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Zera

Silver Trading

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Also from the Game Agreement:

CodeClub approves of sharing User Generated Material based on video, music, sound or screenshots from our game Wurm Online.

 

So if I take a screenshot of my deed plan I can share this with someone else and receive something back because it is BASED ON a screenshot.

 

Same with art.

Edited by Opaveus

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3 minutes ago, Opaveus said:

Also from the Game Agreement:

CodeClub approves of sharing User Generated Material based on video, music, sound or screenshots from our game Wurm Online.

You can just stop quoting the ToS now, because I can't see you really going anywhere with this that is in anyway related or helpful to the discussion at hand here.
 

4 minutes ago, zCat said:

So if I pay someone 10$ for a deed plan, out of game, no Wurm or Code Club assets involved so perfectly legal.

The other person then buys the deed plan from me for 10 silver  Legal because Retrogrades said so. No offense has occured.

 

 

According to "Wurm" yes.
Because it is both Wurm Assets and Not Wurm Assets. So it can be sold for both in-game coin and RMT.

Which is exactly again, part of that deep grey area that is unclear.

Edited by Zera

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I am curious though, is it against TOS/Rules to use in-game coin to trade for game-related (in a way) trading of say Graphics?

Let me explain:

As an Art Creator, is it against the Rules to offer the exchange of Graphics for Forum posts, Wurm Art, or otherwise in exchange for Silvers in Wurm?

 

CodeClub approves of sharing User Generated Material based on video, music, sound or screenshots from our game Wurm Online.

 

Silver has no real world value.

 

Therefore the sharing of user generated material (art, deedplans, etc.) and the purchase of said material using in game silver is allowed. The purchasing of art with Real World Currency is also allowed because it is not for an in game service. It is for a User Generated Material. Purchasing a deed plan service with real world currency is also allowed based on this and also with silver.

 

I am answering your question..so it is related.

Edited by Opaveus

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21 minutes ago, Opaveus said:

I am curious though, is it against TOS/Rules to use in-game coin to trade for game-related (in a way) trading of say Graphics?

Let me explain:

As an Art Creator, is it against the Rules to offer the exchange of Graphics for Forum posts, Wurm Art, or otherwise in exchange for Silvers in Wurm?

 

CodeClub approves of sharing User Generated Material based on video, music, sound or screenshots from our game Wurm Online.

 

Silver has no real world value.

 

Therefore the sharing of user generated material (art, deedplans, etc.) and the purchase of said material using in game silver is allowed. The purchasing of art with Real World Currency is also allowed because it is not for an in game service. It is for a User Generated Material. Purchasing a deed plan service with real world currency is also allowed based on this and also with silver.

 

I am answering your question..so it is related.

Except you skipped the part where Retrograde has stated before you that it is not allowed.

  

On 9/14/2020 at 12:05 AM, Retrograde said:

A deed design is within the realms of selling services for silver.

 

I have confirmed that commissioning art and other out of game assets are not okay. I apologise for any misleading! 

 

Apparently using In-Game silver for any "out of game service" is against the rules.
This includes, Art, Images, Videos, Music and one would think Deed Planner plan-files.

EXCEPT Deed Planner plan-files ARE allowed. Despite the fact that they are created, used and an entirely out-of-game thing.
There is nothing tangible in-game in this trade-off for a tangible in-game silver.
Which is where all my questions here are coming from, as to why this is an OK format and allowed, where-as others are not.

When there is no Real World Currency involved in any way shape or form in my proposed question, it's not OK. However a Deed Planner file can be counted as both OK and Not OK because it is not technically an in-game asset so it can be sold for RMT as well as Silver.

Edited by Zera

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Until the Game Agreement says otherwise it is allowed, regardless of what retrograde says. (no offense, retrograde)

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1 hour ago, Opaveus said:

Until the Game Agreement says otherwise it is allowed, regardless of what retrograde says. (no offense, retrograde)

Except all you've quoted here is "Silver has no real world value" and "approves of sharing User Generated Material based on video, music, sound or screenshots from our game Wurm Online."

Which clarifies absolutely nothing about Selling for In-Game coin or Real World Cash.
Sharing is not defined as "Selling" or "Trading".
All this says is "Silver does not have a Real World Cash value" and "You can share screenshots, videos, music and sounds from our game".

It clarifies nothing about trades for Graphics that are not from in-game for in-game coin.
Nor does it clarify why Deed Planner images/files are considered in-game assets when they are not actually/technically/factually in-game rather than what they are as representation of in-game.

 

Which as I've stated to you twice or more now, was the intent of this post. Looking for Official statement on what, why and how these things are considered to be what they are and handled how they are.

 

 

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I am in no way advocating going against a moderators authority.

 

The EULA states:

We do not allow any bartering for out of game assets.

 

We do not allow any "exchange of goods or services for other goods or services without using money" for out of game assets which is defined as "a useful or valuable thing, person, or quality".

 

So...you have to purchase User Generated Materials using real world money and not in-game silvers if you are trading for other User Generated Materials to be in compliance with the EULA as in game silvers have no real world value.

 

However, the EULA states that you can share user generated material, you just can't trade it for other user generated material for free, or use in-game silvers because they have no cash value. There has to be a monetary transaction involved. So you both have to purchase it for some amount of money from each other.

 

You have to purchase Deed Design Plans using real world money according to the EULA but falls under selling services for silver according to Retrograde.

 

You can not trade graphics that are not from in-game without having a monetary transaction involved.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Opaveus

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Simply put you can NOT use ingame silver for any kind of service outside of the game so bob can pay silver to get charlie to terraform his deed for him but bob cant pay charlie for a deed planner design with silver because that is out of the game but charlie can give bob the deed design and charlie then works on it and bob pays for the work done(not for the deed design itself)

The point is creating content for wurm is fine getting paid for wurm content is fine you just are not allowed to pay someone via ingame silver for rl services if you want to get paid for your service charge usd/euro for it if its a service like designing a deed or designing art but anything that interacts with the game directly eg you building said deed needs to be done ingame and paid for by silver as even a deed building service technically holds a value of silver due to items used

So in simple terms any service ingame needs to be paid for by silver/items ingame and any service outside of the game needs to be paid for with rl money and cant be paid for for silver/goods from within the game how this is hard to grasp is beyond me  do we need a tree diagram to explain it?

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7 hours ago, wipeout said:

Simply put you can NOT use ingame silver for any kind of service outside of the game so bob can pay silver to get charlie to terraform his deed for him but bob cant pay charlie for a deed planner design with silver because that is out of the game but charlie can give bob the deed design and charlie then works on it and bob pays for the work done(not for the deed design itself)

The point is creating content for wurm is fine getting paid for wurm content is fine you just are not allowed to pay someone via ingame silver for rl services if you want to get paid for your service charge usd/euro for it if its a service like designing a deed or designing art but anything that interacts with the game directly eg you building said deed needs to be done ingame and paid for by silver as even a deed building service technically holds a value of silver due to items used

So in simple terms any service ingame needs to be paid for by silver/items ingame and any service outside of the game needs to be paid for with rl money and cant be paid for for silver/goods from within the game how this is hard to grasp is beyond me  do we need a tree diagram to explain it?

But here's where that big ol' question keeps coming up, according to Retrograde:
Deed Planner (A Deed Design) is approved as an In-Game transaction and thus should be expected to trade Silver for said service.
Despite there being no "physical in-game" trade of any kind occuring.

So no, YOU don't have to explain anything.
WURM needs to explain everything.
Because apparently DEED PLANNER is considered an in-game transaction despite there being no in-game physical interaction occuring outside of handing off Silver. In which case is no different than an RMT action. Yet it is approved transaction as per stated by Retrograde.

 

So anyone else here trying to tell me that X or Y is or isn't OK is no longer answering any of my questions because I'm not asking you. I am looking for OFFICIAL STATEMENT as to WHY Deed Planner's obvious RMT transaction is considered an OK and Approved Transaction within' game, despite the before mentioned points.

 

7 hours ago, wipeout said:

bob cant pay charlie for a deed planner design with silver because that is out of the game

But Retrograde said: "This Allowed"  

7 hours ago, wipeout said:

but charlie can give bob the deed design and charlie then works on it and bob pays for the work done(not for the deed design itself)

THIS is occurring and I want to know WHY THIS is approved
 

 

7 hours ago, wipeout said:

So in simple terms any service ingame needs to be paid for by silver/items ingame and any service outside of the game needs to be paid for with rl money and cant be paid for for silver/goods from within the game how this is hard to grasp is beyond me  do we need a tree diagram to explain it?

Obviously, but I suppose you need to try to keep up here. Since you're missing bits and pieces of the problem I am having here because as everyone has apparently missed, there's been made an exception and it's obvious you've missed that because you've used that exact exception in your examples....

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does this mean i can't pay someone irl money for a deed plan, but i can pay them for artwork as its unrelated to the game

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12 hours ago, Opaveus said:

You can not trade graphics that are not from in-game without having a monetary transaction involved.

First off, this is absolutely ridiculous and Wurm or CodeClub has no say what-so-ever in whatever I choose to do with my own personal Product, whether it's art or my car.
If I decide to trade it with someone or give it away for free, they have ZERO legal say on the matter. It is not their property.

When any such content pertains to in-game, then they can control that. But if I decided to just hand you a piece of art/graphic of my own accord without Wurm involvement or trade in return, that is my prerogative and right to do so. It is my property 100% and Wurm has absolutely no claim or legal power over it. Period.

 

12 hours ago, Opaveus said:

We do not allow any "exchange of goods or services for other goods or services without using money" for out of game assets which is defined as "a useful or valuable thing, person, or quality".

I believe here they are actually referring to in-game goods or services for other outside-game goods or services. AKA RMT transactions.
Not that their requiring anyone who so chooses to make trade outside of game goods/services entirely.

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9 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

does this mean i can't pay someone irl money for a deed plan, but i can pay them for artwork as its unrelated to the game

Who said the artwork wouldn't be game related though?
What if said artwork is an oil painting of your Deed? Isn't that game related?

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20 hours ago, Zera said:
Quote
20 hours ago, Ekcin said:

Similarly, a high level miner and prospector may map and prospect a player's mine for silver, and deliver the research results in spreadsheet formats

 

This however is entirely different, this is a task taken place directly in-game. How the results are portrayed is completely irrelevant.

 

Maybe you do not know such maps (this is one of my mine beneath my deed, and only a small part of a larger map (the water table about 900 slope beneath the road level):

 

cFjF1xr.png?3

 

I don't know how others do it, but I found that useful, holding some information about resource, amount, slope, reinforcement etc. It is definitely not an ingame activity to create. Though Deedplanner is certainly ways more complex, the work is comparable. Ingame data taken are only the starting point. I might even design plans of such a map from analyze results denoting future work, as Deedplanner may depict an already completed deed (the owner may feel unable to represent it in Deedplanner in full).

Edited by Ekcin

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1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

 

Maybe you do not know such maps (this is one of my mine beneath my deed, and only a small part of a larger map (the water table about 900 slope beneath the road level):

 

cFjF1xr.png?3

 

I don't know how others do it, but I found that useful, holding some information about resource, amount, slope, reinforcement etc. It is definitely not an ingame activity to create. Though Deedplanner is certainly ways more complex, the work is comparable. Ingame data taken are only the starting point. I might even design plans of such a map from analyze results denoting future work, as Deedplanner may depict an already completed deed (the owner may feel unable to represent it in Deedplanner in full).

Creating/Editing a Deed Planner file only requires an initial Export from a token by the Deed Mayor.
Beyond that there is no further in-game action taken, and certainly none from those who sell the Deed Planner plan.

By surveying or checking data in a mine, all actions are taken in-game except for the logging of the data. Whether it be in this similar format or otherwise. An ingame character is still going tile by tile, examining, prospecting, each tile to gather that data.

The two are by no means comparable in this regard.
It is not exactly about how it's presented at this point, rather than where and how the work itself is done. Since the argument has become "in-game service" apparently.

And while I understand that exporting a Deed to DeedPlanner is the most efficient route to go about it, I still cannot say from where I stand that I can consider it an "in-game service" as there is no "in-game" about it. It goes from a file produced by the game, to a file sold to a player, so that the purchasing player can then work towards recreation of the file.
There is no actual "in-game labor" that is occuring for me to consider it "an in-game service".

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12 hours ago, Zera said:

But here's where that big ol' question keeps coming up, according to Retrograde:
Deed Planner (A Deed Design) is approved as an In-Game transaction and thus should be expected to trade Silver for said service.
Despite there being no "physical in-game" trade of any kind occuring.

So no, YOU don't have to explain anything.
WURM needs to explain everything.
Because apparently DEED PLANNER is considered an in-game transaction despite there being no in-game physical interaction occuring outside of handing off Silver. In which case is no different than an RMT action. Yet it is approved transaction as per stated by Retrograde.

 

So anyone else here trying to tell me that X or Y is or isn't OK is no longer answering any of my questions because I'm not asking you. I am looking for OFFICIAL STATEMENT as to WHY Deed Planner's obvious RMT transaction is considered an OK and Approved Transaction within' game, despite the before mentioned points.

 

But Retrograde said: "This Allowed"  

THIS is occurring and I want to know WHY THIS is approved
 

 

Obviously, but I suppose you need to try to keep up here. Since you're missing bits and pieces of the problem I am having here because as everyone has apparently missed, there's been made an exception and it's obvious you've missed that because you've used that exact exception in your examples....

Show me the exact post where retro says "deedplanner is a exception and is allowed" as the last post i saw in this topic from him says that it is seen as and i quote "A deed design is within the realms of selling services for silver."  which was a reply made to the the question of if selling deed planner designs is a "out of game service for silver" thing or not

Could it have been worded better? yes what was written below especially the 2nd sentence is missing a few words but it shows what was meant to be said the part that i assume is missing i will add in my next sentence along with his entire sentence while leaving the existing post there for reference

"I have confirmed that commissioning art and other out of game assets for in-game silver are not okay. I apologise for any misleading!"

  

On 9/14/2020 at 4:05 PM, Retrograde said:

A deed design is within the realms of selling services for silver.

 

I have confirmed that commissioning art and other out of game assets are not okay. I apologise for any misleading! 



When adding the words "for in-game silver" that sentence makes more sense for someone like you who is trying to be nit picky and go on about how cc and wurm staff have no "legal say on if i sell my car or art" like come on you should know what retro meant he was not talking about how by you playing wurm you are not allowed to sell your car he was talking about the whole point of selling services or art for ingame silver but i guess when you want to nitpick you want to nitpick

But end of the day any service you provide you can NOT charge silver for period it is really that simple if you need to ask "can i do this for ingame silver" and this is out of the game the answer is no doesnt matter what it is if its art a service or what as the rules themselves specifically state so

Silver coins in wurm hold no value as has been said many times by the staff and thus they are not a currency to be used for out of game trading and thus fall under bartering part of their rules and that is not allowed as per march 1th 2020


The only way this can be explained any easier to someone who is just trying to nitpick and find a way around it(i assume) is to have gcg come out and post up here straight up saying "no trading of silver for anything out of game period go check the rules" as my guess is only then will you stop trying to make it seem like there is this big issue when there really isnt


Sorry but its that simple no silver trade for anything outside of game

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Silver should be allowed to exchange for real life money. 

This is the direction more games will take in the future and for me honestly, I think its great because i dont feel

like my time thats invaluable is wasted and somehow an investment.

 

Dont be left behind - make tracks to a cash economy game... look at project entropia.. they doing just fine.

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11 hours ago, wipeout said:

Show me the exact post where retro says "deedplanner is a exception and is allowed" as the last post i saw in this topic from him says that it is seen as and i quote "A deed design is within the realms of selling services for silver."  which was a reply made to the the question of if selling deed planner designs is a "out of game service for silver" thing or not

"A Deed Design is within the Realms of selling services for silver" when referencing a Deed Planner plan file.
IS saying Deed Planner files in exchange for Silver is allowed.

A Deed Planner FILE that is created, edited, altered, and sent offline Wurm.

 

I'm starting to feel as though you are the one who is looking to nitpick here and read as you want to read.

11 hours ago, wipeout said:

I have confirmed that commissioning art and other out of game assets are not okay. I apologise for any misleading! 

"Out of game assets". I've already covered this, but for what appears to be your sake of nitpicking, you appear to have ignored every statement I've made on the matter.

 

11 hours ago, wipeout said:

When adding the words "for in-game silver" that sentence makes more sense for someone like you who is trying to be nit picky and go on about how cc and wurm staff have no "legal say on if i sell my car or art" like come on you should know what retro meant he was not talking about how by you playing wurm you are not allowed to sell your car he was talking about the whole point of selling services or art for ingame silver but i guess when you want to nitpick you want to nitpick

Stop skipping around and trying to take things out of context.
You take my examples in reply to someone else's statements and attempt to twist and use them here in a whole other light.
Just stop.. This is the big red flag that says to me you're trying to nitpick at anything I say now.
Especially considering this was not in any reference to anything that Retro or any other Member of the Team has said here...

 

11 hours ago, wipeout said:

The only way this can be explained any easier to someone who is just trying to nitpick and find a way around it(i assume) is to have gcg come out and post up here straight up saying "no trading of silver for anything out of game period go check the rules" as my guess is only then will you stop trying to make it seem like there is this big issue when there really isnt

Then stop beating your own Dead Horse, because you're obviously not understanding what I'm continuing to ask here and are only looking to start nitpicking at anything I've said and either:
A. Taking it entirely out of context.
B. Completely ignoring where and why I've said the things I have, ergo not entirely following this thread here and are just picking and choosing where you wanna pick up from... ERGO: Taking things out of context

C. Don't look at things the way I see them and have your own personal way of understanding and accepting things and thus CANNOT understand my confusion and NEED for an understanding of the current situational question.

 

 

TLDR: The Question has Changed! Stop trying to twist every little thing I've said out of context and try to sound all "I'm smurt" because you're only making yourself look like you're not following anything at all.

Edited by Zera

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THE NEW QUESTION:

If no out of game service or assets can be sold/traded for in-game silver.

Why then, does a Deed Planner file which is exported from a game (by the requesting player), edited outside of a game (by the selling player), saved to a file/format outside of a game and then sent as an out-side-of-game file, considered an in-game service/asset?

 

Spoiler

I'll post it here for those of you who apparently have decided to skip around and only see what you want to see in this thread....
BUT you'll likely skip right over this post too


Is this not a form of RMT as it is a "service" provided outside of game, away from the game, and produced entirely as a file separate from the game?

 

I am all for "Deed Plan earn Silver" but the technical use of Deed Planner to do it and the trading of a Deed Planner File in exchange for Silver itself, which was created entirely separate from game mind you, is not part of the game.

So why is this outside service, outside file, outside action considered an OK form of RMT?

OR What makes it not an RMT?
Where is this line drawn that makes a Deed Planner File, OK and considered as an in-game service?

When I think of "in-game" service or asset, I think of something that can be performed in-game, put into a trade-window in-game or unloaded/loaded to a cart/wagon/ship in-game. Deed Planner does not fall under any of these categories.

Edited by Zera

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On 9/14/2020 at 6:05 AM, Retrograde said:

A deed design is within the realms of selling services for silver.

 

I have confirmed that commissioning art and other out of game assets are not okay. I apologise for any misleading! 

 

Is retros answer not good enough for you??????

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2 minutes ago, Maiya said:

 

Is retros answer not good enough for you??????

Not when it leaves me with so many other questions... -.-

 

And I will not be bullied by the rest of you to just stop asking to have those questions officially answered, because so far it's apparent no non-Wurm-Team can understand my other questions.

No one said any of you had to be here, following the thread or otherwise.

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Let me just bring one Point into this discussion why i think Rules have to be precise (especially if you sell virtual currency to Users):

 

Not all Users are native speakers or good in your language , so you have to keep riles simple precise and not interpretable.

This is exactly where this "grey zones" can get a problem.

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This is all going too far. Civil/penal codes in RL are trying "to be precise" resulting in thousands/hundreds of articles, each with subsections. We do not need that.

 

Retro has specified that using Deedplanner to design an ingame deed as a service for ingame silver is inside the rules. Endless arguing about does not change that.

 

The baseline is: Ingame currency for ingame stuff, no RMT for ingame stuff, and no silver for RL goods or services.

 

If unsure, just ask the team, file a support ticket or what else.

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Still waiting on that clarification from official source on how this decision was made in the end.

 

No longer giving the community the time of day as they either cannot or refuse to understand what it is I'm looking for an answer to.

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@Retrogradecan we get some clarification on it as it seems some take your post in different ways(me included) compared to others and zera really really wants an answer from you that is clear and precise on the matter so pretty please? ❤️ we will even give you a cherry for your troubles

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On 9/8/2020 at 4:45 PM, Radni said:

Idk, sounds like they're paying 20s for a 50ql hammer and getting artwork free.


The classic "they're paying 20s for a 50ql hammer and getting 50$ for free"

If the goods being paid for are not worth the price paid for them, but are accompanied by more valuable goods, the money is being paid for the more valuable goods. 

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