand would).  But that would be more trouble than simply cutting down the trees as they come up.  So far the best I could think of is organizing people to watch over local grasslands and cutting the trees while they are young... At least every once in a while.  Enough perhaps to slow the spread of forest over grassland.  It may be inevitable eventually, but I would miss those grasslands and would like to try and keep them for as long as possible.  :) 

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There's a large grassland behind my deed (r13) and I'll do my best to cut trees around the edges to preserve it, need to grind woodcutting anyways :)

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It seems that the best way to protect these grasslands is to create some border between the woodlands and the grasslands - wide enough to prevent tree seeding from crossing it. It wouldn't matter what you use - paving, sand, even steppe would do the trick (more or less). So the question is - how far can a tree fling a new sapling? 

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It looks like the available tile types for trees to self-sprout are grass and flowers.

 

Moss would itself spread and take over the grass lands.  Steppe will spread to dirt tiles, but slower than grass will, and steppe will not spread over a grass tile.  It looks like steppe may be a good boundary, but I am not sure how wide it would have to be.

 

Planting out the boundaries with oak could also be a good move, as they have a slower lifecycle and also because they kill other trees an bushes within 2 tiles.

 

It would still need the "fall back" of keeping an eye on growth and cutting back forests, but hopefully a boundary of say oaks and steppe will keep it manageable.

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3 minutes ago, TheTrickster said:

It looks like the available tile types for trees to self-sprout are grass and flowers.

 

Moss would itself spread and take over the grass lands.  Steppe will spread to dirt tiles, but slower than grass will, and steppe will not spread over a grass tile.  It looks like steppe may be a good boundary, but I am not sure how wide it would have to be.

 

Planting out the boundaries with oak could also be a good move, as they have a slower lifecycle and also because they kill other trees an bushes within 2 tiles.

 

It would still need the "fall back" of keeping an eye on growth and cutting back forests, but hopefully a boundary of say oaks and steppe will keep it manageable.

I was just going to suggest oaks. :)  But yeah steppe does also make sense.  I was afraid that it would spread over grass, but if it doesn't than that is a very good option, that isn't to visually jarring.  Aesthetically oak would be the nicest option, plus the added benefit of making that wood more commonly available.  Perhaps a combination of these ideas could be used, just to add variety.  Combined with maybe encouraging anyone wanting to grind woodcutting to try and focus on trees at the edge of grasslands?

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Ok, after looking through old forum posts it doesn't seem like creating a border wouldn't help as trees have been observed sprouting out several tiles, so it would be a wasted effort.  Unless a dev could clarify a more precise spread width, oak planting and physically cutting back trees seem like the best and only options.  That said is there anyone willing to do this other than me? LOL   I understand that we are all busy on our deeds, and building Cadence infrastructure.  I personally wouldn't start working on this until I have a better handle on my deed projects.  We may lose some of the smaller meadows fairly soon, but if we can at least reasonably hold back tree encroachment from the larger grassland I don't think that is too unreasonable.  It may well turn out that this is too huge a task, and I understand that.  I just felt that we should at least discuss it and try. :)

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May I suggest a twofold approach? Pave a 3-wide perimeter and Highway it so that it stays, then make sure to take out any trees that make it across that gap. That way, you know which trees are encroaching - you don't have to make guesswork choices on what to kill. That'll result in a lot of work up front, then a lot LESS work down the road.

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We could also pick areas already trapped in by highways or planned highways. Drop a sand border along them because that's already a normal look along highways. And then clear out the forrests that exist inside that border.  It may be less natural looking, but it would be easier to maintain.

 

Edit: We could also extend the sand border as necessary to find the jump distance of sprouts.

Edited by Waughee

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11 minutes ago, Nekojin said:

May I suggest a twofold approach? Pave a 3-wide perimeter and Highway it so that it stays, then make sure to take out any trees that make it across that gap. That way, you know which trees are encroaching - you don't have to make guesswork choices on what to kill. That'll result in a lot of work up front, then a lot LESS work down the road.

Honestly, I'm really unsure about the idea of having paving breaking up the scenery.  Also, I'd argue that it's really easy to see the encroaching trees since the newly sprouted areas are much sparser, so you can just cut back until it's thicker, or simply focus on only the newest trees sprouting at the edges (best option that will wear out fewer axes :) )  However, you are totally right about less work later, for the highway idea ...but that's only if it makes a difference at all.  

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It's possible to do highway that doesn't really interfere with the scenery. Unlike most highways, where you tend to want to be at the top of the area, or even a little above it, try doing a depression, no more than 5-10 dirt down, in which the road goes. It won't really be obvious from a distance, it'll give the increased movement benefit of the highway, and whatever sort of seedling defense you can manage from it.

 

It's not ideal, but then nothing is, and IMO the highway would be more beneficial for your intended goal overall than trying to do it with sand or steppe.

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6 hours ago, Nekojin said:

It's possible to do highway that doesn't really interfere with the scenery. Unlike most highways, where you tend to want to be at the top of the area, or even a little above it, try doing a depression, no more than 5-10 dirt down, in which the road goes. It won't really be obvious from a distance, it'll give the increased movement benefit of the highway, and whatever sort of seedling defense you can manage from it.

 

It's not ideal, but then nothing is, and IMO the highway would be more beneficial for your intended goal overall than trying to do it with sand or steppe.

 

Ah, the ha-ha approach.  Very noice.  

 

If the hidden highway is still an aesthetic concern, you could plant the "inside" verge with oaks.  That way you get slow growth with an easy target for cut-back and a nice tree-lined roadway at the same time.  Or even just have the oaks on the outside for a similar ressult.

 

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11 hours ago, Nekojin said:

It's possible to do highway that doesn't really interfere with the scenery. Unlike most highways, where you tend to want to be at the top of the area, or even a little above it, try doing a depression, no more than 5-10 dirt down, in which the road goes. It won't really be obvious from a distance, it'll give the increased movement benefit of the highway, and whatever sort of seedling defense you can manage from it.

 

It's not ideal, but then nothing is, and IMO the highway would be more beneficial for your intended goal overall than trying to do it with sand or steppe.

Sorry, aesthetics aside, my actual main concern is would it even make a difference at all to sprout spread?  If not, than it's a lot of work for no gain. 😕  I suppose we could try it experimentally on a small field to see how effective it is before committing to the idea.  

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I am SO here for this! It's also what I've been in love with on Cadence. I am shocked that my deed (M 17) hasn't sprouted over yet. There is a pretty wide area of sand, maybe that's what's kept the trees at bay? That said, I am working to fill it in with dirt and will be planting steppe, hopefully it will achieve the same effect. 

 

Where are we all located? Perhaps we could assign regions to members and we can periodically travel through our region and cut down any new trees?

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9 hours ago, Hypatia said:

Sorry, aesthetics aside, my actual main concern is would it even make a difference at all to sprout spread?  If not, than it's a lot of work for no gain. 😕  I suppose we could try it experimentally on a small field to see how effective it is before committing to the idea.  

Look at it as a probability project. We know that there's a limit to how far trees will drop saplings, we just don't know how far. Assuming that it only tries once per cycle (that is, the success or failure of the attempt is irrelevant, and it doesn't keep trying random spots if it fails), then any road will lessen the chances that it successfully sprouts.

 

If the distance is 3 tiles, then a 2-wide roadway will prevent sprouting in that direction 66% of the time, and a 3-wide roadway will completely prevent it. If the distance is 5 tiles, then a 2-wide roadway will reduce the speed of its spread by 40%, and a 3-wide roadway will reduce it by 60%.

 

That alone will vastly slow the spread of the trees, even if it doesn't actually stop it.

Edited by Nekojin

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5 hours ago, Raeyn said:

I am SO here for this! It's also what I've been in love with on Cadence. I am shocked that my deed (M 17) hasn't sprouted over yet. There is a pretty wide area of sand, maybe that's what's kept the trees at bay? That said, I am working to fill it in with dirt and will be planting steppe, hopefully it will achieve the same effect. 

 

Where are we all located? Perhaps we could assign regions to members and we can periodically travel through our region and cut down any new trees?

Hello!  I love your enthusiasm! :)   Just out of curiosity, how wide is the sand area at your place?  Regardless,  I think that with a little cutting of the youngest trees alone, we could easily keep the trees at bay.  But only if we have enough people cutting locally/regionally.  I'm a bit NW of Sonata h15-ish.  I could take g and h 15/16/17 for now, and see how much I can realistically handle.   We should really post this in the Steam forums,  but I'm still considering if this is a viable idea or not.  I guess the only way to be sure is to go out and actually try it. :)

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2 minutes ago, Nekojin said:

Look at it as a probability project. We know that there's a limit to how far trees will drop saplings, we just don't know how far. Assuming that it only tries once per cycle (that is, the success or failure of the attempt is irrelevant, and it doesn't keep trying random spots if it fails), then any road will lessen the chances that it successfully sprouts.

 

If the distance is 3 tiles, then a 2-wide roadway will prevent sprouting in that direction 66% of the time, and a 3-wide roadway will completely prevent it. If the distance is 5 tiles, then a 2-wide roadway will reduce the speed of its spread by 40%, and a 3-wide roadway will reduce it by 60%.

 

That alone will vastly slow the spread of the trees, even if it doesn't actually stop it.

Hmm, I do see what you mean, but what if it's not a distance thing?  What if it's just looking for an empty tile?  What if having fewer tiles to choose from doesn't mean anything because if it's going to drop a sprout it will just find the nearest available tile, even if it's the other side of a desert, but just looks at the closest tiles first?  You are probably right, though.  Are you interested in finding a spot to test this idea out?  Personally, I'd like to start hacking at trees and see how that goes. :)  Obviously any idea is going to take months to reveal if it's effective and practical.  Maybe we could each try out our favorite idea locally, and post the outcome here, after a Wurm year or two, and compare notes.

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My plate is likely full for several weeks - building a bridge, finishing the first floor of my deed's housing, building Highways, distributing Catseyes to other highway workers, maybe building other bridges to get the highway connected adequately or to help other players, starting on the second story of our building...

 

The list is long, to say the least.

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I am nomadic, basically looking to trade bits and bobs for access to forges etc as I wander.  I will generally be cutting down "wild" trees anyway, so I will try to make a habit of targeting those edging grasslands.  

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I have a deed that is 100% wild grass and flowers, and never gets any trees.  I put a 1 tile wide gravel path around the grass area to stop ingress, then plant a steppe perimeter at least 10 tiles wide outside the gravel path.  Make sure there are no trees inside this steppe area, and the grass area inside can be as large as you like and will never get any trees, unless deliberately planted.  It's almost maintenance free as you only have to check the steppe border from time to time.  Hope this helps. :) 

Edited by Muse

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