Zera

Silver Trading

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So I know that Real World Money Trade is against the TOS/Rules now and I'm all for that change.
Though it was nice knowing (in the past) that whatever time and effort we'd put into the game was left to our choice of what to do with it in the long-run, not that I ever participated in the RWTrading.

 

I am curious though, is it against TOS/Rules to use in-game coin to trade for game-related (in a way) trading of say Graphics?

Let me explain:

As an Art Creator, is it against the Rules to offer the exchange of Graphics for Forum posts, Wurm Art, or otherwise in exchange for Silvers in Wurm?

 

This isn't "Real Cash for Wurm Coin" trading in any form, so is this allowed?

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Quick answer: 

Quote

B ) We do not allow any bartering for out of game assets.

 

I'd say artwork/graphics etc. *might* fall under out of game assets.

Better safe than sorry ;)

Edited by neopherus
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Would hate to see a ban happen.  Just be safe and not risk it.  Sell your services (great work!) and then use the proceeds to buy silvers. 

 

Edit: Probably looks better on the books to show you are generating revenue, rather than pixels from your art sales.

Edited by Wurmhole
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Idk, sounds like they're paying 20s for a 50ql hammer and getting artwork free.

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Silvers already in the game being given to a person in return for art? Yes

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46 minutes ago, wipeout said:

Silvers already in the game being given to a person in return for art? Yes

do you want to make me millionaire

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I think the issue is

https://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/179100-wts-design-of-deeds-or-interior-for-your-deeds/

 

where someone is offering to do out of game work and wants to be paid in silvers. The post is a few days old and very visible so apperas to be allowed.

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I would think designing a deed should count as an in-game service, but it is an interesting point. Especially as a lot of it can be done out of game with deedplanner. 

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3 hours ago, zCat said:

I think the issue is

https://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/179100-wts-design-of-deeds-or-interior-for-your-deeds/

 

where someone is offering to do out of game work and wants to be paid in silvers. The post is a few days old and very visible so apperas to be allowed.

thats not out of game work.....how can you get it to that ????

 

he say:

Quote

Hello, I'm Gofs/Torkell, I finished and sold total 4 deeds 3 at Xana, and 2 at Pri,
I think Wurm is beautiful, very impressive by possibilities game, where possible to create very nice deed's. 
For example build deeds not just for skill up, but with some general idea, like Pirates deed (at some island), or Monastyr deed (somewhere at mountains) 
I gonna put some examples of my works here :

 

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3 hours ago, zCat said:

I think the issue is

https://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/179100-wts-design-of-deeds-or-interior-for-your-deeds/

 

where someone is offering to do out of game work and wants to be paid in silvers. The post is a few days old and very visible so apperas to be allowed.

I have to agree here, using Deedplanner to come up with a design and layout for someone else's deed certainly counts as an "outside game" service.
Yes it is FOR in the game, just as what my original question was.
Offering to create a Banner for a Shop Ad or something of the like could be seen in the exact same way.

Deedplanner Image/Plan FILE sent to a user in exchange for in-game silver isn't any different than
Graphic Image sent to a user in exchange for in-game silver

They're both a FILE or IMAGE sent a user in exchange for in-game silver.
They're both used in relation to Wurm Online by the user.

It would be nice to have an official statement on this one.

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Yes it should be against ToS. It is still a form of currency exchange just without an extra step. In stead of direct exchange of currency of silver, you are exchanging art for silver. That art then can be sold for real money.

Adding an extra layer does not change what the it is.

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That other post really should be taken down as they do not want ANY RMT

 

Account / Item Sales

A ) We do not allow account selling, gifting, or transferring of any kind!

(Any accounts purchased 'pre-rmt ban' will be considered owned by the person who purchased them) Own the email, Own the account!

B ) We do not allow any bartering for out of game assets.

C ) We do not offer support or service for any remedial action or loss that occurs for circumventing these rules.     


Deedplanner maps are out of game assets and thus by rules stated here It should be against the rules as they are providing a service to barter a file for silver

 

If suddenly such things are to be allowed just wait for the same type of small house deed with a few changes to be put up in order to use that as a means to justify giving someone silver while on the back side transferring real money around and yes this will happen this happens in other games this will happen here too
A few of us spend a lot of time coming up with could be possible ways to still do rmt and get away with it and frankly there are many ways from overpriced items(charge 1s a item 20 items then drop items back on the guys deed after a few weeks) to exact idea's like this offering art/services to gain silver under the guise of "hey we are providing our skills to help the community with nice pretty deed plans" while on the backend its used to transfer money around to straight up using pvp kingdoms that exist to just load a toon with silver in some random satchel in a group and "forget" it was there and transfer like 1g in 1 go to the "enemy" and the final one that i found rather interesting, Do drake hide/blood trades at dragon slayings and pay way higher then market value for all of it while doing a real money transfer afterwards

There are more but these few should drive the point across that the post you mentioned before makes way for a loophole in rmt to be possible without any clear detection after all "hey can you make me a deed design" "sure lets talk on discord this is my id" and thats it on the forums for communication and soon after a day or 2 later a buttload of silver is transfered and if gms investigate it comes across as "legit" as other players are doing this kinda thing too
The over priced items and drake hide ones are easier to catch onto if it happens often and it gets talked about but the deedplanner way is legit untracable the moment they leave the forums and a fake convo can be created on discord to show as "proof" if gms get really picky or you just go "no why should i share out of platform private conversations with you"

So ya that whole silver for deedplanner idea is nice and all but it is RMT as services for silver falls under B

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Hm, let's imagine it's in other way, for sure i can come to place that need to be planned, and try to drop shafts on floor, in correct directions to create picture of deed, as i cant even use paint to draw a deed, this way then. Seems not really cool...

But from other side deed planner, is only tool that made for wurm, cant imagine usage of it out of game. So i'd say that as tool that made to help with > building deeds, it's only help me to create design of future deed, but not something out of game.. What you think of it? 

 

I also ask to click on deed token to take deed plan, may i draw on it after then? to dont break rules? :) 

Edited by Gofs
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14 hours ago, Gofs said:

Hm, let's imagine it's in other way, for sure i can come to place that need to be planned, and try to drop shafts on floor, in correct directions to create picture of deed, as i cant even use paint to draw a deed, this way then. Seems not really cool...

But from other side deed planner, is only tool that made for wurm, cant imagine usage of it out of game. So i'd say that as tool that made to help with > building deeds, it's only help me to create design of future deed, but not something out of game.. What you think of it? 

 

I also ask to click on deed token to take deed plan, may i draw on it after then? to dont break rules? :) 

Using an external program to create a file(that holds the design of said deed) to then share said file to a player of the game in exchange of silver

That is what you are doing you are doing a barter system to get your hands on silver by using a external tool to create something if suddenly that kind of bartering was to be allowed then a can of worms is opened up that will let rmt run rampant in disguise(not that it doesnt happen anyway)

I am all for the idea itself a service to create deed designs for silver vs entire deeds build by you for silver but it is bartering silver for out of game services no matter how you try to word it and as such should fall under that rule if you believe that providing a service to create a file that holds information that doesnt get imported back into the game should be allowed then so should votip's art be valid for silver transfer from 1 account to another
So should a singular pixel be worth something to someone as both of those examples are basically the same as what you are trying to push for

 

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A deed design is within the realms of selling services for silver.

 

I have confirmed that commissioning art and other out of game assets are not okay. I apologise for any misleading! 

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On 9/14/2020 at 12:05 AM, Retrograde said:

A deed design is within the realms of selling services for silver.

 

I have confirmed that commissioning art and other out of game assets are not okay. I apologise for any misleading! 

If the only argument here is "game assets" then does Deed Planner files not also fall into this category?
Deed Planner files are out-of-game assets only intended for use with wurm. No matter which way you look at it.

The same could be said for someone making a collage of images of in-game, whether that be of a Deed, Player, Items and so forth to produce a file itself.

While yes a "Deed Plan" is considered an in-game service, but with the use of Deed Planner and the exchange of said Deed Planner file (which isn't a game asset) creates that deepening "grey area".

 

It's the exact same thing no matter how you look at it here.

Deed Planner files are not "game assets" any more than someone selling a screenshot or a collection of screenshots from within the game itself.

 

This is a very horrible grey area you're creating by allowing the selling of Deed Planner files and then claiming "Game Assets" when Deed Planner itself is not game assets and only represents said game assets.

And if we're to look at the "For use in game" would not a Shop-Banner or Deed-Banner for a thread post considered "in-game" to the same degree? Deed Planner files are a representation of in-game, which is the same argument that could be applied to a Deed's Banner, Shop's Banner, etc;

Edited by Zera

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I feel that Deed Planner services should be allowed. The deed planner file is a game asset as it is generated from within the game using the Export Plan feature. Are youtube videos allowed? They are using game assets to generate real money by providing services as instructional videos to users.

 

The silvers being used to pay for the deed plan service were purchased in game and can not leave the game.

 

The whole purpose of these is to not go against Steam's TOS. You can not use real money in a barter. You can use ingame currency that was purchased or earned as it can not leave the game to become real money again. The end user can not sell silvers for real money. Therefore it is not a real money transaction.

Edited by Opaveus

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6 minutes ago, Opaveus said:

I feel that Deed Planner services should be allowed. The deed planner file is a game asset as it is generated from within the game using the Export Plan feature. Are youtube videos allowed? They are using game assets to generate real money by providing services as instructional videos to users.

 

The silvers being used to pay for the deed plan service were purchased in game and can not leave the game. Therefore it is not a real money transaction.

 

No Silver bought ingame can leave the game.. It's simply not possible, so this is kind of pointless statement to make.

 

Deed Planner is a third-party program though, regardless of whether or not Wurm has allowed an integration between the two. It's still not technically "Wurm" it's an outside tool.
Which is where that "Grey area" I mentioned comes into play. It isn't Wurm nor Wurm Assets so much as it is an outside Tool/Service for wurm.

 

I'm not saying that having someone offer Deed Planning services should be against said rules, but it's definitely on that fine-line of where is it considered OK and Not OK in that regard?
I mean, if I were to come up with a Third Party tool that let you take all of the Wurm Online assets and combine them into an image of sorts with some additional what-ever on it. That would be no different than the Deed Planner and still no different than what I was originally asking within this thread either.

Yet we're looking at Deed Planner as an extensionion of Wurm simply because you can export from in the game?
Or because it's so common place now?

I fail to understand what it is exactly about this third-party tool that makes it OK to market for in-game coin specifically when it isn't anything more than "outside game art" itself.
Who's to say the "art" proposed here wasn't a hand-drawn/painted deed plan too?

 

I want to know exactly what that line is and why there appears to be this grey-area of exception.

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29 minutes ago, Zera said:

I'm not saying that having someone offer Deed Planning services should be against said rules, but it's definitely on that fine-line of where is it considered OK and Not OK in that regard?
I mean, if I were to come up with a Third Party tool that let you take all of the Wurm Online assets and combine them into an image of sorts with some additional what-ever on it. That would be no different than the Deed Planner and still no different than what I was originally asking within this thread either.

 

It doesn't matter what it is..it matters what is received for a service.

 

If silver was earned it is OK (in line with Steam's TOS). If real world currency was earned, it is not (against Steam's TOS).

 

That's it. I don't see why there is grey area at all.

 

 

Edited by Opaveus

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8 minutes ago, Opaveus said:

 

It doesn't matter what it is..it matters what is received for a service.

 

If silver was earned it is OK (in line with Steam's TOS). If real world currency was earned, it is not (against Steam's TOS).

 

That's it. I don't see why there is grey area at all.

 

 

Then you are entirely missing the question of this thread was posted for.
This was absolutely nothing involved with Real World Currency at all.

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Well, while I disagree with Zera who tries to make a lawyer style point which is inappropriate in Wurm, I see her point a bit. There is indeed a line not to be crossed.

 

It is certainly against the ToS e.g. to let somebody paint your garden fence for ingame silver while it is perfectly ok to do the same with the ingame fence. So "paid with ingame silver" is not the whole story (Edit: It would be hard to prove if both parties keep tacit about, though, and the team has certainly better to do than to inquire).

 

Yet I disagree with too narrow definitions. Someone creating the heraldic design for a PMK may be "paid" in ingame silver, and delivering the results of the work in the formats of common graphics programs (dunno how the implementation in Wurm is done and is not the point here). Similarly, a high level miner and prospector may map and prospect a player's mine for silver, and deliver the research results in spreadsheet formats (.ods or .xslx). Those are certainly third party software, as are the browsers with which we are discussing in forums.

 

Deedplanner too, is just a tool to describe Wurm features, albeit a sophisticated one. It is definitely distinct from any off game stuff like e.g. Wurm Merchandise, 3D printer figures even if Wurm related (mind copyrights though).

Edited by Ekcin

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From the Wurm Online Game Agreement:

 

  • Purchase of silver coins is payment for a service provided by Code Club AB. Silver coins have no real world value.

 

If Silver coins have no real world value, then I am not bartering for anything. I am receiving a service for free.

Edited by Opaveus

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7 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

Well, while I disagree with Zera who tries to make a lawyer style point which is inappropriate in Wurm, I see her point a bit. There is indeed a line not to be crossed.

I'm just trying to understand why a certain format is OK for some things but not for others.
There doesn't appear to be a clear answer to this, other than "wurm assets" and "in-game" which can be taken in all kinds of different ways and argued in various different approaches.
So wanting a clarification of what it is exactly that says X is OK vs Y is Not, I don't feel is too much to ask.

In the case of Wurm and Steam it is always better to be 100% clear than to play around in a grey-area and take a risk that can otherwise lead to a ban without question.

So because of that, yes. I will make all the "lawyer style points" as you call them, to get clarity on what is and is not acceptable.

 

10 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

Someone creating the heraldic design for a PMK may be "paid" in ingame silver, and delivering the results of the work in the formats of common graphics programs

This is in some way identical to my originally proposed question.
Art of some form presented for us with and for wurm.

11 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

Similarly, a high level miner and prospector may map and prospect a player's mine for silver, and deliver the research results in spreadsheet formats

This however is entirely different, this is a task taken place directly in-game. How the results are portrayed is completely irrelevant.

With Deed Planner, everything is done out-of-game, from the moment the land is exported to the file sent back to the requesting player in exchange for Silvers for a File/Link that is presented outside of game.

 

14 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

as are the browsers with which we are discussing in forums.

Yes the browsers are third party, yes the Forums themselves are "Wurm" as stated in the ToS and Acceptance agreements.

The argument thus far from "Wurm" (Staffing) has been "in-game assets" or can be taken as "Used in-game/for game".
It's not the same as "I"ll paint your IRL fence for in-game silvers" as the IRL fence has 0 to do with Wurm itself.
That said this Deed Planner program "is of and for Wurm" which is what I've taken to be as the "For Wurm" argument here.


So yes, I get literal, technical and down to the ugly nitty gritty when I'm trying to make a point and make a point to understand exactly where a line is. Apologies if it's coming off "brash" or "forceful" but as I've said I want to know exactly where this line is.

If a Shop/Deed Banner, even using in-game images and items is considered a "out of game/not for wurm" feature than I would expect to see no repercussions for marketing such a service for IRL cash and no backlash for doing so. Whether these images were used on these forums or elsewhere as they are not "Wurm assets" they do not belong to Wurm and cannot in any way be tied directly to the game and therefore punishable as a Real World Trade.

Or art depicting an ingame character and their Deed or otherwise, be seen as "profiting from RWT from Wurm" in that regard either.

This "Grey Area" goes both ways here, both for In-Game Silver Trade and for RMT transactions.
I feel it needs to be made 100% clear, no questions asked clear on what is and isn't considered "In-Game" vs "Real World" here.

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6 minutes ago, Opaveus said:

From the Wurm Online Game Agreement:

 

  • Purchase of silver coins is payment for a service provided by Code Club AB. Silver coins have no real world value.

 

If Silver coins have no real world value, then I am not bartering for anything. I am receiving a service for free.

I have to say you've gone beyond my level of comprehension here and I've zero idea what you're even talking about at this point.

 

You go on to talk about in-game silvers and yet have seemed to completely skip over what this post is for/asking/discussing in the long run?

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So if I pay someone 10$ for a deed plan, out of game, no Wurm or Code Club assets involved so perfectly legal.

The other person then buys the deed plan from me for 10 silver  Legal because Retrogrades said so. No offense has occured.

 

 

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