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In short, players are heavily rewarded for playing on PvE servers, whilst a lot of people feel there is little reason to play on Defiance unless there is an active PvP engagement occurring. This is super unhealthy for the PvP community, and if changes aren’t made, the population on Defiance will eventually die.

 

Some of the reasons people frequently choose to play on Freedom rather than Defiance include:

  • More frequent rites, and therefore more sleep bonus. There are a lot more rite casts on Freedom than on Defiance due to the higher population and more concentrated number of Vynora priests.
  • Risk free crafting.
  • Risk free hunting.
  • Items you make can be sold for silver, whereas on Defiance people are more likely to provide items for free.
  • Ease of crossing between Defiance and Freedom. Instead of the Chaos/Freedom isles relationship; where you must sail between servers (which is a risk in itself), portals currently allow you to cross at a moment’s notice in order to respond to PvP.
  • The Path of Knowledge level 11 ability which grants 25% bonus skill gain. This is unattainable on Defiance.

 

Essentially, playing on Freedom just makes a lot of sense for the individual, but if everyone does the same, this has a negative impact on the PvP community.

 

Usually high difficulty is rewarded in Wurm, as it should be, which is why I suggest adding incentives to play on PvP rather than removing features from Freedom:

  • Hunting should ALWAYS be good on PvP. Right now it is terrible, particularly in the south. Spawns should be crazy high. Starter zones could be spared so new players don’t get overwhelmed.
  • Rites could have halved requirements on PvP, and scale with number of active priests in that religion. (Or a timed cooldown, half requirements on PvP might still mean more casts on Freedom).
  • Looting battle camps could give 1 hr sleep bonus to all in local.
  • Valrei missions: If the Defiance server rewards are as the same on Freedom it’d make no sense, as there’s no risk to completing Valrei missions on Freedom. On Defiance, these missions should be more frequent, they should encourage going into enemy lands, and they should give lots of sleep bonus and other rewards for all participants. (My suggestion is keep Valrei missions the same as they currently are on Freedom, but buff the rewards on PvP. Note that this DOES NOT mean adding moon metals or similar to the PvP Valrei rewards.)
  • Exclusive skins that can only be acquired on the PvP server. These could be gained through Valrei missions, HoTA rewards, or maybe as rewards for having high battle rank. These skins could be transferable to the Freedom servers to allow people to show off their pvp-gotten-gains.
  • Some sort of penalty to using a PvP portal, a timed CR nerf or similar.
  • Increased skill gain? Nothing as drastic as Epic, but instead a 10% bonus to all skillgain.

 

These are just some ideas thrown out there as examples, as there are plenty of other ways to increase incentive. Feel free to add more suggestions, like, comment, subscribe, etc.

 

It should also be noted that this thread links up with this one here: 

 

Edited by BrokenSanity
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Unless the following two things change it will always be optimal to grind skils on pve server, regardless of what other perks you get on pvp.

 

1. Being a priest in pvp makes you significantly stronger in all pvp engagements, +CR + damage passives alone are enough to justify it, then add spells. But you cant grind body stats easily as a priest, because you cant Improve anything so you are stuck with Mining/digging as the best way.

2. On Pve you can still get level 11 Meditation for + skill gain including body stats. Where you cant on pvp.

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I think the pvp server should be connected to the pve ones so there is an actual market on the pvp servers. Since skills cross I think items should too. It would balance out the pvp server a lot too because if a kingdom is lacking in a certain area like weapon smithing, they could pay a pve player to provide them weapons. This could also incentivize pve players coming over and giving pvp a shot if they could bring their gear. Early on in the pvp server someone made a rare forge and struggled to sell it for anything. At around the same time I sold a rare forge on harmony for 25s instantly. Because of stuff like this it doesn’t make sense to grind on pvp because nothing has value.

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31 minutes ago, JamesSnow said:

I think the pvp server should be connected to the pve ones so there is an actual market on the pvp servers. Since skills cross I think items should too. It would balance out the pvp server a lot too because if a kingdom is lacking in a certain area like weapon smithing, they could pay a pve player to provide them weapons. This could also incentivize pve players coming over and giving pvp a shot if they could bring their gear. Early on in the pvp server someone made a rare forge and struggled to sell it for anything. At around the same time I sold a rare forge on harmony for 25s instantly. Because of stuff like this it doesn’t make sense to grind on pvp because nothing has value.

People are reluctant to pay for something that might get destroyed by others. That's not news or revolutionary in any sense. A PvP'er who spends 25s for a rare forge on the PvE server is probably not going to take it to the PvP server, even if they could. 

 

I was under the impression that skills did not cross over to the PvP servers, specifically so that people couldn't level in relative peace on PvE before jumping over to PvP (and/or benefit from faster skill gain on PvP, to come over and craft for buxx on PvE). If that's not the case, and people CAN bring PvE skills over to PvP, well... 😉

 

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U got it backwards, I’m not saying a pvp player would buy the forge. I’m saying if a pvp player is grinding masonry and makes a rare forge on the pvp server, then they could sell it to someone on the pve server. And skills do cross so idk what ur talking about 

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6 hours ago, BrokenSanity said:

Some sort of penalty to using a PvP portal, a timed CR nerf or similar.

 

Most people generally don't view a penalty/nerf as an "incentive"

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So this is basically about PvP-players jumping in and out of Defiance based on wether anything is currently happening?

Would a cooldown on using the portal (without any debuffs thereafter) help that? Is there one, and it should just be higher? It just sounds like people are not properly committing to playing on either server, and a couple of days of cooldown on using the PvP/PvE portal should solve that just fine if that' your goal. (Not that I agree with it neccessarily, but it seems like the most direct and effective approach)

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Sounds like a good way to stop people playing on pvp at all, you want to encourage them to come not put them off

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Not saying it has to be a 2-way cooldown...of course people who just want to try it out shouldn't be stuck on there for longer than they want.

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you guys are going at it the wrong way...

 

apart from the money making, the only reason pvpers are skilling on freedom instead of pvp atm is that you can grind your body stats waaaaaay more efficiently while grinding channeling on pvp

easy solution?

 

scenario 1: remove priest restrictions on pvp

scenario 2: remove priests on pvp

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I really enjoy losing HOURS of FS grind by dying to a zerg if I decide to go out and have fun solo instead of only coming out when it is confirmed my zerg will win.

And this is only hours of grinding because you can ride around all day and can't find a single mob

But mob spawns are fixed! Look at this graph of a completely stable creature count!

 

FIX THE MOB SPAWNS HOLY ######

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Would be grateful for any added content that attempts to incentivize PVP, especially considering all the hours you easily put into trying to find it with no luck.

 

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I think with everyone roughly being the same makes wanting to go out looking for someone have less attraction.

 

Remove/(reduce priest penalties) or add situational and multifaceted single use spells, these spells require components to make and the ending ql is the power. they require at least a normal staff equipped to apply (add like a special box where you can put items in and depending on the assortment of items it give you an item. you need multiple items to combine in the end to create the spell. (these would be single use spells, on a light wt paper (0.5WT) ; Power=QL).

Mini unique-like random spawns require about 4-10 70+fs accounts. special loot table with repairable, but not improvable items. (saccable)

Lesser unchargable artifacts that give event message 100% of the time while passing over the tile, that go back in the ground 48 hours after butchered to get people out looking/roaming.

No champion pets

pop tabs at 21 body control - if you can ride a horse, you can drop an affinity/pop death tabs.

no deeds and reduced skill gain buff on start islands, these should be used to learn and improve basics skills, and introduce yourself to the kingdom. safe but not home, they are called starter islands for a reason.

personal daily quests to kill enemy kingdom animals/tower guards that give like yellow potions, 1 use spells but can give rares, supremes etc. 

 

The main thing is you should be able to gain skill faster in lands where other players can kill you. don't nerf on deed skilling but promote off deed skilling.

If you can't get a bonus for killing people off deed, you really need one for killing people on deed.

 

Edited by Nosilverguy

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Another thing I was thinking that might promote fighting, roaming, hunting, exploration, etc would be a random roll after each creature kill to have it drop an item.

 

example:

unicorn dies-roll1(raredrop)-roll2(rareity)-roll3(item)-roll4(ql)

rare drop roll: 1-95 = no item, 96-100 = item

rareity roll:  rare is 1-700, supreme 701-990, and 991-1000 for fantastic

item: each loot table item would be given a number 1-XX

quality: 1-100 roll

 

say small anvil loot table item number is 17

 

ex1: Unicorn dies- rolls 97, rolls 594, rolls, 17, rolls 86 = Rare 86 ql small anvil

ex2: Unicorn dies - rolls 99, rolls 803, rolls 17, rolls 4 = Supreme 4ql small anvil

ex3: Unicorn dies - rolls 100, rolls 1000, rolls 17, rolls 100 = Fantastic 100ql small anvil

 

these numbers are just an example and subject to change.

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+1 on more incentives. If things continue like this before too long we'll have entire deeds playing on Freedom again and only crossing over if they're being sieged much like how it was on Epic.

 

On 9/2/2020 at 6:13 AM, SmeJack said:

Sounds like a good way to stop people playing on pvp at all, you want to encourage them to come not put them off

Perhaps, yeah, penalties might not be the solution, but incentives could be, as is part of the topic title even. What do you think could be a good incentive Sme? Enlighten us. I have trouble believing you don't see the drain of people moving to PvE as a problem for PvP.

 

IMHO, hunting should definitely be on the top of that list, PvP is all about risk so higher mob rates are not gonna hurt anyone, and might persuade some PvErs who want to grind wep skill or butchering.

I also particularly like the slightly higher skillgain solution. Epic at its prime had a lot of PvErs playing, which Defiance can also have really. There's the starter zones and even outside of them you can play in relative peace if you don't build on the frontlines and use some simple common sense like not going AFK off-deed and not bringing unrelated tools if you are off-deed.

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I don't have answers and I wont claim or pretend to, all I know is that punishing people and penalising them for one play style or another is never the solution.

Edited by SmeJack

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You shouldnt be playing PVP to make money. If you dont like that then make money on pve. We dont want to start this wagon/banner sales BullSh*t again.

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TLDR:  If you couldn't cross back and forth, your pvp character would actually have to "live" there, which would mean you have to be there to skill, which would in turn mean more pvpers on the pvp server at any given time. More people and therefore more pvp on a pvp server would, in and of itself, be an incentive for anyone who wants pvp I would think.

 

Well, I don't play pvp in Wurm and likely never will because many things about Wurm pvp are.....well, just unappealing to me.  (and so maybe my opinion on this is irrelevant). Nuff said on that. But there is one thing I've always thought was a big contributor to the pvp servers always ending up empty eventually.  That's this whole thing about crossing back and forth. Seems to me it's a downward spiraling, cause & effect, self defeating system.  Don't get me wrong, it's a nice idea that you can play both with the same character and play with your pve friends and vice verse, but it never seems to work out the way it's envisioned. I just have to wonder if that isn't a big contributor.  In most games I've played that have separate pvp servers, you have to have a pvp character that only plays on that server. You have a pvp character that is always a pvp character and "lives" in that community, with all that entails.  In a game like Wurm, where the pvp is dependent on things like community building things together, fortifying, raiding, full loot, etc, etc, etc, being able to go play "elsewhere" for your character building and crafting and resource gathering, etc., just seems to go against everything that's supposed to be happening there.  I just fail to see how pvp can happen regularly when a large portion of the population is busy skilling on the pve servers.  And no matter what you do, adding "incentives" won't work in my opinion because people are still going to do their skilling, resource gathering, armor/weapon making, enchanting, etc, where it's "safe."  ie: on the pve servers.  So nobody's home, so no pvp happening, so go skill some more on pve, so nobody's home. The ol' proverbial "vicious circle."   (yes I know that it's different with the new steam servers but seems people are still ending up on pve for whatever reasons)

 

I don't know if I'm making any sense here, lol. It's early and I need more coffee. It's just something I've always thought about Wurm pvp. I think the two should be separate. Have a pvp character if you want one, and a separate pve character if you want one. This way, if you want to play pvp, you will have to actually spend your time there to build your character, your pvp character would have to "live" there, which as a consequence will mean population will be higher and I would think that pvp would happen more.  Seems like a no brainer to me but since I don't pvp in Wurm I'm sure there's probably something I'm missing here.

Edited by Amadee
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2 hours ago, Killroth said:

You shouldnt be playing PVP to make money. If you dont like that then make money on pve. We dont want to start this wagon/banner sales BullSh*t again.

Uhm. I'm not sure if you even bothered to read the post, this is completely unrelated to the topic. We're saying that PvP needs more incentives to keep people there instead of making it objectively more efficient to play on freedom and cross over to PvP. We're not asking for PvP and PvE economies to be linked (god no), we're not asking for easy money on PvP.  We're asking to give people incentives to play there. Right now, if I wanted to minmax the hell out of things (which quite a few PvPers like to do), I'd play on PvE as a vyn follower with Path of Knowledge, grind all my skills up there, and only cross over to PvP for meditation/prayer/lockpicking timers.

 

1 hour ago, Amadee said:

TLDR:  If you couldn't cross back and forth, your pvp character would actually have to "live" there, which would mean you have to be there to skill, which would in turn mean more pvpers on the pvp server at any given time. More people and therefore more pvp on a pvp server would, in and of itself, be an incentive for anyone who wants pvp I would think.

 

Well, I don't play pvp in Wurm and likely never will because many things about Wurm pvp are.....well, just unappealing to me.  (and so maybe my opinion on this is irrelevant). Nuff said on that. But there is one thing I've always thought was a big contributor to the pvp servers always ending up empty eventually.  That's this whole thing about crossing back and forth. Seems to me it's a downward spiraling, cause & effect, self defeating system.  Don't get me wrong, it's a nice idea that you can play both with the same character and play with your pve friends and vice verse, but it never seems to work out the way it's envisioned. I just have to wonder if that isn't a big contributor.  In most games I've played that have separate pvp servers, you have to have a pvp character that only plays on that server. You have a pvp character that is always a pvp character and "lives" in that community, with all that entails.  In a game like Wurm, where the pvp is dependent on things like community building things together, fortifying, raiding, full loot, etc, etc, etc, being able to go play "elsewhere" for your character building and crafting and resource gathering, etc., just seems to go against everything that's supposed to be happening there.  I just fail to see how pvp can happen regularly when a large portion of the population is busy skilling on the pve servers.  And no matter what you do, adding "incentives" won't work in my opinion because people are still going to do their skilling, resource gathering, armor/weapon making, enchanting, etc, where it's "safe."  ie: on the pve servers.  So nobody's home, so no pvp happening, so go skill some more on pve, so nobody's home. The ol' proverbial "vicious circle."   (yes I know that it's different with the new steam servers but seems people are still ending up on pve for whatever reasons)

 

I don't know if I'm making any sense here, lol. It's early and I need more coffee. It's just something I've always thought about Wurm pvp. I think the two should be separate. Have a pvp character if you want one, and a separate pve character if you want one. This way, if you want to play pvp, you will have to actually spend your time there to build your character, your pvp character would have to "live" there, which as a consequence will mean population will be higher and I would think that pvp would happen more.  Seems like a no brainer to me but since I don't pvp in Wurm I'm sure there's probably something I'm missing here.

Yes, exactly this! The crossing between servers removed almost all reasons for people to be on PvP servers with any persistence. This exact thing is what killed the Epic population.

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I think a huge issue here is allowing priests to transfer to pve and suffer no downsides on the pvp side. Been struggling with this personally, why shouldn't I priest? I hate the restrictions and loss of body growth, but I would be significantly more effective in combat if I did so. However, I could just transfer to PvE and have none of those downsides, and I would additionally get vyn skillgain and eventually the knowledge path bonus. This directly incentiveses me to both priest, and spend at least half my time on PvE. 

 

Conversely, removing those mechanics (non transferable faith and meditation) breeds the "I will just grind until I am ready" mindset that means you never actually move to a PvP server. It is a messy one to be sure. 

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Thought they removed depriesting on transfer? So you stay the same on both sides?

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20 hours ago, Wonka said:

Thought they removed depriesting on transfer? So you stay the same on both sides?

Faith doesn't transfer when crossing servers, so it is possible to be a priest on PvP and a non priest on PvE, and vice versa.

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Bump.

 

One huge benefit to PvE is the Path of Knowledge level 11 ability which grants 25% bonus skill gain. This is unattainable on the PvP servers, as there is a meditation level cap of 9. (I'm not sure how I left this out of the OP, updated it now)

 

As I suggested before, a skill gain bonus on Defiance would help counteract this. Perhaps linked to meditation skill, but irrespective of meditation path?

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