Posted November 16, 2022 On 11/13/2022 at 8:28 AM, Sindusk said: It gave direct access to the multiplier passed through the times parameter and into the skill system. These were then averaged to a 10 second interval, then compared to what was gained from 10 seconds of action bar skilling normally through the skill system. The simulations came out to be around 3x lower than what would be expected in that timeframe if you were skilling something like smithing or mining. Combat skills are all over the place, some combat skills are exceedingly undervalued, though it'd be hard to quantify *exactly* how much they should be worth due to it both being dependant on the strength of the account, whether or not you're using the right gear and the mob density in your area (or able to tank hell scorps for shields). I'm not sure what it is in wu (I'd assume 1 hit = 10s skillgain) but in wo weapon skills are 0.6 seconds of skillgain per 1% of life taken AFTER all forms of mitigation like barding oakshell and creature STR/DR, capping at 30 seconds of skillgain as all things wurm do, so basically hit chance * glance - parries (trolls) and then downtime walking between mobs . if you're in an area of squishy (and as you get stronger, any area really) mobs, skillgain will be multiple times higher than imping or mining or w/e. Interestingly enough, the 30 second cap makes faster weapons faster to skill, like a huge axe will be slower to skill than a staff due to its 1 shot nature on most weak mobs, even though both are 4k difficulty skills. Just as an example, if you have 16 CR with an lt sword and you're fighting a scorpion you're going to have 75% hit rate, *0.7 for glance for 52.5% hit chance, whereas a much stronger toon with 30 cr and a venom weapon you're going to have 87.8% hit chance *1.0 since no glance from venom, so roughly a 60% increase in tick frequency alongside extra damage from being stronger. If you ignore trolls grinding (and you should because they're not worth the time to kill) average cr of mobs is ~10, which your simulator expecting equal fights is vastly overstating as you can get multiple times a non-conditioned mob's cr. I'm not sure if you'd calculate STP off the most efficient way, as many people grind skills in horrible ways, just food for thought. Finn's example of 6 mobs per second isn't really realistic, you can hit peaks of that high but unless you're hunting sporadically on a dead server you're going to deplete areas of mobs and travel time gets longer, if you run through somewhere someone else hunted you're wasting time etc. my logs average 3.8-4.5 mobs per minute on a 85-90 strength acc, mag priest war bonus etc in reasonably dense hunting from nobody else hunting. Example of skillgain from what was a 60 str mag priest at the time (25% skillgain boost, 15% damage boost, about equivalent with pok+vyn for skillgain purposes, using sb whole time), sorted into 1 hours of hunting, counting for >5m downtime from me walking away from pc but not anything smaller than that so these logs might be a bit slower than what's actually possible. Spoiler I was grinding glimmer spears to 8k bt then finishing them by alts so wasn't even using efficient enchants or avoiding trolls, could cut two or three hours off if i was. varying casts, ~70-90 coc and nimb on the spears [2020-03-05] [15:07:36] Long spear increased by 0.3524 to 5.0791 [2020-03-05] [16:06:58] Long spear increased by 0.0969 to 30.5982 [2020-03-05] [17:05:49] Long spear increased by 0.0728 to 42.7518 [2020-03-05] [18:01:42] Long spear increased by 0.0153 to 50.7739 (20 minute break here) [2020-03-05] [19:20:37] Long spear increased by 0.0198 to 55.6206 [2020-03-05] [20:20:42] Long spear increased by 0.0360 to 60.1549 [2020-03-05] [21:20:36] Long spear increased by 0.0207 to 64.5504 [2020-03-05] [22:21:00] Long spear increased by 0.0261 to 67.6150 [2020-03-05] [23:21:27] Long spear increased by 0.0123 to 68.8221 [2020-03-06] [00:21:14] Long spear increased by 0.0219 to 71.2635 [2020-03-06] [01:21:02] Long spear increased by 0.0101 to 72.9466 [2020-03-06] [02:21:08] Long spear increased by 0.0181 to 74.9979 [2020-03-06] [03:21:13] Long spear increased by 0.0113 to 76.8920 [2020-03-06] [04:22:06] Long spear increased by 0.0151 to 78.2241 [2020-03-06] [05:22:48] Long spear increased by 0.0139 to 79.6346 [2020-03-06] [06:05:39] Long spear increased by 0.0048 to 80.0350 Logged here, 15h30m ish on sb for 80, so 31h no sb [2020-03-06] [12:48:16] Long spear increased by 0.0068 to 80.0418 [2020-03-06] [13:48:48] Long spear increased by 0.0124 to 81.4147 [2020-03-06] [14:54:08] Long spear increased by 0.0059 to 82.0700 (half an hour break here) [2020-03-06] [16:28:11] Long spear increased by 0.0113 to 82.7459 [2020-03-06] [17:26:42] Long spear increased by 0.0091 to 83.6642 [2020-03-06] [18:27:03] Long spear increased by 0.0028 to 84.7374 (half an hour break here) [2020-03-06] [19:57:18] Long spear increased by 0.0047 to 84.9149 [2020-03-06] [21:01:47] Long spear increased by 0.0047 to 84.9781 [2020-03-06] [21:27:34] Long spear increased by 0.0027 to 85.0024 8h30m ish for 80-85, 17h no sb Stance skill/mind speed comparison [2020-03-05] [15:09:14] Aggressive fighting increased by 0.0013 to 77.3843 [2020-03-06] [21:28:09] Aggressive fighting increased by 0.0010 to 80.8054 [2020-03-05] [15:09:33] Mind speed increased by 0.0001 to 36.4937 [2020-03-06] [21:27:27] Mind speed increased by 0.0001 to 36.9319 From those logs can see that you can skill weapons multiple times faster than normal skills, and this wasn't even an optimal grinding setup. Stance skills are extremely low value, 100 defensive fighting took me multiple shields to 100 to get, the shields combined stp is 72M but defensive fighting is 5.5M, the long spear grind I posted above is worth more stp than my 96.7 aggressive fighting which according to my logs i've killed ~70k mobs in aggressive fighting, plus whatever the previous owners of silakka did. If you want to compare weapon skills to aggressive fighting skill, i basically never fight in normal fighting and have quite a few >90 weapon grinds on the graph on wurmnode. Realistically aggressive/normal fighting should be worth most of the STP from fighting, not the weapon skills as they're the fastest by far Shield bashing gains drop off a cliff at 50, to the point that they're almost characteristic level of slow to grind. Pre-50 you've got your standard awful 1 tick chance per 30 seconds kind of skillgain, but if your shield bash does damage you get a second tick at 2x the size [21:29:18] Shield bashing increased by 0.0026 to 49.9810 [21:29:18] Shield bashing increased by 0.0052 to 49.9862 Comparing these to a single long spear hit [2020-03-05] [17:57:36] Long spear increased by 0.0534 to 50.4231 a Shield bashing double tick is 0.0078, or 14.6% of a 30 second hit. Shield bashing doesn't use coc so if we halve spear it's roughly 30% of a 30 second, or 10 seconds of skillgain with a double tick, which leaves the single tick at ~3 seconds of skillgain. But after 50 the guaranteed damage tick chance is removed, you only get the first normal size tick, you'll go from getting multiple ticks per minute to 1 tick per two or three minutes assuming you're shield bashing off cooldown Spoiler [2022-08-05] [18:59:46] Shield bashing increased by 0.0019 to 56.2816 [2022-08-05] [19:40:14] Shield bashing increased by 0.0019 to 56.3319 getting 0.05-0.1 an hour on sleep bonus, with an optimal (well, as optimal as you can reasonably make it, you can't give the mobs higher body control or tell an area to only spawn hellhounds) setup. ~25% of shield bashes give a tick Shield bashing >50 should be valued a lot more, unless you're excluding it because the people at the top of the board obviously abused alts in pvp pre-changes to grind it. Assuming you're shield bashing the second it comes off cooldown that puts its at 1 tick chance per 25 seconds (20 second cooldown + 5 second timer). Comparing shield bashing to digging (both 3k diff skills, both on sb, shovel is 90coc) [2022-08-05] [19:40:14] Shield bashing increased by 0.0019 to 56.3319 to [2021-11-03] [14:07:02] Digging increased by 0.0287 to 61.1468 [2021-11-03] [14:07:10] Digging increased by 0.0314 to 61.1782 0.0314/8 gives us 0.003925 per second 0.0019/5 gives us 0.00038 per second, roughly 1/10 skill rate (around 1/12 if you consider digging is 5 points up and the shield bashing tick has mag skill bonus vs priest with no skill bonuses, 1/6 if you remove coc from digging), iirc all fighting subskills get their skillgain halved when they hit 50 alongside some other stuff that just nukes skillgain, you'll find it in combatengine.class. if you add in the maximum time spent of 5 seconds per 25 seconds total, it's 0.0019/5/5 for 7.6e-5 skillgain/second, straight up scientific notation levels of bad I'd disagree with your thoughts that shield bashing grinds normally, it's borderline impossible. Warhammers is counted as normal stp rate, despite the fact that the hammer of mag is a weapon. It also has no coc/nimb and 1 shots basically anything after half a minute of misses so skilling is like 1/10th the rate of a real weapon, but that's less about the skill and more about combat in general. Weaponless fighting is normal stp rate, when it's a weapon(lol) skill, and also multiple times slower than normal weapons alongside requiring being a fo priest or having one stalk you to grind it. Misc items shows up twice, once in tools and once in various. Does it contribute to stp twice? Baking is counted as normal STP rate, when other things that can be panfilled are 0.1x. The skill graph doesn't have an option for characteristics over time Archery works kinda like other weapon skill, you get a small tick chance that's like 1 second of skill worth each time you plus shoot 0.6 seconds of skillgain per 1% damage dealt for hits, but bows hit much weaker than weapons, timer is hard capped at 5s minimum so somewhat slowish, some mobs have ridiculous glance rates, and you have a lot of downtime from collecting arrows/running out of melee range or swapping to melee weapon from mobs walking up to you, so they're much worse to skill than weapons imo 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 16, 2022 8 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said: Combat skills are all over the place, some combat skills are exceedingly undervalued, though it'd be hard to quantify *exactly* how much they should be worth due to it both being dependant on the strength of the account, whether or not you're using the right gear and the mob density in your area (or able to tank hell scorps for shields). I'm not sure what it is in wu (I'd assume 1 hit = 10s skillgain) but in wo weapon skills are 0.6 seconds of skillgain per 1% of life taken AFTER all forms of mitigation like barding oakshell and creature STR/DR, capping at 30 seconds of skillgain as all things wurm do, so basically hit chance * glance - parries (trolls) and then downtime walking between mobs . if you're in an area of squishy (and as you get stronger, any area really) mobs, skillgain will be multiple times higher than imping or mining or w/e. Interestingly enough, the 30 second cap makes faster weapons faster to skill, like a huge axe will be slower to skill than a staff due to its 1 shot nature on most weak mobs, even though both are 4k difficulty skills. Just as an example, if you have 16 CR with an lt sword and you're fighting a scorpion you're going to have 75% hit rate, *0.7 for glance for 52.5% hit chance, whereas a much stronger toon with 30 cr and a venom weapon you're going to have 87.8% hit chance *1.0 since no glance from venom, so roughly a 60% increase in tick frequency alongside extra damage from being stronger. If you ignore trolls grinding (and you should because they're not worth the time to kill) average cr of mobs is ~10, which your simulator expecting equal fights is vastly overstating as you can get multiple times a non-conditioned mob's cr. I'm not sure if you'd calculate STP off the most efficient way, as many people grind skills in horrible ways, just food for thought. Finn's example of 6 mobs per second isn't really realistic, you can hit peaks of that high but unless you're hunting sporadically on a dead server you're going to deplete areas of mobs and travel time gets longer, if you run through somewhere someone else hunted you're wasting time etc. my logs average 3.8-4.5 mobs per minute on a 85-90 strength acc, mag priest war bonus etc in reasonably dense hunting from nobody else hunting. Example of skillgain from what was a 60 str mag priest at the time (25% skillgain boost, 15% damage boost, about equivalent with pok+vyn for skillgain purposes, using sb whole time), sorted into 1 hours of hunting, counting for >5m downtime from me walking away from pc but not anything smaller than that so these logs might be a bit slower than what's actually possible. Reveal hidden contents I was grinding glimmer spears to 8k bt then finishing them by alts so wasn't even using efficient enchants or avoiding trolls, could cut two or three hours off if i was. varying casts, ~70-90 coc and nimb on the spears [2020-03-05] [15:07:36] Long spear increased by 0.3524 to 5.0791 [2020-03-05] [16:06:58] Long spear increased by 0.0969 to 30.5982 [2020-03-05] [17:05:49] Long spear increased by 0.0728 to 42.7518 [2020-03-05] [18:01:42] Long spear increased by 0.0153 to 50.7739 (20 minute break here) [2020-03-05] [19:20:37] Long spear increased by 0.0198 to 55.6206 [2020-03-05] [20:20:42] Long spear increased by 0.0360 to 60.1549 [2020-03-05] [21:20:36] Long spear increased by 0.0207 to 64.5504 [2020-03-05] [22:21:00] Long spear increased by 0.0261 to 67.6150 [2020-03-05] [23:21:27] Long spear increased by 0.0123 to 68.8221 [2020-03-06] [00:21:14] Long spear increased by 0.0219 to 71.2635 [2020-03-06] [01:21:02] Long spear increased by 0.0101 to 72.9466 [2020-03-06] [02:21:08] Long spear increased by 0.0181 to 74.9979 [2020-03-06] [03:21:13] Long spear increased by 0.0113 to 76.8920 [2020-03-06] [04:22:06] Long spear increased by 0.0151 to 78.2241 [2020-03-06] [05:22:48] Long spear increased by 0.0139 to 79.6346 [2020-03-06] [06:05:39] Long spear increased by 0.0048 to 80.0350 Logged here, 15h30m ish on sb for 80, so 31h no sb [2020-03-06] [12:48:16] Long spear increased by 0.0068 to 80.0418 [2020-03-06] [13:48:48] Long spear increased by 0.0124 to 81.4147 [2020-03-06] [14:54:08] Long spear increased by 0.0059 to 82.0700 (half an hour break here) [2020-03-06] [16:28:11] Long spear increased by 0.0113 to 82.7459 [2020-03-06] [17:26:42] Long spear increased by 0.0091 to 83.6642 [2020-03-06] [18:27:03] Long spear increased by 0.0028 to 84.7374 (half an hour break here) [2020-03-06] [19:57:18] Long spear increased by 0.0047 to 84.9149 [2020-03-06] [21:01:47] Long spear increased by 0.0047 to 84.9781 [2020-03-06] [21:27:34] Long spear increased by 0.0027 to 85.0024 8h30m ish for 80-85, 17h no sb Stance skill/mind speed comparison [2020-03-05] [15:09:14] Aggressive fighting increased by 0.0013 to 77.3843 [2020-03-06] [21:28:09] Aggressive fighting increased by 0.0010 to 80.8054 [2020-03-05] [15:09:33] Mind speed increased by 0.0001 to 36.4937 [2020-03-06] [21:27:27] Mind speed increased by 0.0001 to 36.9319 From those logs can see that you can skill weapons multiple times faster than normal skills, and this wasn't even an optimal grinding setup. Stance skills are extremely low value, 100 defensive fighting took me multiple shields to 100 to get, the shields combined stp is 72M but defensive fighting is 5.5M, the long spear grind I posted above is worth more stp than my 96.7 aggressive fighting which according to my logs i've killed ~70k mobs in aggressive fighting, plus whatever the previous owners of silakka did. If you want to compare weapon skills to aggressive fighting skill, i basically never fight in normal fighting and have quite a few >90 weapon grinds on the graph on wurmnode. Realistically aggressive/normal fighting should be worth most of the STP from fighting, not the weapon skills as they're the fastest by far Shield bashing gains drop off a cliff at 50, to the point that they're almost characteristic level of slow to grind. Pre-50 you've got your standard awful 1 tick chance per 30 seconds kind of skillgain, but if your shield bash does damage you get a second tick at 2x the size [21:29:18] Shield bashing increased by 0.0026 to 49.9810 [21:29:18] Shield bashing increased by 0.0052 to 49.9862 Comparing these to a single long spear hit [2020-03-05] [17:57:36] Long spear increased by 0.0534 to 50.4231 a Shield bashing double tick is 0.0078, or 14.6% of a 30 second hit. Shield bashing doesn't use coc so if we halve spear it's roughly 30% of a 30 second, or 10 seconds of skillgain with a double tick, which leaves the single tick at ~3 seconds of skillgain. But after 50 the guaranteed damage tick chance is removed, you only get the first normal size tick, you'll go from getting multiple ticks per minute to 1 tick per two or three minutes assuming you're shield bashing off cooldown Reveal hidden contents [2022-08-05] [18:59:46] Shield bashing increased by 0.0019 to 56.2816 [2022-08-05] [19:40:14] Shield bashing increased by 0.0019 to 56.3319 getting 0.05-0.1 an hour on sleep bonus, with an optimal (well, as optimal as you can reasonably make it, you can't give the mobs higher body control or tell an area to only spawn hellhounds) setup. ~25% of shield bashes give a tick Shield bashing >50 should be valued a lot more, unless you're excluding it because the people at the top of the board obviously abused alts in pvp pre-changes to grind it. Assuming you're shield bashing the second it comes off cooldown that puts its at 1 tick chance per 25 seconds (20 second cooldown + 5 second timer). Comparing shield bashing to digging (both 3k diff skills, both on sb, shovel is 90coc) [2022-08-05] [19:40:14] Shield bashing increased by 0.0019 to 56.3319 to [2021-11-03] [14:07:02] Digging increased by 0.0287 to 61.1468 [2021-11-03] [14:07:10] Digging increased by 0.0314 to 61.1782 0.0314/8 gives us 0.003925 per second 0.0019/5 gives us 0.00038 per second, roughly 1/10 skill rate (around 1/12 if you consider digging is 5 points up and the shield bashing tick has mag skill bonus vs priest with no skill bonuses, 1/6 if you remove coc from digging), iirc all fighting subskills get their skillgain halved when they hit 50 alongside some other stuff that just nukes skillgain, you'll find it in combatengine.class. if you add in the maximum time spent of 5 seconds per 25 seconds total, it's 0.0019/5/5 for 7.6e-5 skillgain/second, straight up scientific notation levels of bad I'd disagree with your thoughts that shield bashing grinds normally, it's borderline impossible. Warhammers is counted as normal stp rate, despite the fact that the hammer of mag is a weapon. It also has no coc/nimb and 1 shots basically anything after half a minute of misses so skilling is like 1/10th the rate of a real weapon, but that's less about the skill and more about combat in general. Weaponless fighting is normal stp rate, when it's a weapon(lol) skill, and also multiple times slower than normal weapons alongside requiring being a fo priest or having one stalk you to grind it. Misc items shows up twice, once in tools and once in various. Does it contribute to stp twice? Baking is counted as normal STP rate, when other things that can be panfilled are 0.1x. The skill graph doesn't have an option for characteristics over time Archery works kinda like other weapon skill, you get a small tick chance that's like 1 second of skill worth each time you plus shoot 0.6 seconds of skillgain per 1% damage dealt for hits, but bows hit much weaker than weapons, timer is hard capped at 5s minimum so somewhat slowish, some mobs have ridiculous glance rates, and you have a lot of downtime from collecting arrows/running out of melee range or swapping to melee weapon from mobs walking up to you, so they're much worse to skill than weapons imo A really detailed post and one with a lot of useful information. Quite a lot to get to, mostly what I've highlighted in bold. Everything that is not in bold generally revolves around tick sizes or optimal skilling methods. This is skewed by the existence of skill gain multipliers and the usage of tick size/rate instead of skill per time. To quote Chakron's original explanation: Quote -that last 10 seconds -without affinities -without coc -without vynora (10% skill gain bonus) -without path of knowledge -at 50% nutrition -without sleep bonus -with an expected 100% tick rate STP is based around the amount of time spent on the action timer, but not in the most efficient way. It does not consider positive influences like skill gain multipliers, sweet spot, and tick rates. It also doesn't consider hinderances such as cooldowns or infrequency of use (like exorcism). STP as a whole will never be perfect, and should be used not as a definitive measure of investment, but instead a way to contextualize the numbers displayed on an account to a reasonable degree. Weapon skills can be skilled faster in isolation than a normal skill, that's undeniable. When in combat and dealing significant portions of creature health, you're going to see massive tick sizes that raise the average skill/time for weapons. It's even possible to gain 60 seconds of skill gain every ~6 seconds. This is obviously a flawed way to assume that players skill weapons, and giving a 0.1x multiplier on weapon skills just because you can get that amount of skill in short periods of time would be frowned upon heavily. The key here is to figure out a proper assumption for how much weapon skill is gained over a 10 second interval. This amount changes based on how much damage you're outputting, and that's where the simulation assumption has failed the calculations here. Everything I see in your post is correct as far as I'm aware, and I'm not in denial of what is absolutely true and exists in the game. But how much damage should be expected to be dealt to a creature over 10 seconds of combat? 10%? 50%? 100%? This type of assumption must be made at some level in order to keep the system sane. Weapons are not 1:1 with normal skills, I think everyone can agree on that. But to what degree? As you stated, the combat skill gained changes dramatically based on the CR differential compared to the opponent. Should we assume the player has higher CR than the opponent? It's becoming increasingly clear that players are seeing the value of combat skills is too high right now, and I'm inclined to agree based on the evidence provided. I can see several approaches: Solution 1: A simple mathematical improvement for existing simulation data would be to assume the player has double the CR of the opponent. This would lead to a 2/3 hit chance instead of a 1/2 hit chance. We can reflect this in the multipliers by reducing combat skills to 3/4 of their existing values to simulate the increase in hit chance. This would bring all the combat skills that are 3x to 2.25x, and the 2x skills to 1.5x. Upsides: No additional work required to be done, simply a change of assumption that should be mathematically accurate, while still reflecting the increased difficulty of leveling weapon skills. Downsides: This is still fairly generic and doesn't actually solve the root of the problem that combat is quite dynamic in nature. Solution 2: Remove all multipliers on the combat skills and reset them to 1x. Upsides: Removes any bias, simulation, or external thoughts from the process and allows the game system to determine the value of the skill. Downsides: Combat skills are definitely slower to skill than normal skills, and this would result in devaluing combat skills in the STP calculations compared to actual time spent to acquire them. Solution 3: Zero out combat skills and remove them from STP calculations altogether. Upsides: Keeps the STP system technically accurate, as it's meant to simulate actions on the action timer, not combat skills in combat. Downsides: Removes a huge portion of the game from the STP calculations. For me, solution 3 isn't really a solution. Either of the first two options seems relatively reasonable at this stage. To The Bolded Points I bolded several sections of your post and want to respond to each one individually here. Stance skills being extremely undervalued: This is definitely true. Stance skills are currently under their proper value. I can't recall why they don't have the combat multiplier and don't remember how stance skills advance in combat. I can look at that. Shield bashing over 50 should be valued more: I believe this uses the action timer, so it was simply left alone. Skilling methods, cooldowns, etc. are ignored in STP calculations. If it doesn't use the action timer for its times parameter, then it can be adjusted accordingly. Misc Items showing up twice: That would need to be answered by Drogos. Baking being panfilled: I recall this being mentioned to me, and saying I would fix that. Then I didn't. It'll be in the next iteration. Skill graph characteristics over time: Another one for Drogos. Archery: I believe this also uses the action timer, which is why it was also left alone. Skilling methods, cooldowns, etc are ignored in STP calculations. If it doesn't use the action timer for it's times parameter, then it can also be adjusted accordingly. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 16, 2022 6 hours ago, Sindusk said: Solution 2: Remove all multipliers on the combat skills and reset them to 1x. Upsides: Removes any bias, simulation, or external thoughts from the process and allows the game system to determine the value of the skill. Downsides: Combat skills are definitely slower to skill than normal skills, and this would result in devaluing combat skills in the STP calculations compared to actual time spent to acquire them. I have to say, thank you for all of your replies here Sindusk and for engaging with everyone who has replied in the thread so far - I think the Wurmnode STP system is going to end up being as good as it can get, at least without doing a ton of work to simulate the entire game from scratch (which is a super unrealistic amount of effort to put in anyway.) (Sidenote: I hope I didn't come off as aggressive in my post earlier - I'm only so concerned about this system because one way or another, Wurmnode will become the new "leaderboard" of sorts for Wurm accounts, and I think it's important that it's accurate.) Came here to say that I'd be in favour of Solution 2 for now. In the same way that cooking skills can be panfilled to turbo-grind them, it's very possible and doable to grind combat skills in extremely optimal ways, especially for accounts with high body stats who can consistently do large hits on mobs even with small weapons. I think it's safer for now to just leave it as-is with the default skill difficulty values. There are just so many factors to consider - account strength/CR, opponent mob strength/CR, density of mobs, weapon swing timer, the fighting stance being used, and more... for now, I think removing external thoughts and biases is the fairest thing, until some hypothetical future research could be done that could definitively make a fairer way of weighting the skills (which may be impossible anyway, being realistic.) A way to partly implement Solution 3 that has been thrown around before could be done on the feature-side by Drogos or another contributor to the project code. There could be multiple STP totals, e.g.: one for all combat skills, one for all crafting skills, a total for the account but not including characteristics, etc... meaning that nerfs and buffs to balance total STP for very different parts of the game wouldn't have to matter as much. Total STP is probably always going to be an absolute pain to balance; but "characteristics STP", "imping STP" etc. are STP totals for similar parts of the game that are already balanced. It would also let us answer some really cool questions, like: "who has the best crafting account?", etc. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 17, 2022 Niarja calculated STP by comparing to a lookup table that was just the output of simulations from the Skill Grinder web tool, then multiplying by skill difficulties. That's it. Seeing it "win" in fights against Sindusk's updated STP is 👍 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 17, 2022 8 hours ago, Docterchese said: I have to say, thank you for all of your replies here Sindusk and for engaging with everyone who has replied in the thread so far - I think the Wurmnode STP system is going to end up being as good as it can get, at least without doing a ton of work to simulate the entire game from scratch (which is a super unrealistic amount of effort to put in anyway.) (Sidenote: I hope I didn't come off as aggressive in my post earlier - I'm only so concerned about this system because one way or another, Wurmnode will become the new "leaderboard" of sorts for Wurm accounts, and I think it's important that it's accurate.) Came here to say that I'd be in favour of Solution 2 for now. In the same way that cooking skills can be panfilled to turbo-grind them, it's very possible and doable to grind combat skills in extremely optimal ways, especially for accounts with high body stats who can consistently do large hits on mobs even with small weapons. I think it's safer for now to just leave it as-is with the default skill difficulty values. There are just so many factors to consider - account strength/CR, opponent mob strength/CR, density of mobs, weapon swing timer, the fighting stance being used, and more... for now, I think removing external thoughts and biases is the fairest thing, until some hypothetical future research could be done that could definitively make a fairer way of weighting the skills (which may be impossible anyway, being realistic.) A way to partly implement Solution 3 that has been thrown around before could be done on the feature-side by Drogos or another contributor to the project code. There could be multiple STP totals, e.g.: one for all combat skills, one for all crafting skills, a total for the account but not including characteristics, etc... meaning that nerfs and buffs to balance total STP for very different parts of the game wouldn't have to matter as much. Total STP is probably always going to be an absolute pain to balance; but "characteristics STP", "imping STP" etc. are STP totals for similar parts of the game that are already balanced. It would also let us answer some really cool questions, like: "who has the best crafting account?", etc. When I wrote the post, I was thinking solution 1 would be sufficient. After sleeping on it and reading your post, I believe you are right. Solution 2 and removing the multipliers is the best choice at this time. It's definitely a weak argument on my part to say "I did the math and research, I just can't prove it!" I wouldn't want a system to be dictated by someone saying "trust me" instead of providing hard evidence, and that's what I've been doing recently. I may have been able to stand my ground and defend it if I still had the resource to produce the results like I did years ago... but without it, there's really no point in attempting to keep it the way it is. There would always be an asterisk on it, questioning the methodology, the assumptions, and the results. The next update to the STP will remove all the combat multipliers. This will affect all weapon and shield skills dramatically, as well as Mind Speed. I'm also very much in favor of a "raw STP" option for displaying the leaderboard. While I think that the current system is a general improvement over the raw values, it's better to provide the users some choice in how they want information displayed. There's merits to looking at raw STP as well, and would provide some interesting perspectives and comparisons. Finally, your previous post did not come off as aggressive. It came off as passionate, and I welcome opposing opinions and challenges to the system. You were right to do so - you had valid points and I'm not always correct. I don't want the STP calculations to be my opinion or biased in any way, and the only way to prevent that is to have others challenge the system in areas that look incorrect. 7 minutes ago, Chakron said: Niarja calculated STP by comparing to a lookup table that was just the output of simulations from the Skill Grinder web tool, then multiplying by skill difficulties. That's it. Seeing it "win" in fights against Sindusk's updated STP is 👍 Without your foundation none of this would be possible, and we'd still be looking at total skill points instead. I'd take the Niarja STP over that any day. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 17, 2022 51 minutes ago, Sindusk said: When I wrote the post, I was thinking solution 1 would be sufficient. After sleeping on it and reading your post, I believe you are right. Solution 2 and removing the multipliers is the best choice at this time. It's definitely a weak argument on my part to say "I did the math and research, I just can't prove it!" I wouldn't want a system to be dictated by someone saying "trust me" instead of providing hard evidence, and that's what I've been doing recently. How about a fourth solution, STP with a modifier based on Strength/second in the charts, to show weapons such as huge axes or staves are faster to level than weapons such as shortswords and small mauls. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 17, 2022 stp based on skill diff and time seems ok, for better or worse.. it's just numbers meaning nothing, there's not rmt, there's no ranking, nobody wins nothing, it's just a random score.. for all we care we can stare at 100 body.str and 100 alignment.. it's just two 100s at the end of the day we have no use for this score, it was just a ladder people used as measure or goal "to get better" or pickup new things to chase as again.. numbers.. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 17, 2022 Personally I prefer the og stp calculations from niarja, and out of the 15ish person group I play daily with I don't know anyone that doesn't. A lot of it comes down to the sheer simplicity of it. I don't know anyone that takes stp all that seriously but its a pretty fun tool to use between groups of friends to "compete" with each other 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 18, 2022 8 hours ago, platinumteef said: Personally I prefer the og stp calculations from niarja, and out of the 15ish person group I play daily with I don't know anyone that doesn't. A lot of it comes down to the sheer simplicity of it. I don't know anyone that takes stp all that seriously but its a pretty fun tool to use between groups of friends to "compete" with each other This, but I also won't ever upload to Wurmnode unless its anonymous. I used to really upload every few days to Niarja just to measure my progress in game as it's one of the few utilities to measure progress over time. I've sadly lost that history and I can't measure it going forward without effort due to having to upload secretly. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 18, 2022 2 hours ago, KarlFranz said: This, but I also won't ever upload to Wurmnode unless its anonymous. I used to really upload every few days to Niarja just to measure my progress in game as it's one of the few utilities to measure progress over time. I've sadly lost that history and I can't measure it going forward without effort due to having to upload secretly. I hear you, and I would really like to get this done as well! It is in the plans, but time has really tighten up as of lately. I thought everything would be easier as we managed to finish our new rl chicken coop, but turns out all the tasks that was put on hold that period has piled up and needs dealing with as well. Luckally tho, there is also an open source project in the making! So, double the chances now for that one project will get there 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 18, 2022 2 hours ago, Drogos said: I hear you, and I would really like to get this done as well! It is in the plans, but time has really tighten up as of lately. I thought everything would be easier as we managed to finish our new rl chicken coop, but turns out all the tasks that was put on hold that period has piled up and needs dealing with as well. Luckally tho, there is also an open source project in the making! So, double the chances now for that one project will get there We really appreciate everything you're doing for the community by adding so much to Wurmnode! I was actually surprised that Wurmnode isn't open source itself. Would you consider open sourcing the project? I'm sure that would make it easier for other contributors to get involved, too, even with the bit of initial added work for you to get the codebase on Github and write a bit of documentation. I know I personally am much more likely to get involved in projects if I can dig around in source code and see if I can understand enough of it to be helpful. It also seems silly to duplicate effort when you've already done so much with Wurmnode - maybe it'd be better to ensure the work you've already put in can never be lost in the future, as with what unfortunately happened to Niarja. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 18, 2022 42 minutes ago, Docterchese said: I was actually surprised that Wurmnode isn't open source itself. Would you consider open sourcing the project? The current code base includes propriotary libraries unfortunately, so it can not be open source as is. How ever, I would love to contribute to an open source version! All the Wurm speciffic libraries that are currently tied to propriotary libraries I can rewrite The WurmNode desktop app however is open source! But, noone seemed to care about it, so it is abandoned. Maybe next focus should be on writing an open source library instead of adding more to the site? Then any site can just simply include it If there is interest in this, let me know, I will not put in the work and effort if it leads to a dead end like the WurmNode desktop app. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 18, 2022 38 minutes ago, Drogos said: The current code base includes propriotary libraries unfortunately, so it can not be open source as is. How ever, I would love to contribute to an open source version! All the Wurm speciffic libraries that are currently tied to propriotary libraries I can rewrite The WurmNode desktop app however is open source! But, noone seemed to care about it, so it is abandoned. Maybe next focus should be on writing an open source library instead of adding more to the site? Then any site can just simply include it If there is interest in this, let me know, I will not put in the work and effort if it leads to a dead end like the WurmNode desktop app. I definitely think it would be good to have the backend and web app be open source if possible, it would ensure the longevity of the project/codebase and help to prevent what happened to Niarja (where it's too difficult for anyone else to use the code as it was always a one-man show.) How bad is it with the proprietary libraries? Are we talking about a complete rewrite or simply rewriting certain parts? If that could be done then it would be fantastic. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 18, 2022 2 hours ago, Docterchese said: How bad is it with the proprietary libraries? Are we talking about a complete rewrite or simply rewriting certain parts? It has made the process of creating the site so much simpler! So, quite some work to write what would be missed. 2 hours ago, Docterchese said: If that could be done then it would be fantastic. Like I said, it can be done, and I can and am willing do this part. 3 hours ago, Drogos said: Then any site can just simply include it If there is interest in this, let me know, I will not put in the work and effort if it leads to a dead end like the WurmNode desktop app. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 18, 2022 4 minutes ago, Drogos said: It has made the process of creating the site so much simpler! So, quite some work to write what would be missed. Like I said, it can be done, and I can and am willing do this part. Even given the extra effort, I think it would be a really good thing to do. Having Wurmnode become an open source project would ensure it can remain a valuable asset to the community forever, and would help more contributors to get involved. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 18, 2022 Very interrested to see the Top skills players of Epic Clusters would be very appreciated. Thank You ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 25, 2022 Question about the data in https://www.wurmnode.com/server/xanadu regarding "Guard Towers: 48". I did not fully count all guard towers on Xanadu, but estimate them >1000. Where stems that 48 from? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 25, 2022 Is there way to set the skills as private? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 25, 2022 2 hours ago, Ekcin said: Question about the data in https://www.wurmnode.com/server/xanadu regarding "Guard Towers: 48". I did not fully count all guard towers on Xanadu, but estimate them >1000. Where stems that 48 from? That'll just be how many have actually been entered in the map 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 25, 2022 7 hours ago, Tor said: Is there way to set the skills as private? No, that feature is not available. It is a wish to have it, just have not had enough time to make it. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 30, 2022 Thanks for running Wurmnode, it's great to have it as a resource. I don't know if this is in the que for being addressed but some of the skills don't have progress graphs for example coalmaking, metallurgy and the body subskills. I'm very grateful wurmnode exists but it would be awesome to see those graphs as well. Also, I love that you can Zoom in etc on the skill graph but exactly how the zoom in function works isn't clear and its too easy to zoom in to a part of the graph that has no data points etc. I love that you can see the highest value people have for each skill, really nice feature. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 30, 2022 42 minutes ago, Dirt said: I don't know if this is in the que for being addressed but some of the skills don't have progress graphs for example coalmaking, metallurgy and the body subskills. I'm very grateful wurmnode exists but it would be awesome to see those graphs as well. Ah! I knew about the body subskills, but not the others, thanks for mentioning! It is in the pipeline, all skills should be graphable 43 minutes ago, Dirt said: Also, I love that you can Zoom in etc on the skill graph but exactly how the zoom in function works isn't clear and its too easy to zoom in to a part of the graph that has no data points etc. Yeah, I am not sure. I utilized an open source library (jschart), and enabled the zoom functionality there. So, it works by their specification 😛 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 1, 2022 Stupid question: How do I get to the skill graph? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 1, 2022 Could you add a time zone to upcoming rift please? Thank you 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted December 1, 2022 14 minutes ago, Tukodama said: Could you add a time zone to upcoming rift please? Thank you Timezone for upcoming rifts is set to what your Computers Timezone is in. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
