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Tigerclaw

Northern Freedom Isles hotas and kingdom wagons.

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No you dont need an incentive to pvp. You PVP cause you want to kill and grief  people and rob thier crap. We play pve cause we like the sandbox element. Theres your incentive.

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Such rants do not lead to anything, neither immature "carebear" shaming attempts nor defaming PvP players as killers, griefers, and thieves. I play PvE because I am still exploring the depth of the game but do not rule out playing PvP some time in the future though it does not seem likely at the moment. I have played PvP in other games, and liked the strong social cohesion inside PvP factions and clans/guilds/whatever, the intricate knowledge of the combat systems by experienced players, and their willingness to share that knowledge.

 

Yes there are downsides in PvP, here as elsewhere, even dangers leading to a downward development of PvP as happened here and in many other games. There is ganking just for fun and deliberateness, and there is the danger that one faction wins the upper hand perpetually, eventually killing the game by the exodus of opponents tired to be defeated all time (there is a term for, just forgot). And there is the problem of toxicity of some players, even beyond ganking, and while this phenomenon does not exclusively exist in PvP the passion of fighting is encourageing it.

 

Problems should be named, and addressed where possible. Divisiveness between PvP and PvE players is inconstructive to say the least.

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On 9/6/2020 at 5:31 PM, GorgonKain said:

This one is new though so going to quickly address the side point: this thread is specifically for NFI stuff. You cannot transfer any item, wagon or otherwise, from Defiance to any PvE server on the cluster. There is no economical advantage here. 

 

I know you can't on NFI, but you can on SFI, and it is a good thing, at least people who chosen characters like I did - lawful good - can get these items, for absurd prices mostly but at least they are available. 

 

On 9/6/2020 at 5:31 PM, GorgonKain said:

You don't need to kill anyone necessarily to obtain a hota statue. You simply need to capture the pillars in the appropriate zone. This may even be done with limited to no resistance on Chaos with low population. As for the wagons, you can build any for the basic kingdoms simply by joining the default kingdoms while on Chaos and transferring it back. 

 

If you go to a PVP map you have to kill people. And some people, do follow RPG convention and don't want to go out of their characters, which I think again, is a good thing, we should encourage more RP in RPG. I am not speaking about people sitting and talking in a weird way. I do play RPG 30 years, and I never PVP. I should be able to get custom decorative items without the need of going out of my character (I am not telling I want them for free), and in Wurm they are available only for certain types of characters, all others have to buy them from PVPers. 

 

On 9/6/2020 at 5:31 PM, GorgonKain said:

Because the purpose of a PMK is not for cosmetics. It is to provide a series of roles and structures first and foremost. The system is intrinsically linked to those features. Before a PMK even applies for additional art resources, they default to the template kingdom the PMK was founded from. 

 

A lot of PMKs were made just to get fancy items in game and sell them, and players who made them not once spoke about it frankly. Not to mention a purpose of a kingdom shouldn't be just to fight with other kingdoms, they are also useful for less bloody endeavours. 

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13 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

Such rants do not lead to anything, neither immature "carebear" shaming attempts nor defaming PvP players as killers, griefers, and thieves. I play PvE because I am still exploring the depth of the game but do not rule out playing PvP some time in the future though it does not seem likely at the moment. I have played PvP in other games, and liked the strong social cohesion inside PvP factions and clans/guilds/whatever, the intricate knowledge of the combat systems by experienced players, and their willingness to share that knowledge.

 

Yes there are downsides in PvP, here as elsewhere, even dangers leading to a downward development of PvP as happened here and in many other games. There is ganking just for fun and deliberateness, and there is the danger that one faction wins the upper hand perpetually, eventually killing the game by the exodus of opponents tired to be defeated all time (there is a term for, just forgot). And there is the problem of toxicity of some players, even beyond ganking, and while this phenomenon does not exclusively exist in PvP the passion of fighting is encourageing it.

 

Problems should be named, and addressed where possible. Divisiveness between PvP and PvE players is inconstructive to say the least.

 

Yes for all those reasons PVP is fun there is no need to create artificial economies and incentive to cater to the smallest yet most vocal population of wurm. This only makes it more niche and less attractive to a broad audience.

Edited by Killroth
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Just now, Killroth said:

 

Yes for all those reasons PVP is fun there is no need to create artificial economies and incentive to cater to the smallest population of wurm. This only makes it more niche and less attractive to a broad audience.

 

This, this x1000.

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56 minutes ago, Platyna said:

I do play RPG 30 years, and I never PVP. I should be able to get custom decorative items without the need of going out of my character

If you're so familiar with RPGs, the idea of items being locked to characters shouldn't be a stranger to you. You should know that not every situation can simply be bought out of, choices you make with your character affect what that character can do in the long run. In this case, you choose to refrain from PvP which is fine, but because of this choice you don't get PvP exclusive items. You can't have it both ways.

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25 minutes ago, Sovos said:

If you're so familiar with RPGs, the idea of items being locked to characters shouldn't be a stranger to you. You should know that not every situation can simply be bought out of, choices you make with your character affect what that character can do in the long run. In this case, you choose to refrain from PvP which is fine, but because of this choice you don't get PvP exclusive items. You can't have it both ways.

 

It is not that items on pvp servers should be exclusive... thats totally fine and awesome.

 

This is about the fact that PVP people play for the $$$$ and loot and not the pvp experience...they shouldn't be able to peddle their wares on freedom unless we can form our own PVE kingdoms.

we have several alliances with 30+ villages and are very active.

 

The fact that we arent even considered giving the option of making our own banner/regalia due to our "Freedumb" play style is a slap in the face. 

 

Lets not even get started with the fact that our PVE equivelant of "Kingdoms" the only thing we have alliance is so roughed out as far as permissions/options that it was probabaly only glanced over for 5 mins upon creating the ability to form alliance. (there is only 2 options "kick village" and set motd)

Edited by Killroth
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all I hear is WAAAA I want to play on freedum but want all the pvp perks without the risk, freedom has already been given 99% of the things that used to be unique on pvp servers, you can manage with your freedom wagons IMO.

 

-200 IQ

Edited by Threap

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6 minutes ago, Killroth said:

It is not that items on pvp servers should be exclusive... thats totally fine and awesome.

 

This is about the fact that PVP people play for the $$$$ they shouldnt be able to peddle thier wares on freedom unless we can form our own pve kingdoms.

You made a pretty big jump from "Let's keep it separate" to "I want kingdoms". Kingdoms don't exist on Freedom, that's where the name comes from. Not to mention the vast majority of kingdom mechanics don't make sense in a setting where you can't do PvP actions, which would lead to more threads from confused people trying to figure out what does and doesn't work on each specific server.

 

The best way to avoid all of this is the way it works now: Want PvP stuff? Go to PvP. Want PvE stuff? Go to PvE. Want to do both? Use a portal, your PvE and PvP skills will transfer between servers but your items stay on the server they were made on.

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49 minutes ago, Sovos said:

If you're so familiar with RPGs, the idea of items being locked to characters shouldn't be a stranger to you. You should know that not every situation can simply be bought out of, choices you make with your character affect what that character can do in the long run. In this case, you choose to refrain from PvP which is fine, but because of this choice you don't get PvP exclusive items. You can't have it both ways.

 

It is not about being locked in character, it is about playing how we enjoy the most. I think no new player who made a char on PVE server in North ever though their customization options will be severely limited. PVE should have own custom wagons, flags etc. Why at least each server can't have it in addition to that scrambled-eggs-on-a-blue-plate standard FI wagons. Kingdom of Independence etc. would be fun. IRL even particular cities and voivodeships have their own flags and colours, because we have a natural desire to customize. It is would be okay if PVP and PVE had different items inaccessible otherwise than buying from the "other  party", but when customization is in fact only limited to a certain game play that most people see, to not enjoy (as we can see while looking on PVP and PVE servers population) this is weird, and in my opinion, wrong because it is a huge disproportion, especially in an economy where vast majority of bulk and crafted items are worth next to nothing. 

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58 minutes ago, Platyna said:

It is would be okay if PVP and PVE had different items inaccessible otherwise than buying from the "other  party"

Would it though? Whenever there's something on PvP, history shows that eventually someone on PvE wants it ported over solely because they want whatever it is without putting themselves at any risk. They want artifacts, they want kingdom towers, they want to lockpick, they want to steal, they want PMKs; the only thing that remains consistent is that they want all of these things but only if they are specifically tuned to their playstyle. Some of the things they've asked for previously have ended up ported over, which only leads to more complaints when it ends up not functioning correctly due to it being designed around PvP (See: Libila followers on PvE wanting spreadable mycelium versus non-followers shrieking at them).

 

1 hour ago, Platyna said:

most people see, to not enjoy (as we can see while looking on PVP and PVE servers population) this is weird, and in my opinion, wrong because it is a huge disproportion, especially in an economy where vast majority of bulk and crafted items are worth next to nothing. 

So in reality, it all comes down to "All of these items that everyone can infinitely create eventually end up worthless because there is zero threat of them being lost or destroyed". Instead of looking at the core problem of there not being an item sink to take things out of circulation, the solution you're saying is "We aren't making enough money, we need more items to pump the economy for a month until those items are worthless as well and we're right back where we started". 

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Aesthetic item customization is RP element and doesn't give any tactical or skill gain advantage. I see no reason why it should be associated with any "risk". AFAIR the artifacts are items giving the aforementioned advantages and therefore they are completely different thing. 

1 hour ago, Sovos said:

They want artifacts, they want kingdom towers, they want to lockpick, they want to steal, they want PMKs; the only thing that remains consistent is that they want all of these things but only if they are specifically tuned to their playstyle.

 

This is a generalization that, if followed, usually makes the discussion go South. No idea who wants e.g. stealing, for sure not me. We are talking about purely aesthetic customizations. Such as fancy wagon colours. Things like that make a game attractive and pleasant. No one said they should be for free or with little effort - this would be boring, but there should be other ways to creating and obtaining them than just go and kill people or pay 40s for a wagon, that has your favourite colours or be condemned to just one wagon style - this is four months worth of premium time. Not to mention that if we had e.g. Xanadu/Independence/Release voivodeship custom sets it would encourage people to travel and explore more, find new places to deed and new players to get along. 

Edited by Platyna

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1 hour ago, Platyna said:

but there should be other ways to creating and obtaining them than just go and kill people or pay 40s for a wagon

pmk wagons are all over chaos in abandonded deeds, you can go over and pick one and take it home with no pvp, if you're paying 40s for one thats on you

 

i've found every pmk wagon except AO and crow in the wild ;)

Edited by Oblivionnreaver

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So let's look a bit closer here...

 

Can I get one of these items through hard work on my own with no risk?  NO

 

Can I get one of these items without gambling assets/skills?  NO (you go to a PvP server you risk death and/or boat loss)

 

Do I have to partake in PvP to get one of these items?  YES (if you walk around a PvP world, you are a part of the PvP; the "prey" role)

 

Can I create my own without extensive PvP?  NO (The PvP community actively griefs anyone who makes a kingdom just for the banner)

 

Can we have our own variation on PvE that costs more to offset the risk?  NO (the argument made was it'd destroy the monopoly by dropping prices)

 

What about fixed design heraldry?  MAYBE (there was mixed opinion on this one, the naysayers primarily arguing monopoly)

 

The general feeling is that these objects are a slap in the face to anyone who does not want to partake in PvP.  More so, the reason these objects exist is not for prestige but for profit.

 

This is why people want to keep defiance separate from the rest of the new servers.  It's to stop this contention from arising.

 

It is also why we'll never see such things on PvE; because we're the second class citizens of wurm and we'd do well to remember our place.

 

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11 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

pmk wagons are all over chaos in abandonded deeds, you can go over and pick one and take it home with no pvp, if you're paying 40s for one thats on you

 

i've found every pmk wagon except AO and crow in the wild ;)

 

I have to steal them, and this is not what lawful good characters do. 

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54 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

This is why people want to keep defiance separate from the rest of the new servers.  It's to stop this contention from arising.

 

This goes both ways. The scale, drake, tomes, and large amounts of building materials bought by PvPers and brought to Chaos massively changes the flow of the game on our side as well. It is not a one way economy. How many PvPers do you think pay for full drake sets, or scraps gathered on PvE servers, where there is no risk in capturing and killing them? When RMT was an option, many exclusively PvE traders made hundreds of euro off of people looking to gain an edge in PvP. 

 

I have not seen a whole lot of complaining from the PvPers I interact with about non-transferable items because it upsets the balance of both sides of the world. 

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On 9/6/2020 at 3:05 PM, Platyna said:

I think he might to have some valid point here - we all love customization - I think we should have more customization option. For example why not make PMKs on PVE? It would be fun and a good money sink. I went into details in the dye thread - I don't understand artificially limiting aesthetic customization that gives 0 advantage in game. I fail to understand why black dye was removed and good suggestions how to fix it without complete nerf went on the dead ears, why colour runes require so expensive moon metal and are absurdly random, after like 50 runes made I got none even close to what I wanted, why we can't just dye wood of wagons? Why nice custom items are only on PVP, giving people who PVP enormous economical advantage, as they basically control the custom items market, not the crafters. Why you have to go out of your character and kill a lot of people to get a statue that can be lit? 

 

We may find this silly but science is pretty clear about it - we like fancy things - even if they are useless. First signs of any civilization are funeral rituals and ornamental items such as jewellery, it is so deeply rooted in us and if well played by the development team it could bring us a lot of joy and them a lot  of profit.  You don't have to look for examples too much - flag one are Counter Strike skins. 

 

Black dye wasn't removed - you can still make it with decent skill.  You just can't exploit to make loads without effort.

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2 hours ago, Platyna said:

 

I have to steal them, and this is not what lawful good characters do. 

 

wow, just wow.

 

the fact that the first week you were in Kodjees village you stole his armour, tools and other items and killed his chickens, that where in a coop speaks to me that your not interested in being lawful good, not to mention you have also done the same to other people, i see no reason why you cant go to Chaos and take part in the PvP if you want the wagons / banners etc.

 

With regards the idea, i agree there should be more ways to have custom designs but not on the same level as the pvp kingdoms, thats a perk for the pvp crowd and should stay that way imo

Edited by Badvoc

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5 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

Can I get one of these items through hard work on my own with no risk?  NO

Sure, I'll agree with that, there's always a risk no matter how minimal that risk is. You're more likely to die to a random animal or falling damage than an enemy unless you're deep in their territory.

 

5 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

Can I get one of these items without gambling assets/skills?  NO (you go to a PvP server you risk death and/or boat loss)

Technically correct, but unless you're building a wagon outside an enemy deed or in the water near an enemy deed I don't see how you're going to die and/or lose a boat.

 

5 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

Do I have to partake in PvP to get one of these items?  YES (if you walk around a PvP world, you are a part of the PvP; the "prey" role)

No, you don't. There are plenty of players that never leave their bases. Who do you think makes the weapons, armor, food, and materials that many of the fighters use? If you go walking around outside of your territory, then yes you're most likely going to get jumped but you need to be very deep in enemy territory for this to even be an issue.

 

5 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

Can I create my own without extensive PvP?  NO (The PvP community actively griefs anyone who makes a kingdom just for the banner)

PMKs are not liked for a majority of reasons. Making one specifically to get wagons without actually participating in PvP would likely get you flattened because you're taking land and potentially players from the other kingdoms. One group that was dead set on making a PMK from the start (Even though they aren't implemented on Defiance) was wiped off the map once their kingdom found out their intentions.

 

5 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

It is also why we'll never see such things on PvE; because we're the second class citizens of wurm and we'd do well to remember our place.

Comedy increased by 0.0058 to 12.7193

 

 

The big takeaway is this keeps circling around to profit and making money which is odd, especially since you can't even sell these items on NFI servers. Everything in PvE revolves around silver since it's the only real "endgame"; most players there assume that anything and everything they can't do can just be bought, and if you tell them that isn't the case they make threads like this.

 

 

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49 minutes ago, Sovos said:

The big takeaway is this keeps circling around to profit and making money which is odd, especially since you can't even sell these items on NFI servers. Everything in PvE revolves around silver since it's the only real "endgame"; most players there assume that anything and everything they can't do can just be bought, and if you tell them that isn't the case they make threads like this.

 

Yeah, this is actually quite an old debate...

 

If you dig through the threads where this has come up before you'll notice quite quickly that it's all about profit (openly admitted to etc).  You can't sell them on NFI but their sale in SFE has been a huge point of contention for years; some folks would rather not see NFI go the same way ;)

 

51 minutes ago, Sovos said:

PMKs are not liked for a majority of reasons. Making one specifically to get wagons without actually participating in PvP would likely get you flattened because you're taking land and potentially players from the other kingdoms. One group that was dead set on making a PMK from the start (Even though they aren't implemented on Defiance) was wiped off the map once their kingdom found out their intentions.

 

This one, in particular; there is actually a buried thread where someone made a PMK and every PvP kingdom decided they deserved to be griefed because they did so only to get their own gear design.  Literal and active griefing, beyond usual PvP for the sole purpose of punishing a player who dared infringe upon their monopoly.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Wonka said:

Black dye wasn't removed - you can still make it with decent skill.  You just can't exploit to make loads without effort.

 

I know from very high level dye makers that there is no skill to make it any more, even if some formula exist, there is no player (and Wurm exist 17 years) that can make it, so we can assume it was just removed.  And who is now making enormous money on RGB 1 1 1 black? Those who used the "unintended mechanics" to get even more rich - a barrel does not cost 4s any more, it costs 20-25...for a dye...to paint your ship with a nice colour...so it has a nice colour...no additional speed, elements resistance...nothing. I think this is the major issue with all the controversial changes made to the game recently - they gave people who used the feature/bug/mechanics/whatever even more advantage removing all the potential new competition. 

 

Apart from griefer (multiple support tickets) accusing me of stealing, there were some nice points raised by several people and I think they are worth consideration. To summarize my stance: 1. I am not saying nice customizations should be for free. 2. I am not saying we should be able to craft PVP PMK items. 3. I am saying we should have PVE nice custom items, one style of playing shouldn't have a monopoly of crafting custom items. 4. I am saying we should be able with some effort, to have vehicles, clothes, statues painted with a colour we want, it doesn't have to be easy, but paying 20s+ for a barrel of dye or pouring a river of absurdly expensive moon metals to make 30 runes and not getting even one close to desired colour, is way overboard. At least we should have a main colour option or an option to buy for marks. I do sympathize with NFI people who are basically condemned to yellow/blue/green theme. 

Edited by Platyna

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43 minutes ago, Platyna said:

I know from very high level dye makers that there is no skill to make it any more, even if some formula exist, there is no player (and Wurm exist 17 years) that can make it, so we can assume it was just removed.

Except the way it was done was adding 1,1,1 dye to existing dye and abusing the way dye averaging worked. This means you needed 1,1,1 dye to start with, which can still be made. It's just, you know, hard to make.

 

46 minutes ago, Platyna said:

4. I am saying we should be able with some effort, to have vehicles, clothes, statues painted with a colour we want

You can. Grind natural substances or pay someone who spent the time and effort doing it. Being able to buy colors with marks invalidates those people who put work in to get where they are, and this is literally you saying "I will pay for dye but I will only pay what I feel like it because I deserve it". If prices are at 20s for a barrel it's because people are paying that price, welcome to supply and demand.

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