Retrograde

A little bit of kindness goes a long way

Recommended Posts

Hi everyone, 


I know that throughout the last few months we have had a massive influx of new players, and I know dealing with the same question about flattening a tile can get a bit much. 

What I have been noticing is that a few people have had issues with understanding the game and have struggled more than others. In instances like these, it's essential to take extra steps to ensure that we treat these people with the kindness and openness in the community that we pride. 

Wurm is an incredibly in-depth game, and it's that depth and breadth that sucked me into the world, and I know it's the same for you. 

 

That starting step though can be incredibly challenging, and I noticed in the recent thread by MassivelyOP some players felt that the blogger was misrepresenting the game. While I do appreciate those of you willing to step up and help players who struggle with the mechanics, please keep in mind that when you do post on these forums, you are representing the entire Wurm community with you. A player feeling overwhelmed by the amount of depth and choice the game gives them may seem off-putting to some, but I know many would love the idea of a game being as in-depth as Wurm is, so please do treat everyone with kindness even if they do struggle with the game. 

 

The Wurm community is something I take a lot of pride in as a community manager, and I know you all do too, so let's make sure that we always put our best foot forward! 
 

Retro

  • Like 35
  • Cat 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

what are you even saying? what does answering questions have to do with the rest of what you say? anyone who has tried to help people in ca help for a while, now or before steam, will be answering the same questions 77 times a week. that has nothing to do with whatever this is an answer to.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are we gonna make thread everytime someone said something wrong

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i think those posts were representative enough of the community- at least the ones i saw. I didn't see any particularly hostile posts, but it was clear people were frustrated by someone new to the game representing the game itself to OTHER new people in a poor light- while it certainly wasn't meant to be a review, it's still the window that a lot of new folk will see the game through, and it'll impact whether they try it out, or what they think about the game (and let's be honest, let's plays are JUST as much of a tool to check out games as real game reviews are)

i think the community being frustrated is fair, and i feel like you're almost downplaying that (maybe its just b/c you feel embarrassed due to being a figurehead of the community? idk).

some of the posts went too far for sure, but i don't think the general sentiment is wrong. there's good reason to be frustrated with a LP'er exposing a game that needs a lot of information to play in a bad light like this, but there's also some room to relax a little and instead of getting angry, explain things to them.

still, i don't buy any of this "it's not a review, it's a blog/let's play". feels like a cop out for what's obviously meant as a tool to introduce a community to a game.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I beg to differ. If anything written in these two short articles, would have been addressed ingame, most of us, be it in CA help, local, kingdom, or in pm, would have reacted in kind, calmly explaining that the game is indeed old, some of the mechanics may appear weird (often to us, too :) ), that much is hard for a beginner. We would have pointed to misconceptions in a friendly way, offering advice and assistance.

 

The author of those "misadventures" was aware that he was damaging Wurm by his account. He did, as a journalist, not the least bother for background research and information, and from his report, not at all in asking anyone for advice, though that is the most valuable resource at hand in any game. Not even trying to tap that resource is showing incompetence, or malice.

Edited by Ekcin
missing sentence part added
  • Like 10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

I beg to differ. If anything written in these two short articles, would have been addressed ingame, most of us, be it in CA help, local, kingdom, or in pm, would have reacted in kind, calmly explaining that the game is indeed old, some of the mechanics may appear weird (often to us, too :) ), that much is hard for a beginner. We would have pointed to misconceptions in a friendly way, offering advice and assistance.

 

The author of those "misadventures" was aware that he was damaging Wurm by his account. He did, as a journalist, not the least bother for background research and information, and from his report, not at all in asking anyone for advice, though that is the most valuable resource at hand in any game. Not even trying to tap that resource is showing incompetence, or malice.

 

I agree with your first paragraph.  I disagree with the second paragraph.  Seems to me that the response in your first paragraph would have been the appropriate way to respond on the article.  As I said elsewhere, it is very hard to express frustration in the written word without it coming across as criticism.  And regardless of what we think of his writing, it's obvious he is a genuine newbie and was very frustrated as we've all been at one time or another, and therefore I feel is deserving of the same consideration we'd give someone in-game.  Any misconceptions he may have put out there in his article could have easily been corrected in comments without making our community look the way we now look to their readers. And let's face it, we now look pretty damn bad over there.  :(

Edited by Amadee
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well let us agree to disagree about that part. In my opinion, massively is not a complete amateur endeavour, they are aware what they are doing and what they can do. I simply disbelieve the naivete of the author. I have done some - mainly tech writing - journalism myself, and know about that profession. As Elentari wrote, writing down is only the last step and the last few percent of a report.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the quick and simple of it is don't verbally attack people, even if you don't agree with what they're saying. I understand the frustrating coming from someone not quite getting that hook-in about a game we all love, but the reaction on both that site and the forums seriously paint the Wurm community in an immature light.

Even if someone is in the wrong that's never a green light for being toxic.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

Well let us agree to disagree about that part. In my opinion, massively is not a complete amateur endeavour, they are aware what they are doing and what they can do. I simply disbelieve the naivete of the author. I have done some - mainly tech writing - journalism myself, and know about that profession. As Elentari wrote, writing down is only the last step and the last few percent of a report.

 

Ok, agree to disagree.  :)   All I'm saying really is that I feel it's irrelevant what his motivations are, what the website's awareness is, or whether they're naive or not.  What's relevant to me is that pointing out any of this, even if true, did nothing for the image of our community to their readers.  In fact, if their goal had indeed been to dis Wurm, they could now sit back and say "Nuff said, point made."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

what did our comunity do? did i miss something?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Retrograde said:

few people have had issues with understanding the game and have struggled more than others.

 

I could name a few staff members this applies to lol

 

Aaanyway, this will probably get me a warning or ban for being 'critical of staff', but seriously, don't tell me how to behave on another website wholly unconnected with you. (subject matter asides)

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Tpikol said:

what did our comunity do? did i miss something?

We called out someone who made a Article online and telling that he was told on the Wiki that a Forge only works with Charcoal......

 

And now WE are the bad ones.....

Edited by Caduryn
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a difference between helping someone new in game and showing kindness to a blogger who appears to have one set goal: destroy a game. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, ChampagneDragon said:

There is a difference between helping someone new in game and showing kindness to a blogger who appears to have one set goal: destroy a game. 

 

I find it difficult to believe that a new player would start with an initial goal to destroy a game that they know nothing about.  More likely, the new player was frustrated with the perceived complexity and was short on patience and gave up.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, some in that thread got offensive which was unnecessary, at least one in the blog's comment section did too, obviously, and was deleted. But Katspurr and Platina responded politely, kindly, and competently in that blog's comment section, so did retrograde. And in that blog a former, obviously banned or else kicked ex-Wurmian commented, with much outdated and partially maliciously wrong "information", and insults of the allegedly "corrupt" WO dev and CA/GM team. The editor even thanked that creature for his "useful information".

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Galatyn said:

 

I find it difficult to believe that a new player would start with an initial goal to destroy a game that they know nothing about.  More likely, the new player was frustrated with the perceived complexity and was short on patience and gave up.

You would have to read the blog to understand. In the first one he talks about how he needs charcoal to make steel and flint so he can light a forge, but needs to light a coal pile to make charcoal, so he can make a steel and flint... about how it was an endless loop..

 

The blogger did not engage with any of the community, whether it be locals or CA Help. Instead went on about how things were not intuitive.

 

THe second paragraph sums up his whole foray into Wurm.   His mind was made up at the very start " I’m not sure what Wurm’s excuse is, then, in making things feel purposefully obtuse in terms of doing the most simple of tasks, but here we are."

 

People making excuses that maybe he didn't get a steel and flint  "You’re handed the wide swath of basic tools you’ll need, given a whole bunch of equipment, and provided some basic instructions on how to use said tools."

 

Third paragraph  . 'To the game’s credit, the tutorial does get one’s feet wet well enough. You’re handed the wide swath of basic tools you’ll need, given a whole bunch of equipment, and provided some basic instructions on how to use said tools.'  I do know, from creating alts recently, that the tutorial tells you to activate, not to equip.. But I can see how many who are new fall to the assumption you have to equip first, especially if they skipped the tutorial or hurried through it.

 

So, in three paragraphs he pretty much sums up his attitude going forward. Anyone who enters any endeavor with such negativity is not going to be impartial, nor give it a real chance. 


THAT is what got many so upset. This isn't "journalism". This feels very much like someone with an agenda: to shine bad light on a game that is worthy of so much more... and a community that is always willing to step up and answer questions. A community he simply did not choose to utilize.

 

 

Edited by ChampagneDragon
  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@ChampagneDragonAnd while all of that may be true, who's to know for sure, I get the feeling that many here believe the responses there were appropriate and showed our community in it's best light, as well as believing that the condemnation of that writer must be continued and expanded upon.  Why is that?  Is this how we truly want to be seen?  Is this truly who we are as a community? Not singling you out here, just replying to the sentiment in general. The community is up in arms and passing judgement on the writer for expressing his opinions on his first impressions.  This is why I find this whole thing so sad. 

 

edit:  I'd also like to add that I think it might be appropriate for someone to address the continuing rage going on over there. A certain someone from this forum is pushing the idea that the writer is a malicious liar, ignoring even the possibility that the guy may have just misunderstood what he read on the wiki, and harping on the point that the guy thought charcoal was needed for a forge.  As I said elsewhere, all you have to do is look at the page for Steel Lump to see where he might have gotten that impression if he looked there for info about making steel rather than reading the Forge page.  lol.  I'd do it myself but I'm not going to disable my ad blocker nor tracking-cookie blocker just to make an account there for one comment.  :)

Edited by Amadee
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To a considerable extent, I agree with the perspective being put forward here by @Amadeeand @Retrograde. An important thing to consider in communication is that no one ever has access to "The Truth (tm)"; it's all about perception, and getting aggressive or defensive around the subject of criticism is not a good look. Especially since, as posters above have noted, Wurm really is not especially intuitive, and you're going to have a bad time if you go into it without a willingness to do a bunch of background research or get tons of help from the community. And while the obvious answer might seem to be "do one of those things," I have a RL friend who considers that to be a mark of bad game design, period; that I disagree is why I'm a Wurm fanatic and he's never tried it lol. Being patient with people who don't understand these things is important. Being confrontational and holier-than-thou simply gives people who are undecided less reason to give the game a chance.

 

But now I'm going to get a bit spicy, perform a bit of an experiment.

 

I am going to preface by saying that I have never personally had a problem with the Wurm staff. But as someone who has been here for a little while now, I have seen some version of this attitude expressed in various ways at various times:

 

"I played this for 4 years. While it’s a fun/great game, and the general population is usually decent, the staff are corrupt as heck and do loads of things to protect their friends/investments... There is no ‘reporting’ the bad ones either, because the ‘head’ person (Enki) is one of the problems. There is a ‘boys club’ vibe to the whole thing, where they are protecting their own mob-style." - "MilitiaMasterV"

 

Without taking any stance on the truth of such declarations, it is an undeniable fact that this also gives Wurm a very poor image. As does the fact that even veteran players frequently accuse the staff of censoring criticism, even deleting posts on these forums. Taking the time to call out the toxicity of players when one of the harshest critiques to be found in those comment sections regards the supposed toxicity of the staff comes across as a bit unfair and disingenuous to me.

 

The experiment is, of course, to see whether or not this post survives ;) 

Edited by KharnovKrow
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read that comment by that "MilitiaMasterV" guy, as I read similar and nearly identical comments in the steam reviews, in an obvious bid to harm Wurm. There seems to be a cabal of some twenty or so cheerleaders frantically approving those comments in steam in the very moment they are published. I fail to see that other than organized revenge campaigning. There are disgruntled ex Wurm players out in the world, so what.

 

It is of course the right of that massively blog to keep such defamations in the comment section. And it is true that comments violating the forum rules in the eyes of the forum moderators are removed.

 

As to that article, I already wrote what I am thinking and feeling about. It is a piece of detrimental journalism, in a time where we have plenty of awful journalism in the field of politics already. It is depressing how every professional standard is thrown over board in the game journalism area too, now. And I fail to see any "reporting" of similar venom on any of the other games they are covering. It might damage their ads revenues to mess with larger companies.

 

As Champagnedragon wrote

Quote

.. A community he simply did not choose to utilize.

 

As I suspect: A community he intentionally choose not to contact. The ways the toxic slander of "MilitiaMasterV" is cheered by the editor supports that suspicion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I made my posts there calm, on topic, polite, informational, created a new char to check the new tutorial and newbie toolkit to back up my claims. I wrote what many other people wrote - that I think the author did not pay enough attention to tutorial, and he should interact with other players as this is the sake of the massive multiplayer game, this post was deleted and a staff member said that I "literally accused the author of lying", which never happened and then hit the victim narrative. 

 

Not to mention that the only comment that the staff of this site actually seemed to appreciate was made by a person who, as he said himself, is not an active player and posted comments below any standards of any mature discussion, including vicious and rude bashing of Wurm staff, which the administrators of the site didn't bother to moderate.

 

Let me quote some pieces:

 

Quote

Most of the ‘staff’ were actual players who took on a role, and weren’t being paid for their time/were volunteers (As they loved to use as an excuse for why things were so shoddy when I would point something out.)

Wurm is a great game, but it’s run by a bunch of neanderthals, and a bunch of jerks play it to abuse others. In between all of that, you get the usual common people who are just putzing around and trying out a new game, some of whom give it a longer go than others.

 

Here is more: https://massivelyop.com/2020/09/01/choose-my-adventure-the-slow-burning-esoteric-start-of-wurm-online/#comment-763609

Edited by Platyna
  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Platyna said:

I made my posts there calm, on topic, polite, informational, created a new char to check the new tutorial and newbie toolkit to back up my claims. I wrote what many other people wrote - that I think the author did not pay enough attention to tutorial, and he should interact with other players as this is the sake of the massive multiplayer game, this post was deleted and a staff member said that I "literally accused the author of lying", which never happened and then hit the victim narrative. 

 

So true, that exacly shows what they wanted to archive....

Edited by Caduryn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@EkcinWithout commenting on the motives of "MilitiaMasterV" and those who are 'liking'/up-voting their comments/"slander," my remarks are based more on two different examples of criticism/hostility towards the staff that I have encountered in-game, from people who I regard as dedicated Wurm players who nonetheless have expressed concerns with the staff. Their names will be left out this, but one case involved an accusation of deleting a comment or Steam review that the staff did not like, the other involving a player who flat-out refused to be involved with an event being hosted by a Game Master. I don't claim to know all the details of these instances, but I would not have made such a strong assertion based solely on the remarks of one disgruntled former player. And I can say I recall at least one time on these forums where a member of the staff treated someone with a complaint quite rudely, in my opinion.

 

Again, I don't know the truth of the matter; I am inclined to believe that the Wurm staff are human beings with a lot on their plate, and sometimes they make decisions that are reasonable but unpopular, while other times they make legitimate mistakes that are worthy of criticism. I think they are, as a rule, passionate about making Wurm the best game possible. But again, I think it's unfair to treat the criticisms of the staff as completely off-base if you're going to criticize the players for *their* impact on the image of the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Platyna said:

Not to mention that the only comment that the staff of this site actually seemed to appreciate was made by a person who, as he said himself, is not an active player and posted comments below any standards of any mature discussion, including vicious and rude bashing of Wurm staff, which the administrators of the site didn't bother to moderate.

 

I'm curious as to what you mean by the staff of the site seemed to appreciate this person's comments. The only staff interaction on the articles seems to be a like to a poem piece written, and correcting you about the intention of the article as a whole.

 

On that note, it's important to remember what exactly that article's intention was. As stated by the staff in response to your comment on the article;

Quote

Choose My Adventure isn’t a review or constructive criticism or a comprehensive research piece. It’s a let’s-play series where the writer usually goes in as a newbie and lets the game and the readers (through polls and comments) decide what he sees and does and experiences next over the course of several weeks. Much of the point of the series, which has been running close to 10 years across dozens of games with the same format, is to reveal the character of the community through its votes and advice and to examine how accessible the games are for typical MMO gamers in 2020, people who do not generally download the syllabus and study wikis before playing.

The authour did not maliciously blind himself from information to cast Wurm in a negative light as a few here seem to believe, rather he intentionally went in blind as to assess the game from the perspective of a brand new player trying to figure things out for themselves with a bit of the site's community input. This was not done just to Wurm Online either, as the staff of the website points out. This is a series which is long running and takes this same approach to multiple games. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have read through a couple of "my adventure" contributions of this Chris Neal. I have not found a single one even nearly as venomous. With some games thereof I know myself I can at least say that he overcame a somewhat stumbling start or other shortcomings generously, here and there he criticized somewhat, sometimes he flattered, apparently especially games from larger editors. Honi soit qui mal y pense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Venomous? The absolute most scathing line in his two articles to me seems to be 

Quote

I’m not sure what Wurm’s excuse is, then, in making things feel purposefully obtuse in terms of doing the most simple of tasks, but here we are.

and that does not come close to something I would assign enough intentional, predetermined malice to call venomous.

 

If you can't find any review that casts any other game into a as-negative light I'd offer these pieces to you in which he does more than just call them confusing, complex, or obtuse;
https://massivelyop.com/2020/06/09/choose-my-adventure-eve-online-is-already-a-bad-time/
https://massivelyop.com/2019/07/02/choose-my-adventure-tera-and-the-argument-in-favor-of-just-okay-gaming/

And especially this piece which I get the feeling you may have glossed over;
https://massivelyop.com/2018/05/11/choose-my-adventure-ultima-online-we-didnt-need-to-do-this/

The only people sabotaging Wurm's reputation is us.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now