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Darnok

Merge PvP and PvE

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The idea of a border between PvP and PvE creates a safe area problem.  Hopping in and out of safety would have to be limited, which then really just gives you the chaos-freedom model with extra punishment.

 

I can see the notion you're suggesting (PvE - PvP Lite - PvP) but I'm not confident it would work well because a very similar system already exists and it is a dismal failure.

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Isn't this what we have Epic for?

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9 hours ago, Benalish said:

Saying that wurm should go that way just because eve got more players? Why doesnt eve go the way like fortnite? Battle royale style

 

These are two different genres of games. Eve and Wurm are the same genre.

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No zone in Eve is strictly pve in the way Wurm is. Highsec is a retributive npc justice system, it does not protect you via game systems from someone killing you. If you are using that as a basis for your argument, it is already flawed. Eve has no "safe zones" where someone can't just kill you because they feel like it. 

Edited by GorgonKain
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2 hours ago, Darnok said:

 

These are two different genres of games. Eve and Wurm are the same genre.

as are wurm and eve

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On 9/10/2020 at 5:24 AM, Darnok said:

Did you all played EVE online? Why does the PvE and PvP merge on one big map works there, but here it wouldn't work? You are all wrong, there are many examples of crafting MMOs where this idea works great and if it does work there it would work here.

I played EVE Online for some time and was (in my opinion) successful with it.  I mined initially for isk (money) and explored in High and Low Security. Then I secured a Class II wormhole system, put in several bases and a citadel, and setup an extensive factory system for building multi-tier resources.  I made, on average, about 4 billion isk per month.  Some isk I spent for ships, some I gave to others, and some I used to play around with the Exchange.  I say this to give some credence to my opinion.

 

EVE is very different from Wurm.  I don't feel a reasonable comparison can be drawn between the two games, and what works for one does not translate to the other.  I've also played other MMOs where there was no strong distinction between PVP and PVE areas, but limited my reply to EVE since that is the example you used.  Again, based on my experience with those other games, what works there would not work here.

 

-1.

 

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9 hours ago, GorgonKain said:

No zone in Eve is strictly pve in the way Wurm is. Highsec is a retributive npc justice system, it does not protect you via game systems from someone killing you. If you are using that as a basis for your argument, it is already flawed. Eve has no "safe zones" where someone can't just kill you because they feel like it. 

 

Here, in safe (green) zones, there can also be guards who will attack anyone who starts attacking other players.

 

In my opinion, the very idea of a yellow zone, i.e. one in which players can attack each other but cannot destroy buildings and pick up items from corpses, would attract a lot of new players. This is somewhat of a compromise between ruthless PvP and boring PvE.

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NOOOOOOOOOO Please Rolf did that and look where that led. PVE People play that for a reason.  If you cant find enough people to fight go find another game. 

 

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1 hour ago, Lolabelle said:

NOOOOOOOOOO Please Rolf did that and look where that led. PVE People play that for a reason.  If you cant find enough people to fight go find another game. 

 

 

I want to add the ability to attack other players so I can protect my resources if they are trying to grab them.

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Every game that has tried to encourage (force) pve players to need pvp targets has crashed and burned.

 

Runescape has added hundreds of hours of pve content over the years, and almost no pvp content. The pvp areas are deserted.

4 or 5 mmos i've tested in the last few years tried the encourage pvp and as such never had a big pve market and I didn't play and turned into flops.

Shroud of the Avatar announced a huge pvp requirement at the start, and over time (and much to the horror of pvp crowd) virtually eliminated pvp from the game.

Some big PVP games like Archeage I really wanted to get into, but no way I was going to be beholden to a kingdom for protection while I farm.

 

Devs should learn, you can make a pve game, or a pvp game, don't try to get pve players to finance your pvp game. And pvp players should stop trying to lure sheep into their flocks to be fleeced, cause it turns players off the entire genre, not just the pvp side of the games.

 

  

14 minutes ago, Darnok said:

I want to add the ability to attack other players so I can protect my resources if they are trying to grab them.


That's simple, buy a deed. Then your resources are safe.

Edited by Kelody
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42 minutes ago, Darnok said:

 

I want to add the ability to attack other players so I can protect my resources if they are trying to grab them.

If your stuff is Deeded, nobody can  "grab your resources." Sounds to me like you're trying to BS your way into having an excuse to attack people who aren't interested in PvP. 

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Wasnt the first Wurm Apocalypse the time Rolf made Indy PVP like Chaos?  Vets came rolling in drained a lot of deeds and majority of people refuse to play the game anymore until it was reverted.

 

 

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45 minutes ago, Kelody said:

Every game that has tried to encourage (force) pve players to need pvp targets has crashed and burned.

 

Runescape has added hundreds of hours of pve content over the years, and almost no pvp content. The pvp areas are deserted.

4 or 5 mmos i've tested in the last few years tried the encourage pvp and as such never had a big pve market and I didn't play and turned into flops.

Shroud of the Avatar announced a huge pvp requirement at the start, and over time (and much to the horror of pvp crowd) virtually eliminated pvp from the game.

Some big PVP games like Archeage I really wanted to get into, but no way I was going to be beholden to a kingdom for protection while I farm.

 

Devs should learn, you can make a pve game, or a pvp game, don't try to get pve players to finance your pvp game. And pvp players should stop trying to lure sheep into their flocks to be fleeced, cause it turns players off the entire genre, not just the pvp side of the games.

 

Emphasis added. Amazon's new MMO, New World, was originally designed with the intent of being a three-faction PVP-centric game. They soon discovered that they had a problem with testing. Experienced Alpha testers were ganking the newbies at the first opportunity, which turned the new testers off from continuing to playtest the game. So they took away any actual rewards from killing people outside of a limited level range. The experienced players kept ganking newbies. Devs added some level protection where if the level difference was too great, the higher-level attacker would do minimal damage. So the gankers grouped up to gank newbies. So they pleaded to the community directly, pointing out that ganking the newbies was drastically reducing their playtest pool, and that they needed the testers, so please stop killing new players. The gankers kept on ganking newbies. The Devs threatened that if the newbie ganking didn't stop, they'd be forced to take open-world PvP completely out of the game, and then they'd not be able to gank anyone ever again. The gankers kept ganking newbies. 

 

So Open World reluctantly, and with a heavy sigh, removed open-world PvP from New World completely. The only PvP left in the game are in opt-in situations, Battlegrounds and Territory Wars, which do not take place in the open-world areas.  

 

Congratulations, gankers. You ganked yourselves. 

 

Edit: Here's an article about it. 

 

Edited by Nekojin
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5 hours ago, Darnok said:

 

I want to add the ability to attack other players so I can protect my resources if they are trying to grab them.

Thats what KOS is for. 

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3 minutes ago, Lolabelle said:

Thats what KOS is for. 

 

Outside of deed? I mean you can kill trolls, but you can't stop one noob with hatchet cutting trees you planted week ago...

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3 minutes ago, Darnok said:

 

Outside of deed? I mean you can kill trolls, but you can't stop one noob with hatchet cutting trees you planted week ago...

deed it

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5 hours ago, Kelody said:

 

  


That's simple, buy a deed. Then your resources are safe.

 

I'm mainly a hunter, animals don't spawn on deed.

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Just now, Benalish said:

deed it

 

But why? I want to be able to kill anyone who comes close to them? And if you don't want to fight, buy a deed so big that you don't have to leave it.

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1 minute ago, Darnok said:

 

I'm mainly a hunter, animals don't spawn on deed.

that has nothing to do with resource protection then, does it? wilderness aint yours to claim other than deeding it

sorry dude but you are beating a dead horse with this thread

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1 minute ago, Darnok said:

 

But why? I want to be able to kill anyone who comes close to them? And if you don't want to fight, buy a deed so big that you don't have to leave it.

then go to a pvp server, chaos server is pretty much what you want then

Edited by Benalish

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18 minutes ago, Darnok said:

 

Outside of deed? I mean you can kill trolls, but you can't stop one noob with hatchet cutting trees you planted week ago...

This is a problem entirely of your own creation, by your refusal to use the tools available to you and/or trying to use the rules in ways that were never intended. 

 

You are the problem. You can be the solution, if you choose. But I'm guessing that you aren't interested in Benalish's suggested solution, because... 

 

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Edited by Nekojin

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1 hour ago, Darnok said:

 

I'm mainly a hunter, animals don't spawn on deed.

yes they do

2 hours ago, Darnok said:

I want to be able to kill anyone who comes close to them?

play on pvp then, all this suggestion does is make a loophole filled gank zone where you can just hide in a deed after killing someone

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if you dont like the way wurm works, go play rust

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10 hours ago, Benalish said:

that has nothing to do with resource protection then, does it? wilderness aint yours to claim other than deeding it

sorry dude but you are beating a dead horse with this thread

 

It is if I can attack anyone I see around me 🙂

 

10 hours ago, Benalish said:

then go to a pvp server, chaos server is pretty much what you want then

 

How old is this map?

I doubt that the rules I propose apply there.

 

10 hours ago, Nekojin said:

This is a problem entirely of your own creation, by your refusal to use the tools available to you and/or trying to use the rules in ways that were never intended. 

 

You are the problem. You can be the solution, if you choose. But I'm guessing that you aren't interested in Benalish's suggested solution, because... 

 

 

 

The problem is that all solutions were designed for the PvP server, and PvE is just an unbalanced slice of these ideas.

I am looking for a solution that will either be a compromise on a combination of both or a new balanced PvE.

 

I understand that many of you have been playing Wurm for a long time and probably a little too long to be able to objectively perceive the source of the problems. You just got used to what it is and you want to force the new ones to do the same, because it's good, and it's good, because you got used to it.

 

Each piece of the game shows the differences between PvP and PvE. Maybe the basic deed (size/cost) for PvP is good enough, i.e. if other players are afraid to approach the buildings of strangers, in my opinion this size of the basic deed and perimeter should be enough.

But in PvE it is not possible (and KOS probably does not work as I suggest).

 

I understand that combining these three zones can be difficult  and it would take lots of time so maybe a different, faster approach. One map with slightly different rules and in 2021 Wurm will be the game of the year.

 

Ability to attack other players (by me and my guards), no matter what is their reputation, on your land (deed + perimeter) is a must in PvE and it should be turned on by default for everyone and only the characters I add to the list should be able to safely pass my perimeter and deed.

 

Deed size should be twice as large and the basic perimeter should be at least 100 tiles around basic deed for same price.

 

Economy Fix: Limited number of upgrades/improvements that can be done for each item, vehicle and crafting station (do not apply to walls and buildings). Thus, if you buy a 50ql axe and after some time it needs repair, you will end up at 40 ql left and you cannot increase its ql if improvements limit has been exhausted, you will have to buy a new 50ql axe. Simple solution for the biggest PvE economy problem.

 

Mining fix: Reducing the number of metal veins by roughly: current amount/20, increasing the quantity of ore in each vein: current * 50.

 

Winter fix: Freshwater reservoirs should freeze in winter so that they can be traveled on foot but not by the boat. Salt water does not freeze.

 

Farming fix: Snow-covered crops should freeze and die.

 

Animals fix: Young animals die in winter if they are outside.

 

Aggro fix: Wagons should have huge aggro range, carts a little smaller, rider even smaller. A character wearing metal armor should attract aggressive animals from a greater distance than the one wearing leather armor.

 

Combat fix: Fight with a wagon or cart -2 or more CR. Aggressive animals should attack animals attached to wagons and carts. Changing weapons during combat should be difficult and have a delay even after exiting combat. You shouldn't be able to change your armor during combat, and after exiting combat, you shouldn't be able to change your armor for a few minutes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Darnok

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Create a WU server with these changes and see how well it all goes over. After all, that is what WU is for.

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