Retrograde

A little bit of kindness goes a long way

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@Poragon

 

https://massivelyop.com/2020/09/08/choose-my-adventure-mining-misadventures-in-wurm-online/#comment-764794

 

26 minutes ago, Poragon said:

The authour did not maliciously blind himself from information to cast Wurm in a negative light as a few here seem to believe, rather he intentionally went in blind as to assess the game from the perspective of a brand new player 

 

Honestly, I don't believe that. 

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Ah, I did miss that one as I was looking in the comment chain you quoted* in that post.
I think it's incredibly misleading to have stated they showed interest in a person, then linked a comment that was not the comment the staff showed interest in but rather a separate one which does not have any sort of staff approval.
 

For those curious, the post which the site's staff thanked was written by a person with obvious anti-wurm motives, but contained nothing that Platyna quoted and was rather a good bit of helpful information and a few stories thrown in. Actually quoting the relevant content would be too much text as the person went very in depth in their explanations, so I encourage you to go read the actual post the staff thanked.

As for your disbelief in their honesty, nothing can be done about that. If you really want to think they're out for you, then to you they're going to be out for you.

Edited by Poragon
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And most of those "explanatories" were technically wrong or outdated, and contained a lot of accusations and malice. Also the slanderous comments on the Wurm team were at least tolerated without even a warning. I can tell from my experience as a miner, wurm player, and programmer (albeit not java).

Edited by Ekcin

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1 hour ago, Poragon said:

The only people sabotaging Wurm's reputation is us.

 

This ^^^   And one person in particular is still over there insisting that it's absolutely impossible for anyone on the planet to have gotten the idea that you need charcoal for a forge to make steel and therefore must be lying if they say they thought that. Never mind what it says on the Steel Lump page.  Why?  To what purpose? lol.  Yeah, this is really making us look good and going to make all their readers want to run over here and play this game and join our community. Guess we're really showing them a thing or two about how superior we are.  lolololol.

Edited by Amadee
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37 minutes ago, Amadee said:

 

This ^^^   And one person in particular is still over there insisting that it's absolutely impossible for anyone on the planet to have gotten the idea that you need charcoal for a forge to make steel and therefore must be lying if they say they thought that. Never mind what it says on the Steel Lump page.  Why?  To what purpose? lol.  Yeah, this is really making us look good and going to make all their readers want to run over here and play this game and join our community. Guess we're really showing them a thing or two about how superior we are.  lolololol.

Maybe you should read.... he is saying you need Charcoal to USE a Forge....  big difference...

And this is nowhere to be found on the Forge Wiki Page....

 

Also, no-where on the Steel Wiki Page its said you need Charcoal to USE a Forge.

 

So, pls stop with the personal Attacks.

Edited by Caduryn

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Amadee. it is you and Poragon now accusing us that criticizing a bad article are ruining Wurm's reputation. I consider that absurd, but ok, your point. If you mean me with that person insisting, I fail to see where I ever wrote anything even close to what you are complaining about, and do not see that any other contributer has done so.

 

As to the charcoal/forge thing, I have seen similar, maybe even worse misunderstandings in CA help which I am following and, to the best of my knowledge, covering. Yet, they appeared there. Not seeing CA help is even less credible than not seeing the steel&flint in the own inventory. And it is nodrop, you cannot even lose it by dying (you can lose the rope which is painful, but not armour, weapon, starter tools).

 

And the question remains why Platyna's original post there has been removed as it exposed the gross contradictions in the author's "reporting". Also the question remains why widely slanderous and factually wrong comments by an ex player were accepted, even welcomed, though they contained at least in part certainly unlawful accusations and defamations of Wurm team and company. Would that have been Blizzard instead of CCAB, that would certainly not have happened.

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Honestly?  I've read both entires in this series and I can't see why there is a mob waving pitchforks around.

 

Coming from someone who has played wurm far longer than most, even I'll happily say that some of the design decisions were made by someone who probably has a lobotomy listed in their medical history (looking at you person who thought it was a good idea to need to place barrels on the ground to seal them!).  The article tone is a bit snarky, but then some people just write like that; and lets be fair disbelieving snark is about the right tone for wurm sometimes (*cough*priestbalance*cough*).

 

Also, online media 101; if you don't like what someone is saying and no-one else is commenting, then just don't comment.  Lack of engagement kills media careers far faster than torch wielding mobs; especially ones that seem to be immolating themselves!

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I only have two points for this. 

 

First, I noticed that the article is (was) requesting input from readers on what to do. That's become a rather weird sort of vlogging over the last few years, but I haven't seen an article done that way. I have to assume that some of his more bizarre choices came from asking his readers (not CA HELP) for what to do next. As with anything online, asking for input from random strangers invites trolling. 

 

And that gets to my second point here. I was a Moderator for a fairly large forum for several years, and moderated one of the most difficult sections (politics). I'm well-versed in dealing with trolls. I want to help people... but at the same time, I have a dim view of people who seem to want to just waste other people's time (and especially my own time)*. A lot of the two articles (so far) seem to be skirting the boundaries of trolling, of deliberately leading with his chin in order to fail in ways he could write about. I'm not saying he's a troll - but he's definitely trying to elicit a response, a reaction from his readers, both veteran Wurm players and clueless noobs alike. That's one of the biggest challenges for Moderators in any stripe - figuring out who the actual problem cases are, trying to make things hard for others, and who are simply so out of their depth that they need two hands holding onto them, guiding their every action until they can wobble away on their own. And I can't honestly say which way Chris Neal is actually leaning. The more a potential troll writes, the more of a view into their motives you can get, to help determine what their actual intentions are. And while it's still unclear... simply saying nothing is the best approach. 

 

* Had some borderline ones in CA HELP over the past few days, and I'm glad that I'm NOT a Chat Assistant, because that means I can pick and choose who I respond to completely. And when someone asks, "how do i mine" - something that is explained more than adequately in the tutorial - I can't help but think that's a troll trying to waste people's time. So I say nothing, go back to my gaming, and let someone else handle it. 

Edited by Nekojin
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1 hour ago, Caduryn said:

Maybe you should read.... he is saying you need Charcoal to USE a Forge....  big difference...

And this is nowhere to be found on the Forge Wiki Page....

 

Also, no-where on the Steel Wiki Page its said you need Charcoal to USE a Forge.

 

So, pls stop with the personal Attacks.

 

No personal attacks. Just trying to get across to you that 1)  Again, there is no dispute that he said "use forge."  2) Just because the wiki page doesn't say "use forge" doesn't mean he could not possibly have misunderstood and therefore must be lying. And 3) You keep harping on the "use forge" interpretation and claiming he's lying when there is zero proof that he knew you don't need charcoal to use a forge, for some reason that I don't understand. But it does say you need charcoal to make steel and that is what he was looking for so it makes sense he probably was on that page. It's not such a far reach to think he just might have assumed it meant for forges in general. But I feel keeping on over there is more likely to run people off rather than make them think they should check us out.   

 

Guess I'm just losing patience with the persistence of this witch hunt and the unwillingness of some to stop making it worse over there trying to win an argument or whatever it is you're trying to do over there.  Maybe the guy is everything you people think he is. Maybe he's a wurm hater. Maybe he's a troll. I'm willing to concede that. That still wouldn't excuse boorish behavior on that web site.  Yet some here are completely unwilling to entertain the idea that maybe he's just an uninformed noob.  But either way, it's all still irrelevant and takes a back seat to the image we now have on that web site.  Whatever. The damage is done now so I'll just leave you all to it.  Hope it gives you some measure of satisfaction.  Continuing it here isn't as bad as keeping on pushing it there, but still counter productive and I guess I've been a contributor here as well, so enough.

Edited by Amadee

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At the risk of sounding like I am staff bashing, I do not think the Wurm Online staff is in a position to dictate how we behave in a platform that is not their own. In these websites we are not in a contractual relationship with Wurm nor do we have a duty to 'behave'. Many of these sites are not even in the same country as Code Clubs and are not even regulated by the same laws. 

 

I believe criticizing our behavior as a 'community' elsewhere is an overreach and bad form. Keep your moderation to Wurm Online, where we are bound to your EULA and TOS. What we do elsewhere is not your concern.

 

My 2i

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How did this thread go from try to be nice to new players to this isn't your jurisdiction, I love wurm community lmao no sarcasm

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1 hour ago, Angelklaine said:

At the risk of sounding like I am staff bashing, I do not think the Wurm Online staff is in a position to dictate how we behave in a platform that is not their own. In these websites we are not in a contractual relationship with Wurm nor do we have a duty to 'behave'. Many of these sites are not even in the same country as Code Clubs and are not even regulated by the same laws. 

 

I believe criticizing our behavior as a 'community' elsewhere is an overreach and bad form. Keep your moderation to Wurm Online, where we are bound to your EULA and TOS. What we do elsewhere is not your concern.

 

My 2i

 

@Retrogradejust asked, if he threatened with bans etc. it would be a place to put such a comment. 

 

Let's just chill before everyone jumps to each other throats.

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I’ve read this 5 times and I don’t get it? What are you asking? 

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12 minutes ago, Beastwolf said:

I’ve read this 5 times and I don’t get it? What are you asking? 

 

That you and votip should be nicer to me

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despite all rational thought telling me to avoid this like the plague.... 

1. Fix first, Solve after
So, um, I was once given some advice about sinking ships. Something along the lines of first fix the thing that's actually threatening you (pump out the water before the ship sinks) and then after that, you can take the time to solve what was wrong underneath (find the hole in the hull & patch it). Anyway, it seemed to me that there was a lot of people trying to point out holes.... so I posted a reply chain over on Massively that I tried to focus more on bailin' out the poor newbie who had obviously gotten seriously far off the intended course. 

 

2. The thing about a "community" is that everyone is part of it... 
So while we share in the community's successes .... all of us also have a share in the community's problems, and failures. Maybe some folks, or some groups of folks, have a bit more of a responsibility - and therefore a bit more of the blame when things go sideways. But everyone here participates in co-creating this community. Every one of us participates in shaping Wurm. I've done my share of selfish things, or talking too much, or holding a grudge when I really should have just let things go. 

 

Are staff supportive and protective of players that support and protect Wurm, and the staff? Of course. Does it cross lines into insiders and outsiders? Probably yeah. Probably more than it should. But we would all be hard-pressed to name even one organization or institution inside or outside of Wurm that doesn't operate exactly the same. Seriously - from labor unions all the way up to American Senators. We all know that a persons' resume doesn't get the job - it's who  you know. 

I'm not saying it's right, or it's fair. But it exists. 

 

Are ex-players bitter and cynical, and prone to particularly salty BB posts? Well, yeah - wouldn't you? If you felt that something you wanted to enjoy had done you wrong - if you had a mental list of experiences and grievances, some of which are in fact rooted in actual, valid criticism? If I felt that the exact people who were supposed to be leaders and guides, mentors and examples for the community... if those were the specific people who had given you the boot? 

I'm not saying it's right, or that it's fair. But it exists.

3.  What is this Forum Topic, Even? 

I'm seeing a lot of responses so far that are in part, or in full, asking what OP is saying, or what's the underlying point here. So, here's a couple thoughts - first, even if I agree with the sentiment, it is factually true that Wurm staff really don't have any sort of authority to direct Wurmian's actions when they are out of Wurm, so-to-speak.

 

All that the leadership of Wurm can do ... is ask.

 

So that's how I'm reading this topic from Retrograde.  I am aware that I'm being charitable with this; tryin to read things in a positive light however possible. But I'm like that, always trying to assume good intent. Here's this post from the Wurm Elders talking about kindness, and talking about community. And representing Wurm. Being a Wurmian, when ever and where ever Wurm is the topic of conversation.  

 

When I read over this, I am reminded about doing my best to put my best foot forward. If I enjoy a thing... why wouldn't I always want to show others the good aspects of the thing? Show others the reasons why I got so involved, found so much worth enjoying? I generally want others to think well of me - or at least, as well as possible. I also generally want others to at least respect the interests and hobbies I have, if not come to enjoy and share them too. 

 

Wurm is not perfect. The Wurm community is not perfect. Everyone here has at least one thing that they've got beef about - there are always new posts in the Wurm forums with suggestions, bug reports, support tickets, and "rigorous" disagreements. There always will be... but, as a gamer, I can also easily see that it's in my own interest for the game I am playing to grow. More people joining translates to more cash flow. In the modern world for better or for worse, cash flow equals more man hours, more hands on deck, more development, more features, more and better updates.

 

And I guess that's what I would boil it down to right now. Can Wurm tell you, a person, how to act or speak, outside of the TOS for Wurm, the game? No. Absolutely not

 

Can you, a person, chose to listen to what's going on and decide for yourself what sort of behavior and what sort of P.R. will benefit you, the Wurm player? Yes. Absolutely, you get to make that decision for yourself, and you alone

 

Is it possible to make a decision about kindness and community and representing Wurm that is mutually beneficial to you and to Wurm / other Wurmians? 

..... 

 

Well, I guess each person gets to decide that answer for themselves.  
 

Edited to Add: I meant to include a link to my comment thread on Massively. I hope I did right by y'all - my fellow Wurmians - and I'm open to additional comments and suggestions for doing better in the future. Thanks 💜
https://massivelyop.com/2020/09/08/choose-my-adventure-mining-misadventures-in-wurm-online/#comment-765254

Edited by Amata
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Just a note about needing the steel&flint to light a forge.  I have recently, just because, started lighting all my campfires without a steel & flint by using scrap instead.  The mechanic is exactly the same, but with scrap instead of steel&flint.  I recall reading this alternative method in the wiki (but I am not going digging for it now).  I don't know if the same works for forges.

Edited by TheTrickster
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Activate a woods scrap, right click kindling. Forges can be lit by a hot wood scrap. 

 

Edited by Platyna

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Great comments you made, Amata. If they do not make that author "literally look as a liar", they make him "litterally look as a fool". Not that this were that bad, I made a fool out of myself innumerous times in Wurm. But with long standing experience in operations engineering and (mainly 2nd/3rd layer) CS I am aware that over 90% of things going wrong in complex environments is PEBKAC. And the author then is an ingenious PEBKACer to say the least :)

 

As to your comments inside the spoilers, I loved them a lot. Maybe you should re-edit them a bit and include them into the beginner guides.

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Honestly why was this topic made other then to stir this up from being a random post 90% of the forum users ignore and bump it up to 90% of the forum users watch read and comment on? Why are you stoking the fire even more?

Setting aside the whole back and forth of who did what in here 1 thing i do have to agree with to a degree, what we do elsewhere should be of no concern to you if i walk out and bad mouth wurm at a event of 100k people i should be able to do that perfectly fine without any issue so long as im not stating lies and ######

The same goes for the author mind you he should be allowed to voice his opinion but make it clear where his lack of knowledge and thus idea's come from (stating one refuses to read the wiki or ask for help wasnt a good move on that part)

Just like with on steam every single disgruntled person(and there seem to be quite a few) should be allowed to voice their say on there because hey its steam reviews are we going to make a topic in town square and in  city hall every time a "journalist" writes a bad piece and people come out to either bad mouth the game/share their opinion? 

Again this topic serves no purpose other then to try and get people to become more heated and "provide proof" that the wurm community is "bad" when infact its just people talking about stuff and sometimes going a bit to far and thus this should be in woodscraps right along all other topics of this nature that are in there

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On 9/10/2020 at 12:38 PM, Poragon said:

On that note, it's important to remember what exactly that article's intention was. As stated by the staff in response to your comment on the article;

 

Quote

Choose My Adventure isn’t a review or constructive criticism or a comprehensive research piece. It’s a let’s-play series where the writer usually goes in as a newbie and lets the game and the readers (through polls and comments) decide what he sees and does and experiences next over the course of several weeks. Much of the point of the series, which has been running close to 10 years across dozens of games with the same format, is to reveal the character of the community through its votes and advice and to examine how accessible the games are for typical MMO gamers in 2020, people who do not generally download the syllabus and study wikis before playing.

 

The authour did not maliciously blind himself from information to cast Wurm in a negative light as a few here seem to believe, rather he intentionally went in blind as to assess the game from the perspective of a brand new player trying to figure things out for themselves with a bit of the site's community input. This was not done just to Wurm Online either, as the staff of the website points out. This is a series which is long running and takes this same approach to multiple games. 

 

I think this bears repeating.  Well said.

 

One more try. Come on people. It's a Series in the Community section of the their website. It uses the same method for all the games it covers in that series, and has done so for 10 years now. Wurm was not singled out. Read some of them yourself. Make sure you read the "Choose My Adventure" series and not their "Reviews" or "Opinions" articles if you want to make an accurate comparison to their treatment of other games.

 

It is not claiming to be an authoritative, informed "Journalistic Review."  It is not an "Opinion" article. Regardless of what the gal's title is at the company or what her other duties there may be.  It is a (supposed to be) fun monthly activity for and with their community, much like some things we've had here on our own forums although ours are limited to Wurm things since this is a Wurm forum. 

 

If it was intended to be a "Journalistic Review" or claimed to be an "informed Opinion piece," then I would have been one of the first to agree with all those here who are up in arms because she didn't do her homework or ask for help.  And I certainly wouldn't have been shy about showing the rough side of my tongue.  But that's not the case.  So it's a bit beyond my comprehension why this is so hard to understand or why it's so hard for some to even entertain the notion that maybe,  just maybe, they may have misjudged the lady*. 

 

But whatever, folks have their minds made up and don't want to be confused with any evidence to the contrary.  Nothing I can do about that I guess and I'm not even sure why I'm bothering, to be honest.

 

*edit: A minor (or major? lol) correction and I figured I'd just edit here and only correct this post rather than go through and correct all my previous posts as well. Was just reading another one of the other CMAs, just for entertainment since they are pretty entertaining, and discovered that the writer, Chris, is a gal and not a guy.  My bad, and apologies to Chris. 

Edited by Amadee
corrected gender

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Hmm funny. Why is it so hard to see others expressing differing views without repeating the same, often refuted with good arguments, again and again? Why stoking the debate again and again. Nothing new in that post, nothing that has not been countered again and again. Who is right or wrong, is a matter of point of view. Best piece here was that of Amata, but I also agree to atazs, let them all speak out, but please, come to an end.

 

As to this massively overrated blog (should bear that name), I had heard of only so far, and not always positively. Having read a bit, I can understand. It is in the gaming area what low and lowest level tabloids like Sun in UK or Bild in Germany are. Maybe that kind of "adventures", sometimes uncritically flattering, sometimes damning like the one in question, is what their audience is expecting.

 

I fail to see that the critics have "misjudged", neither the "reporter" or whatever, nor the editor and forum moderators there, removing factual criticism while preserving, even lauding outright slander against operatives of another company. What that thug "Militiasomething" wrote was unlawful under the civil codes of every halfways civilized society. I do not see that CCAB nor the forum mods would equally tolerate accusing staff of other operations corrupt neanderthals, throwing further questionable accusations, obviously from a butthurt loser who then exposes his technical ignorance in programming and Wurm mining being thanked for his "valuable informations".  

 

But ok, my view, you are of course entitled to yours. And I think it is time to close this thread. If you feel to need to have the last word, please go ahead.

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We are not going to agree with each other, so let's just chill and:

 

Spoiler

 

 

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Reality Tunnels.   People here on wurm have a certain way to play the game and know that to get the best experience or the most results, you need to do certain tasks, such as ask for help in CA or interact with the community if unsure.   Think the other problem comes when the help or resources are there but then you don't take the help and instead write an article about your experiences, which can paint the game in a bad light.

Though, the let's player/reviewer has their own system for playing games and writing articles.  For 10 years they have been doing this (Going by quotes that other people have posted)  So they know what they are doing.  They have a system in place for how they experience a game and how their articles then get written.

If they rely on poll votes and comments from their own community then that means that they have a system in place for how a article will form and what they will experience next.  This is why they would not ask for help from CA Help or from others in game because their main mode for story telling direction is through their own online polls and user comments.   So they would of course reject in game asking for help because that is how they create articles and run their operation.  That is how they play games and create their stories.

That also creates more drama, more frustration and more emotions to rise up in not only themselves but also the readers as well.  Which = More clicks, more views, more votes and more comments.
Certain Let's Players do this all of the time and it is a great way to create drama and makes videos more entertaining but also frustrating or even funny at the same time.  Like watching a train wreck happening and you know how to fix the problems but you can't help but laugh/cry/scream at how much stuff they are getting wrong.

The mass loads of drama that has happened from this event has created alot of attention for that website and also some attention for wurm as well.

Also if it is what they do for a living then they will not be staying around in Wurm. They have many other games to play in this manner and write about.  Soon all of this will be forgotten about and the person will of moved onto the next game to do a story on.

(BTW - Reality tunnels are where you have a view of how reality works, how things work.   This drama happened because people did not see that, that person had their own system in place or reality tunnel in place for how to play/review a game. The reviewers reality tunnel did not match up with wurm players reality tunnels and when that happens conflict occurs.)

Edited by Zexos
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