Merge PvP and PvE

[Benalish 67]

he is just solving his own problems, not the games problems, after 10 post im finally giving a -1

[Benalish 67]

42 minutes ago, GorgonKain said:

Create a WU server with these changes and see how well it all goes over. After all, that is what WU is for.

this ^^

[Caduryn 129]

17 hours ago, Darnok said:

 

But why? I want to be able to kill anyone who comes close to them? And if you don't want to fight, buy a deed so big that you don't have to leave it.

Play on PvP Server....

[Nekojin 197]

10 hours ago, Darnok said:

The problem is that all solutions were designed for the PvP server, and PvE is just an unbalanced slice of these ideas.

I am looking for a solution that will either be a compromise on a combination of both or a new balanced PvE.

 

I understand that many of you have been playing Wurm for a long time and probably a little too long to be able to objectively perceive the source of the problems. You just got used to what it is and you want to force the new ones to do the same, because it's good, and it's good, because you got used to it.

 

Each piece of the game shows the differences between PvP and PvE. Maybe the basic deed (size/cost) for PvP is good enough, i.e. if other players are afraid to approach the buildings of strangers, in my opinion this size of the basic deed and perimeter should be enough.

But in PvE it is not possible (and KOS probably does not work as I suggest).

 

I understand that combining these three zones can be difficult  and it would take lots of time so maybe a different, faster approach. One map with slightly different rules and in 2021 Wurm will be the game of the year.

 

Ability to attack other players (by me and my guards), no matter what is their reputation, on your land (deed + perimeter) is a must in PvE and it should be turned on by default for everyone and only the characters I add to the list should be able to safely pass my perimeter and deed.

 

Deed size should be twice as large and the basic perimeter should be at least 100 tiles around basic deed for same price.

 

Economy Fix: Limited number of upgrades/improvements that can be done for each item, vehicle and crafting station (do not apply to walls and buildings). Thus, if you buy a 50ql axe and after some time it needs repair, you will end up at 40 ql left and you cannot increase its ql if improvements limit has been exhausted, you will have to buy a new 50ql axe. Simple solution for the biggest PvE economy problem.

 

Mining fix: Reducing the number of metal veins by roughly: current amount/20, increasing the quantity of ore in each vein: current * 50.

 

Winter fix: Freshwater reservoirs should freeze in winter so that they can be traveled on foot but not by the boat. Salt water does not freeze.

 

Farming fix: Snow-covered crops should freeze and die.

 

Animals fix: Young animals die in winter if they are outside.

 

Aggro fix: Wagons should have huge aggro range, carts a little smaller, rider even smaller. A character wearing metal armor should attract aggressive animals from a greater distance than the one wearing leather armor.

 

Combat fix: Fight with a wagon or cart -2 or more CR. Aggressive animals should attack animals attached to wagons and carts. Changing weapons during combat should be difficult and have a delay even after exiting combat. You shouldn't be able to change your armor during combat, and after exiting combat, you shouldn't be able to change your armor for a few minutes.

 

There's an old saying that perception is reality, but in this case, your perception is completely separated from reality. You're trying to make a harsh, hostile world that would be enjoyable by maybe 10% of the standard PvP crowd (and I'm not just talking the Wurm PvP crowd, I'm talking the entirety of PvP-focused gamers), and would be enjoyable to 0.001% of the PvE-minded gamers.

 

In other words, it's a losing proposition from the start. You're out of your mind if you think any of this would make the game better for the majority of the players. All you want is a world that caters to your ideals, your preferences... and your ability to gank at will. Rules that YOU will be demanding changes for the moment someone else figures out how to manipulate it better than you do, and you stop being the predator and start being the prey.

 

Edit: And you still haven't followed one of the other posters' suggestion to try out Defiance, and see how close that gets you to your ideal.

Edited September 12, 2020 by Nekojin

[atazs 962]

If you want to kill people, go to PvP.

If you want to protect your resources, deed them. Otherwise, the PvE server DOES NOT belong to you, and you have to share it with others. Don't like it? Go to the you know.... actual PvP server? Otherwise tough ######, it's an MMORPG

If you want safe zones in PvP,  go to Defiance

If you don't want to go to Defiance, because in your mind, you'd be starting over, then go to Northern Freedom isles where you have Chaos that is connected to the other PvE servers.

 

If all else fails, you still have Wurm Unlimited where you can customize your game however you wish, or just play on a single player server where you don't have to worry about anyone else.

 

There is a solution to all your problems.

 

You are also under the delusion that you would be able to protect your resources on your own, against groups of people, and just freely kill anyone you come across (or anyone who comes across your area) with no reprecussions. That's not how PvP works. Your anti social behavior and gameplay will get you nowhere on PvP and bring you only pain. But then you'd probably be coming here to try and change that too.... 

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by atazs

[Nekojin 197]

Some of the suggestions changed are based on reality, like the water freezing in winter, but it trades one too-simple concept (the current Wurm water) for another too-simple concept (all fresh water freezing, regardless of size).

 

Then there are other suggestions that are based loosely on gaming ideals (durability decay and replacement), but which completely ignore reality (tool replacement at the feudal level was rare, it was far more common for tools to be repaired, and damaged parts replaced, not making the entire thing just get gradually shittier until you dump it in the trash).

 

So it's clear that between these two examples alone, he's not focused on one fix ("make it more real" for example), he's just throwing out ideas that he thinks would improve the game. While completely ignoring that, like ganking, the idea of animals freezing to death in winter, but being perfectly OK indoors, is both a massive overhaul to the rules, and would be exceptionally damaging to new players. Once long-time players fully understood the effects, very little would have actually changed - it's just shuffling the deck chairs, not overhauling the ship.

 

The water freeze idea would also be a major overhaul to the rules, perhaps impossible without completely gutting and rebuilding the game from the ground up (at which point, why bother trying to fix this game, instead of making Wurm 2, or something?). All water in the game is the same water. The "fresh vs salty" is a simple computation that asks whether this exposed water can be traced to the edge of the map without hitting dirt; attempting to use that simple calculation to change how the water works and interacts with players is far more complex than I think he realizes.

 

The idea of automatic 100-tile perimeters has no foundation in anything resembling reality or gaming, it's just some fantasy idea that he thinks would be better (read: for him).

 

And so on. It's all garbage.

[Demonix 79]

 

On 9/11/2020 at 2:11 PM, Nekojin said:

 

Emphasis added. Amazon's new MMO, New World, was originally designed with the intent of being a three-faction PVP-centric game. They soon discovered that they had a problem with testing. Experienced Alpha testers were ganking the newbies at the first opportunity, which turned the new testers off from continuing to playtest the game. So they took away any actual rewards from killing people outside of a limited level range. The experienced players kept ganking newbies. Devs added some level protection where if the level difference was too great, the higher-level attacker would do minimal damage. So the gankers grouped up to gank newbies. So they pleaded to the community directly, pointing out that ganking the newbies was drastically reducing their playtest pool, and that they needed the testers, so please stop killing new players. The gankers kept on ganking newbies. The Devs threatened that if the newbie ganking didn't stop, they'd be forced to take open-world PvP completely out of the game, and then they'd not be able to gank anyone ever again. The gankers kept ganking newbies. 

 

So Open World reluctantly, and with a heavy sigh, removed open-world PvP from New World completely. The only PvP left in the game are in opt-in situations, Battlegrounds and Territory Wars, which do not take place in the open-world areas.  

 

Congratulations, gankers. You ganked yourselves. 

 

Edit: Here's an article about it. 

 

 

Are you kidding?  An MMO developer FINALLY figured that out?  You have my attention!

 

-puts New World on his watchlist-

[Nekojin 197]

8 minutes ago, Demonix said:

Are you kidding?  An MMO developer FINALLY figured that out?  You have my attention!

 

-puts New World on his watchlist-

Yes, they found it out, after completely ignoring the lessons learned over the last 30 years of RPG PvP gaming (including the pre-MMO stuff, like MUDs). They thought that the others were just doing it wrong. And the major overhauls of limiting and then removing open-world PvP only happened after they jettisoned the one lead dev who was gung ho about making the whole game a bloody battlefield.

Edited September 12, 2020 by Nekojin

[Kelody 333]

24 minutes ago, Nekojin said:

Yes, they found it out, after completely ignoring the lessons learned over the last 30 years of RPG PvP gaming (including the pre-MMO stuff, like MUDs). They thought that the others were just doing it wrong. And the major overhauls of limiting and then removing open-world PvP only happened after they jettisoned the one lead dev who was gung ho about making the whole game a bloody battlefield.

That pretty much sums up every pvp gung ho dev. They all delude themselves thinking they can make a pvp game that pve players will want to play. And time and again, pvp players hate the restrictions, or pve players hate the griefers/gankers, or both.

 

Even Wurm, with it's separate but equal approach has complaints from both sides that the other side diminishes their gameplay.

[Torgrim 403]

Why do PvP players (and devs sometimes) think PvE players would like to live on PvP servers?  PvE players generally don't want anything to do with PvP. It's the PvP:ers who wants some easy kills is all.. 

 

 

[christopher 207]

i agree ,pvp allways dies allways will

[elentari 2,660]

In any pvp game, there will come a % of toxic players that will do everything possible to ruin everyone else's immersion.

We had them in Wurm, where people made alts equipped with troll clubs and ganked newbies. Or spy alts. Or alts stealthed in mines to check various locations. Alts alts everywhere in wurm.

 

In Rust, you got OP veterans that can snipe new players easily.

In ultima, your belongings and your most prized possesions could be easily lost in pvp.

In WoW classic you got lvl 60 characters spending their time in lvl 20 zones killing players and quest npcs to prevent the players from actually progressing. Amusingly enough the 2 main types of servers in wow are defined as such 1. PvP   2. "Normal" . Whereas normal = opt in pvp in battlegrounds or flagging yourself for pvp. Funny ain't it? Pvp is not normal.

 

I can list a crap ton of mmos where pvp just meant you would be griefed, ganked and everything possible because the game design didn't restrict high level players destroying new players.

 

Long story short, there are keyboard sociopaths out there actively searching for gaming experiences to ruin other people's fun. Not hundreds, not thousands, but in the tens of thousands or 100s k? Very likely.

 

As with all things, PvP to thrive MUST be balanced. It will never be balanced in wurm if you don't restrict kingdom balance to never tip into one direction or another. WHich honestly is almost impossible to do.

 

At any point in time a kingdom will either: a )  become more populated (strength of numbers)

 

b ) become better equipped (strength of gear)

 

c) have better pvp leadership (strength of leadership and tactics)

 

d) have overall better experience and/or coordination (strength of skill)

 

When that point is reached, a kingdom will simply steam roll against others. It happened on chaos, it happened on Epic, it will eventually happen on defiance as well.

 

Merging pvp and pve is just a disaster waiting to happen. Wurm's core population is pve. Most updates over the years were intended for the Pve crown.

Wurm's pvp population as a result, left. Lack of pvp updates leads to stale pvp, and people no longer play there.

Are there any CA's on Epic left? Nope. Anyone that joins there will get a sad experience.

 

In any case. Wurm's PvE and PvP populations have to be kept separate. The only way to give pve'rs a taste of pvp would be to introduce instancing to wurm. Some small dungeons or arenas to fight in for example. That's about it.

 

 

[Elwood2 352]

hahahahah ahahahahaha......bhahahahaha

 

we know what happened in the past when rolf tried that trick on us!

[Nekojin 197]

I've yet to see a PvP game with level-progression or skill-progression (like Wurm!) actually have fair, balanced PvP. People with higher levels/skills/equipment will always steamroller the lower-level players, and will tend to do it aggressively, in the most lopsided setup they can manage. This is inevitable. 

 

You want to see the best, most balanced PvP possible? Look at Fortnite, PUBG, Apex Legends, and even Rocket League (Yes, I know you're laughing at that last one). Everyone is theoretically even the moment they jump out of the Battle Bus... and that changes the moment feet hit the ground. Perfect balance is impossible, as @elentarihas spelled out so elequently. I don't get #1 wins in Fortnite very often, because there are better players who spend more time playing it. That doesn't mean it's not worth playing, but you have to temper your expectations. 

 

And Wurm's PvP expectations means... you're going to see Battle-Priests dominating the battlefield, because they have a greater ability to take actions and abilities as a battle progresses, applying power where it needs to be applied. And for 1v1 PvP, it's gank-fests all the way down. 

[Chestburster 35]

What you are suggesting is a much different case than EVE.

 

In Wurm pretty much every bit of character improvement and grinding is done through PvE actions and can be done completely on PvE servers. Even training fight skills which is critical for PvP is done through fighting animals and monsters. 

 

PvP is in a way kind of like the endgame of PvE. You don't get much out of it except for the occasional loot or affinity and the majority of the game is preparing yourself to PvP through PvE.

 

When you start to mix PvP with PvE you start to kill off PvP by reducing the benefits to being on a PvP server. PvE areas essentially become safezones because like I said earlier most of the gameplay on PvP servers is preparing for PvP.

 

Think about it.

 

• Kingdoms need to spread their influence and gain hold to build deeds and have claim to certain areas for safety and resources.
• PvPers need deeds for safety and to actively skill and create resources in.
• Kingdom spread and active deeds are obviously needed to create territory struggle, conflict, and conquest. 
• Territory struggle, conflict, and conquest is needed for a good PvP environment, otherwise it's just people just running around and murdering others when they feel like it.

So if you were to provide PvPers somewhere to safely store their items in and skill and gather resources, there would be no reason to build deeds or gain any influence in the areas that are PvP, and people can already duel each other for simple kills on PvE. Not to mention having PvE and PvP zones on a server would completely remove the hassle of transporting things over from PvE to PvP chaos had. It would also create a huge opportunity for unwanted griefing by having the area where people are able to destroy and steal things but also killed for it as punishment be one step away from the area where stealing, destroying, and killing cannot be done and bypassing it is against the rules. PvP would become non-existent. The quality gap you proposed wouldn't matter as this wouldn't have really any effect on grinding things out for PvP.

 

Instead the quality gap would actually be terrible for PvE players who don't have PvP as their endgame and work towards building unique structures and crafting the highest quality gear and items instead. PvE players would have no interest in playing somewhere where they were capped in safezones and were forced into an area of the game that is PvP to actually play PvE because they only want to play PvE.

 

The map you suggested would basically just force PvP players to play PvE and PvE players to PvP and ruin the part of the game that they want to play. There are both experienced PvP and PvE players in this thread that are trying telling you why this is such a bad idea, and some them have played for over a decade and have know the exact reasons why it succeeds or fails and have personally seen the game die and come back to life because of these reasons over the years. You are arguing with them with the very basic knowledge you have from playing PvE on this game for about a month with no knowledge on how PvP works and don't seem to quite grasp why none of what you are suggesting makes sense. 

 

If you are looking to make money to buy items, then I really suggest you just try playing PvP for a bit. There are so many people that would be happier on PvP and don't know it. On PvP servers your entire kingdom is working towards a common goal instead of people just working towards their individual goal. People will literally just make you things for free that cost several silver on Harmony Cadence and Melody because it is important for everyone to have people well equipped and highly skilled. Then you can go gather things for crafters and builders and fight in battles to succeed in the war effort if you want. There isn't really much of an economy here because of this, and wanting to create a brand new server to trade with PvPers because you need money to buy items is way more convoluted than just joining them.

 

You also pretty much never get killed unless you go near enemy territory. There are numerous allied deeds you'd have to pass by to get deeper into a kingdoms territory in most cases. Any single person who walks near them would be extremely lucky to not end up dead, and a threat that couldn't be handled this way would have the entire kingdom notified and people coordinate against them. Hell I literally go AFK for over an hour sometimes when I'm in the southern part of the map just out in the open. The two times I was actually killed since server launch was when I wandered too much off the border and the people who killed me left my stuff behind because they are simply looking for PvP and want people to stay on the server.

[TheTrickster 2,279]

On 9/10/2020 at 7:24 PM, Darnok said:

You are all wrong

 

...  I think I can see where you may be going a bit awry in your persuasion ....

 

 

Eve is a whole different beast, with an entirely different dynamic (and the "map" is arguable not really a map so much as a directory). Arguing popularity=quality is also not helpful.  Greasy burgers made of ears, noses and other openings are far more popular than slow-cooked grade A rib fillets, but I wouldn't want to argue that they are therefore better.  

 

 

 

[TheTrickster 2,279]

On 9/12/2020 at 9:09 AM, Darnok said:

 

But why? I want to be able to kill anyone who comes close to them? And if you don't want to fight, buy a deed so big that you don't have to leave it.

 

What your really saying is you want to play PVP but only in a way that prevents you from losing anything and you want to PVP players who don't want PVP.  Righteo, then.

 

Hard pass, thanks.

[christopher 207]

did u ever think that may help keep it viable die but dont lose your gear

[elentari 2,660]

Also what I forgot to mention that for those who put in the gold to maintain a kingdom, PvP is actually a big money sink in the realm of 100s of Euros since maintaining a capital + hota/war deeds gets expensive over time. Buying tomes/cherries from the pve market is also expensive.

 

I don't want to necesarily call it full pay to win, but there are advantages for those who have deep pockets. They won't buy you victories, but having funds for a prolonged war effort shifts the balance over time.

Dunno, think buying 300 high ql shields to sac for dmg bonus? Is that still a thing nowadays?

[Lolabelle 597]

On 9/11/2020 at 7:03 PM, Darnok said:

 

Outside of deed? I mean you can kill trolls, but you can't stop one noob with hatchet cutting trees you planted week ago...

on deed you can or you can build walls around.  Have done this many times over the year. But if you combine PVP and PVE the game will die  AGAIN

[Lolabelle 597]

Rolf made the mistake once of tyring to get the 500 PVE people to play with the 6 PVP people. They went well...... NOT 

Edited September 15, 2020 by Lolabelle

[Elwood2 352]

7 hours ago, Lolabelle said:

on deed you can or you can build walls around.  Have done this many times over the year. But if you combine PVP and PVE the game will die  AGAIN

 

7 hours ago, Lolabelle said:

Rolf made the mistake once of tyring to get the 500 PVE people to play with the 6 PVP people. They went well...... NOT 

you and me both, we've been there ourselves