[solved] Empty coffers

[Kelebeth 37]

We're now one and a half month in the existance of the harmony server, and we still can not sell items to our tokens. To those relying on premium time by selling their work that's going to be a problem. Two questions:

 

1. When are the coffers filled;

2. What can we do to speed it up.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Kelebeth

[Zera 175]

You can sell your work to other players, you don't need Coffers for that.

Even when Coffers do get coin, it drains quickly due to where it pays out and how many people in general there are in total. Selling to a Token for coin is extremely unreliable because of this.

 

Coffers are filled "roughly" on a monthly basis and you can't "Speed it up" because it takes a portion of the Deed Upkeep on the server itself every month or so. Server Restarts, down-time, etc; extend this time that it takes the coffers to fill.

 

So because the Coffers pay out in the following ways:

1. Foraged Coins
2. Burying Rewards
3. Slaying Rewards
4. Selling to a Token
5. MAYBE praying rewards also
6. Portion paid to Traders

The amount the Coffers has isn't a whole lot to begin with, then we'll add all the players who perform all of the above actions (and some I'm probably still missing), you can imagine how quickly the Coffers would drain.

I've received coins for doing some of the above actions, so that tells me that at some point there was coin in the coffers. I can't say whether there's a percentage set aside for each payout method or not, but I do know once the coffers are empty they're empty and there is no way to speed it up regaining coin in the meantime while we wait.

 

If you're relying on in-game coin to support a Deed or Premium time the only truly reliable method is to sell items to other players.
There's still many who are buying bulk items, dirt and hiring physical labor.

If you're expecting to be able to support your Deed and Premium time by solely selling to a Token it's just not going to be possible this way.

Edited September 6, 2020 by Zera

[Caduryn 129]

42 minutes ago, Zera said:

You can sell your work to other players, you don't need Coffers for that.

Even when Coffers do get coin, it drains quickly due to where it pays out and how many people in general there are in total. Selling to a Token for coin is extremely unreliable because of this.

 

Coffers are filled "roughly" on a monthly basis and you can't "Speed it up" because it takes a portion of the Deed Upkeep on the server itself every month or so. Server Restarts, down-time, etc; extend this time that it takes the coffers to fill.

 

So because the Coffers pay out in the following ways:

1. Foraged Coins
2. Burying Rewards
3. Slaying Rewards
4. Selling to a Token
5. MAYBE praying rewards also
6. Portion paid to Traders

The amount the Coffers has isn't a whole lot to begin with, then we'll add all the players who perform all of the above actions (and some I'm probably still missing), you can imagine how quickly the Coffers would drain.

I've received coins for doing some of the above actions, so that tells me that at some point there was coin in the coffers. I can't say whether there's a percentage set aside for each payout method or not, but I do know once the coffers are empty they're empty and there is no way to speed it up regaining coin in the meantime while we wait.

 

If you're relying on in-game coin to support a Deed or Premium time the only truly reliable method is to sell items to other players.
There's still many who are buying bulk items, dirt and hiring physical labor.

If you're expecting to be able to support your Deed and Premium time by solely selling to a Token it's just not going to be possible this way.

I dont believe you ever got Coins on Harmony for forage, bury, slaying selling at Token.....

 

Prayer doesnt count.

[Zera 175]

59 minutes ago, Caduryn said:

I dont believe you ever got Coins on Harmony for forage, bury, slaying selling at Token.....

 

Prayer doesnt count.

I did say I wasn't sure about Prayer, but I HAVE gotten coin from sources that weren't Praying. Can't recall which though.
I know it wasn't Selling to Token as I haven't bothered trying in a long time, even prior to the new cluster release.

Regardless, my pointing out that relying on selling to a said token as only/main source of income wasn't a reliable method whether or not the coffers had coins or not. Was also my main big point for responding in the first place.

No one said you had to "believe me" anyway, what happened, happened. Whether you believe it or not doesn't change a thing.

Edited September 6, 2020 by Zera

[Damascus 365]

So far you can get coin from praying thats it..

Foarge, killing and bury rare rolls are giving nothing ...

 

[Kelebeth 37]

I try almost every day to sell at the token, no single day the token accepted a sale. Foraging coins are connected to the same pool, and I haven't gotten a single coin from foraging either. Coins from praying does work, but praying for coins is a mechanic that has been in the game for much longer.

 

Selling items to feed tokens was once actually introduced when wurm went f2p, and this was seen as a good way to pay for your deed for example. It has always served me well. Enough to pay for deed upkeep, and some change to keep in the pocket. I would argue it's the most reliable way to earn coin, actually, and I have years of experience using this method to back it up.

[Kelebeth 37]

Anyway, I am not here to argue the mechanic, those who spend the time to use this mechanic in the past just like to know why it hasn't worked yet. It was asked when the harmony server opened up, and the CA's replied that the coffers are filled, but it takes about a week for it to sync.

I waited a week, then a month, and longer. Perhaps something is broken.

 

[Zera 175]

1 hour ago, Kelebeth said:

I try almost every day to sell at the token, no single day the token accepted a sale. Foraging coins are connected to the same pool, and I haven't gotten a single coin from foraging either. Coins from praying does work, but praying for coins is a mechanic that has been in the game for much longer.

 

Selling items to feed tokens was once actually introduced when wurm went f2p, and this was seen as a good way to pay for your deed for example. It has always served me well. Enough to pay for deed upkeep, and some change to keep in the pocket. I would argue it's the most reliable way to earn coin, actually, and I have years of experience using this method to back it up.

That's great and all but when every player online is using this method it's slim pickings to rely solely on it to fund your Deed and your Premium time.

And with the Steam release we're finding more players now than in the past who remain F2P and look to this method alone to fund both.

Edited September 6, 2020 by Zera

[Zera 175]

1 hour ago, Kelebeth said:

Anyway, I am not here to argue the mechanic, those who spend the time to use this mechanic in the past just like to know why it hasn't worked yet. It was asked when the harmony server opened up, and the CA's replied that the coffers are filled, but it takes about a week for it to sync.

I waited a week, then a month, and longer. Perhaps something is broken.

 

I hate to break it to you, but CA's are no more than a Player with access to directly message higher-ups. CA's don't exactly get anymore insight into things than we do.

[Ekcin 2,404]

43 minutes ago, Zera said:

That's great and all but when every player online is using this method it's slim pickings to rely solely on it to fund your Deed and your Premium time.
And with the Steam release we're finding more players now than in the past who remain F2P and look to this method alone to fund both.

You are missing the point . It is well possible that, once the mechanism is working, the gains from it for the individual players will be considerably lower than on less populated servers with a large share of veterans who usually don't bother to sell to the deed token, and most of them not foraging or botanizing regularly. There will be more often "no coins in the coffers" messages, and less MOI grants from hunting, burying etc. than on the old servers.

 

That is not the point. As devs and GM - not just a single CA - explained im past discussions, the king's coffers are filled by some fraction of silver reflux to the server sinks such as deed founding and upkeep, premium time bought on the token, contracts etc. If these funds are overused the coffers will fall dry (in addition, there seems to be some kind of coin ageing in these funds, at least a credible hypothesis corroborated by observations exists).

 

Such a mechanism is sensible as it keeps the economy afloat, and enables actors unable or unwilling to engage in production and sale of tradable goods or services to participate in the economy to some extent. But that mechanism is not working at all in NFI, and that is the topic of this thread.

 

In fact, there are not only many players who may suck the coffers dry as soon as the mechanism is working. There are also more payments available filling these funds. The number of mob and anymal kills, and burials in consequence, depends on killable and dying creatures, thus is not significantly higher on the new servers. And the number of deeds founded and paying upkeep is rather higher than on the old servers so that some funds should be available. Coffer refill occurs with incoming payments, I could observe that repeatedly, not on monthly, rather on hourly basis, possibly even shorter (I do not expect the devs to reveal the intricacies of this mechanism which may be subject to fine tuning depending on ingame economy parameters visible to them).

 

In summary, the threadstarter's question is well justified. And it would be good to receive an answer.

Edited September 6, 2020 by Ekcin

[atazs 962]

Im sorry but you are a fool if you think that selling stuff to your token and/or foraging will net you enough coin to buy premium in any reasonable timespan on the new servers.

Maybe on some low populated server.

 

Also Retrogarde have said they are looking into this and it is highly likely to be bugged at the moment.

Edited September 7, 2020 by atazs

[Kelebeth 37]

I don't THINK, I DO. Thank you very much. I would appreciate it if you keep insults to yourself.

[Ekcin 2,404]

While I disagree with the tone of your message (calling someone a fool is not overly polite) it is certainly true that constant premium on earnings from the coffers is neither intended nor likely to be possible. Yet I can say that I bought my first month of premium (ok 2s at that time) from earnings which mainly came from that income source, a smaller part from selling rares on the market.

 

What is, and should be possible, is paying the upkeep for a small or lower medium sized deed, at least to a major extent. Alternatively, it could help players with lower income to get some money to participate in the market, e.g. buying some better ql and/or enchanted equipment. 

 

That means that the redistribution of a share of the ingame silver circulation over these channels is definitely making sense, and is motivating new players. And if a bug is the cause for that mechanism not being working, it should be repaired soon.

[Oblivionnreaver 5,174]

coffers are always gonna look "broken" for a server with active players when you compare to old servers, you only really got payouts on servers where there was 10x more deeds than players on at any given time, and most of those players were just sitting at deed or alts, compared to new servers where there's hundreds of players foraging for farming mats, out hunting to grind skills, all that stuff. not to mention that a much lower % of the population is gonna be buying prem with silver which adds to the pool.

 

people are getting silver from it from what i've heard talking to people in alliance, it's just when silver is added to the pool it's gonna get cleaned out really fast due to all the active players

[Zera 175]

15 hours ago, Ekcin said:

You are missing the point . It is well possible that, once the mechanism is working, the gains from it for the individual players will be considerably lower than on less populated servers with a large share of veterans who usually don't bother to sell to the deed token, and most of them not foraging or botanizing regularly. There will be more often "no coins in the coffers" messages, and less MOI grants from hunting, burying etc. than on the old servers.

I'm not missing any point, this is exactly what I've been saying from the start.
Less "pay-back" then on less populated servers, because more pay-out opportunities as more players look to using the method for themselves.

15 hours ago, Ekcin said:

That is not the point. As devs and GM - not just a single CA - explained im past discussions, the king's coffers are filled by some fraction of silver reflux to the server sinks such as deed founding and upkeep, premium time bought on the token, contracts etc. If these funds are overused the coffers will fall dry (in addition, there seems to be some kind of coin ageing in these funds, at least a credible hypothesis corroborated by observations exists).

Again, also what I've already said. Coffers are filled by Deed Funds/Upkeep, more players looking to fund their own Deeds AND their Premium time means more drain on it. Meaning it will run dry faster and will appear more "Empty" than on the old clusters.

Add to that the older players who know how all of this works will truly work these methods to be awarded that payout regularly and quickly once available.

15 hours ago, Ekcin said:

Such a mechanism is sensible as it keeps the economy afloat, and enables actors unable or unwilling to engage in production and sale of tradable goods or services to participate in the economy to some extent. But that mechanism is not working at all in NFI, and that is the topic of this thread.

I'm not saying it's a bad system..
All I'm saying is it's silly to rely solely on this method on NFI to pay completely for a Deed or Premium time.
Just because some players haven't seen the Coffers available for payouts doesn't exactly mean it's Broken either, purely because of all of the points made above.

15 hours ago, Ekcin said:

In fact, there are not only many players who may suck the coffers dry as soon as the mechanism is working. There are also more payments available filling these funds. The number of mob and anymal kills, and burials in consequence, depends on killable and dying creatures, thus is not significantly higher on the new servers. And the number of deeds founded and paying upkeep is rather higher than on the old servers so that some funds should be available. Coffer refill occurs with incoming payments, I could observe that repeatedly, not on monthly, rather on hourly basis, possibly even shorter (I do not expect the devs to reveal the intricacies of this mechanism which may be subject to fine tuning depending on ingame economy parameters visible to them).

Based on what we know of Wurm Unlimited, it is a monthly occurrence not a continual "Coffer Restock", so unless the coding has changed on Wurm Online for the King's Coffers this is how it is coded into the game.
I highly doubt that this was something they felt the need to change for Online since they stopped updating Unlimited.

I disagree that killing and burying is not significantly higher on the new servers. You have players looking to grind out their fighting skills and this is the only way to do so after you've beaten a Training Dummy into the ground.
Number of Deeds may be higher, but how many of those Deeds are Large Deeds vs Small Deeds? We must remember that only a percentage of Upkeep is returned to the Coffers (as is with any coin spent via Server) and not the entire amount.

As an example: If a Deed's upkeep is left at the 1 Silver maximum it could very well only be sending a few iron into the Coffers. This is information we just don't know and I certainly don't expect to get information on what that percentage really is.

 

35 minutes ago, Kelebeth said:

I don't THINK, I DO. Thank you very much. I would appreciate it if you keep insults to yourself.

We also have to keep in mind that "in the past" was a whole different environment entirely. So what could be done in the past is going to function very differently now and will be that way for quite some time until the New Servers age to resemble a much more mature economy, both Player and Server wise too.

 

[Ekcin 2,404]

You seem to miss that the devs via Retrograde already admitted that the coffers' system is not working at the moment. So all hypotheses about how it would work on NFI are speculative. And everyone I got in contact with from NFI is confirming not having experienced nor heard about any coins from MOI, hunting, foraging, whatever, not only from the tokens. I have experienced several "no coins in the coffers" situations, but always then there was still, maybe somewhat less, coin distribution over hunting, foraging etc.

 

56 minutes ago, Zera said:

Less "pay-back" then on less populated servers, because more pay-out opportunities as more players look to using the method for themselves.

 

This would be the case if there were any gain from such opportunities on the new servers, but that does not seem to be the case. And only then the many players playing Wurm the first time would actively go out e.g. foraging and botanizing in expectation of payouts, not just collecting some of the foraged items (usually littering and leaving behing most of it).

 

 

Quote

Again, also what I've already said. Coffers are filled by Deed Funds/Upkeep, more players looking to fund their own Deeds AND their Premium time means more drain on it. Meaning it will run dry faster and will appear more "Empty" than on the old clusters.

 

This would be a credible mechanism in case payouts from the coffers would work.

 

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All I'm saying is it's silly to rely solely on this method on NFI to pay completely for a Deed or Premium time.

 

Agreed that this would most probably be unrealistic.

 

 

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Just because some players haven't seen the Coffers available for payouts doesn't exactly mean it's Broken either, purely because of all of the points made above.

 

Retrograde confirmed that not long ago.

 

 

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Based on what we know of Wurm Unlimited, it is a monthly occurrence not a continual "Coffer Restock", so unless the coding has changed on Wurm Online for the King's Coffers this is how it is coded into the game.

I highly doubt that this was something they felt the need to change for Online since they stopped updating Unlimited.

 

I cannot tell anything about WU, but a lot about WO. And I have habitually sold especially excess stuff from foraging/botanizing, also corpses to the token from start on, and have not completely given up that habit. I experienced weeks long "no coins in coffers" situations on Xanadu around new year 17/18 and 18/19, and a shorter one around same time 19/20, yet on somewhat shifting dates and for different durance so not  corroborating a hard month deadline. In summer and autumn in all those years, I sometimes observed such messages in the morning, most times over in late evening or around midnight (CET/CEST). And that was happening several days during the same month. That clearly contradicts a coffer refill solely on monthly base. There may be such a mechanism, but certainly not the only one. And I never observed MOI payouts being gone. Btw. most of that occured before they stopped updating WU.

 

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I disagree that killing and burying is not significantly higher on the new servers. You have players looking to grind out their fighting skills and this is the only way to do so after you've beaten a Training Dummy into the ground.

 

There were and are thousands of players struggling to kill a wolf (if they find one), or at least a bear, and running from trolls and scorps for weeks. And they have to care to build, to mine, to dig, to craft. And I watched a lot of streams of new Wurmians. Not few of them score less than a kill per RL day playing. And it will take time until they can go after every mob like we do.

 

I am a lazy hunter, rarely going out to kill as I prefer mining and crafting. Nevertheless my statistics reveal that I killed over 18 creatures every RL day since I started playing Wurm (93% of 20000 kills of the journal goal in 1001 days since I first logged in). I am sure that this is a low figure compared to others.

 

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Number of Deeds may be higher, but how many of those Deeds are Large Deeds vs Small Deeds? We must remember that only a percentage of Upkeep is returned to the Coffers (as is with any coin spent via Server) and not the entire amount.

 

There seem to be a not very small number of "city sized" settlements. And I spoke to players, and observed e.g. their streams who rarely if ever created minimum sized deeds. 

 

I agree and already wrote that we do not know the amount of redistributed ingame money, and probably never will as this is a means for the devs and GM to steer the ingame economy. I doubt that only irons from a silver spent will go to the coffers, but of course I don't, and won't know.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Ekcin

[Zera 175]

I'm not surprised the Coffers/Economy is having hiccups on the NFI.
All servers use the same login server for characters, and it's the login server that handles economy business too.
They had to have done some changes behind the scenes to make the login server handle two separate economies the way it does and as a result broke something for the NFI somewhere if that's the case.

 

In the end though, expecting to be able to rely on Coffers to fund game-play as a whole is still a questionable expectation given the state of the NFI cluster no matter how you look at it. Working Coffers or not.

So yes while it'd be nice to know when it'll be functional it's still in an individuals best interest to either substitute with IRL money to coin payments or participate in the Server Economy as well as the Coffers themselves (when there is Coffers to be had).

The Economy (both coin and player) is much more than what was on SFI and as a result there will be less Coin to go to each individual as each pay-out method will be spread out among far more users/players than on SFI in comparison.

Even if we look at "More Deeds" that still equals "More Players" which means "More Individual Payouts".

[Ogare 74]

If you question the posters here trying to downplay kings coffer money your not alone. Keep in mind it's first come first serve, which means the more you do kings coffer tasks, the larger your share of the money will be. Lastly, I know for a fact it's possible to pay premium with this just. A tip is that you can use F2P alts to get more. Anyway, happy forage and botany time to you coffer seekers

[Retrograde 12,013]

Indeed, it is a known issue! 

 

There's a lot of speculation of the cause and the impact but I can say it's not a deliberate change, and is likely to do with the system being in place at a server launch (as it wasn't in place with the launch of Xanadu as far as I recall). We will address it asap so rare coins can be found!

 

For the record, amount in the coffers bears no impact on chances of getting something,  it's a flat roll. 

[Kelebeth 37]

Awesome, thanks a lot for the info. I hope it will be an easy fix.

[Caduryn 129]

Any News?

 

 

[azuleslight 87]

On 9/7/2020 at 8:49 PM, Retrograde said:

Indeed, it is a known issue! 

 

There's a lot of speculation of the cause and the impact but I can say it's not a deliberate change, and is likely to do with the system being in place at a server launch (as it wasn't in place with the launch of Xanadu as far as I recall). We will address it asap so rare coins can be found!

 

For the record, amount in the coffers bears no impact on chances of getting something,  it's a flat roll. 

 Known issue with no fix going on 2 months, i gotta call B.S., I have heard that you guys tied all the servers together for 1 large pool of coins(to make it easier for you) and it either A) messed up all the coffers on every server when you tied them together. Or B.) You are again choosing to wait until all 3 servers have been around for 1 month to release the funds. At this point the "known issue" is getting zero attention...I really hope this isn't a dry run to remove this feature entirely on the sly. because if it is, I won't be playing WO again.

[Retrograde 12,013]

17 hours ago, azuleslight said:

 Known issue with no fix going on 2 months, i gotta call B.S., I have heard that you guys tied all the servers together for 1 large pool of coins(to make it easier for you) and it either A) messed up all the coffers on every server when you tied them together. Or B.) You are again choosing to wait until all 3 servers have been around for 1 month to release the funds. At this point the "known issue" is getting zero attention...I really hope this isn't a dry run to remove this feature entirely on the sly. because if it is, I won't be playing WO again.

You have heard incorrectly. 

 

This is not a dry run to remove this feature. 

[Russwoods 75]

My goodness really people are fighting about getting penny's I mean coins from the token or rare coin. To support your game time or deed. When I mean I am a old player from deli. And have a deed on Melody. And the over inflated price of in games items. People should be millionaires by now. Why count on coins from the to token. Lol got a wild horse sell it for 2s .you got a small deed that covers a month or so. Just saw in want to sell section 100 support beam 10s I mean really. I will give the honest price 4s. And if you are a fair and honest merchant you will never have a problem buying your premium time or deed upkeep

[Kelebeth 37]

Bugfix: King’s coffers on Northern Freedom Isles should again function properly (and give out rare coins during foraging and other actions)

 

About an hour after server restart:

[16:50:02] There are apparently no coins in the coffers at the moment.

 

Doesn't look like it was fixed.