WittleBunnBun

Taken Horse, Reward for info or safe return

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It is immortal and I have no idea how it can be tolerated on a PVE server where stealing is forbidden. How it is different from lockpicking someone vehicles? Not to mention that deed it or lose it is not in the  official rule set. 

Edited by Platyna

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If the horses had been branded, a formal claim of ownership, they'd not have been able to be taken even off-deed.

 

There's a reason there's a limit to how many animals a deed (based on deed size) can have branded to that deed. 

It's to curb 'hoarding' of animals.

 

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1 hour ago, Tristanc said:

If the horses had been branded, a formal claim of ownership, they'd not have been able to be taken even off-deed.

 

There's a reason there's a limit to how many animals a deed (based on deed size) can have branded to that deed. 

It's to curb 'hoarding' of animals.

 

 

And why hoarding animals is bad? This is why people keep animals off deed - because Animal Ratio set to some really astronomical value - even most restrictive animal welfare acts to not get even close to 240 sq m per animal. I do struggle since my beginning with animal ratio and I don't "hoard" - I just breed all the colours of horses and hell horses in game, having 1-4 breeding pair of each because of RNG and inbreeding prevention, plus some bison, cows and sheep. It is not like I am greedy and I don't want to spend money on resize - I have nowhere to do that the deed to improve this situation. So I had to brand part of animals and move them off deed. I do play a rancher I am supposed to have a lot of animals. 

Edited by Platyna
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2 hours ago, Platyna said:

 

And why hoarding animals is bad? This is why people keep animals off deed - because Animal Ratio set to some really astronomical value - even most restrictive animal welfare acts to not get even close to 240 sq m per animal. I do struggle since my beginning with animal ratio and I don't "hoard" - I just breed all the colours of horses and hell horses in game, having 1-4 breeding pair of each because of RNG and inbreeding prevention, plus some bison, cows and sheep. It is not like I am greedy and I don't want to spend money on resize - I have nowhere to do that the deed to improve this situation. So I had to brand part of animals and move them off deed. I do play a rancher I am supposed to have a lot of animals. 

Because hoarding animals reduces the amount of free animals for others and/or increases server lag depending what remedy is used. That is the main reason tile ratio was implemented, so people would hoard insane amounts of animals in a small area (a pen for example).

 

There is nothing wrong with having off deed pens, but you need to accept the risks of doing so. There are mechanics to prevent people from taking your animals: branding. If you brand your animals, no one without permissions can lead them or tame them so they can't be stolen.

 

The problem here is threefold: 1) Usage of weak/easy to build but easy to bash pens. 2) Off-deed. 3) Lack of branding.

 

I get it, branding is tedious work and it may slip your mind, tall stone fences take time to build and deed has a ratio/costs money. I get that you just want to put some pole fences together and stash your animals without any effort and just use the honor system to lay claim to them. I get it. But that's just lazy and your stuff will be stolen. Wether people approve or not, thats the reality of the game and we need to understand it to not fall prey to it.

 

I personally see it as the equivalent of leaving a rare pickaxe inside an unlocked planted coffer on perimeter. There is no doubt that coffer belongs to someone. Hell, you could rename it with your name on it. But how many people will think anything of anyone 'stealing'' it, and any complaints on the forums will just get the person flamed. 

 

I think its a hopeless argument. There will be people on both sides of the isle and both arguments have merit. However the rules work in the "thief's" favor so we will never get anywhere.

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5 hours ago, Platyna said:

It is immortal and I have no idea how it can be tolerated on a PVE server where stealing is forbidden. How it is different from lockpicking someone vehicles? Not to mention that deed it or lose it is not in the  official rule set. 

 

How is this different from farming/harvesting a tree someone planted off-deed?

There are multiple systems to stop people from doing this. In this particular scenario none were used and the post is asking for the animals to be returned.

 

3 hours ago, Platyna said:

And why hoarding animals is bad? This is why people keep animals off deed - because Animal Ratio set to some really astronomical value - even most restrictive animal welfare acts to not get even close to 240 sq m per animal. I do struggle since my beginning with animal ratio and I don't "hoard" - I just breed all the colours of horses and hell horses in game, having 1-4 breeding pair of each because of RNG and inbreeding prevention, plus some bison, cows and sheep. It is not like I am greedy and I don't want to spend money on resize - I have nowhere to do that the deed to improve this situation. So I had to brand part of animals and move them off deed. I do play a rancher I am supposed to have a lot of animals. 

 

15 tiles per animal is astronomical? You did the math, if someone kept a horse without access to a water through and a lot of food in area that size, in most countries the horse would be taken away and the owner would face jail time or massive fines.

Hitching post is equipped with those - wasn't used.

Deed prevents that - wasn't used

Branding largely prevents that - wasn't used.

 

How do i know if a horse i found in the wild comes from a demolished off-deed pen or an upkeep-disbanded deed or someone simply releasing it when they moved to another server or from a maliciously bashed pen?

 

How do we know if whoever bashed the fence (if it was bashed, since it only takes a few days for low quality fence to decay in perimeter) took the animals?

What if the fence was actually bashed but no animals were taken by the person. If i find one of them on top of the mountain, do i have to get banned because i took it?

What if someone did bash the fence and took the horses, does the whole GM team have to drop everything now and investigate the whole incident?

 

We have the tools to prevent this from happening. They weren't used and OP admitted it.

I sincerely hope they find their way back to WhiteBunBun but please stop trying to change the game rules to fit your personal idea of how the game should work, while we have multiple systems for this exact scenario in place already.

 

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12 hours ago, Ekcin said:

About PvP,  in case of having the upper hand, it is of course easier to deal with such abusers. But it only works *if* you have the upper hand, and does in no way prevent overreactions, and feuds eventually driving out innocent bystanders. In every neighborhood conflict, there are always two sides, and staying righteous requires a lot of self restraint and patience. The solutions as in PvP encourage acting in a haste, overreacting, and acting injustly and cruelly oneself. Consequences may be gankfests and people driven out. The stronger is not always the better one.

What is the upper hand though? More skill? More people? More determination?

 

A while ago, @Alexgopenwas making an outpost in JKH on Epic. He was solo at that time. This is how I met Alex. I was sailing to JKH to disband a deed for Wimble that caused problems during convertion, and bumped into Alex. We talked for a bit, became friends and I moved to his outpost. We were 2 BLs in JKH. This means we had heavy penalties vs. anyone in JKH such as reduced fight skill and casting penalties (see Epic home server mechanics). 

 

Despite this I remember repelling several attacks (Chev was with us at one point) we did 2 raids and even broke into an undefended deed just the two of us.

 

The fallacy of "only if you have the upper hand." is a fallacy. Ask Mclovin about his Mount Mclovin deed defense in where he defended an open token vs anyone who dared come to drain it while alone on his Mclovin account. Or how Gladiator solo disbanded a deed that disbanded a kingdom. Or how any of the countless underdog kingdoms gave a bloody nose to groups such as EMR or Crusaders or Rome. It happens all the time. 

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2 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

Because hoarding animals reduces the amount of free animals for others and/or increases server lag depending what remedy is used. That is the main reason tile ratio was implemented, so people would hoard insane amounts of animals in a small area (a pen for example).

 

How having animals that almost all were born on my deed and selling them reduces the amount of free animals for others? Not to mention a lot of  breeders (including me) give away sp4 and other animals, so we are the only source of nice animals for new players, so it rather increases the availability,  also I did not say I think there shouldn't be AR at all, but current value is way too high. No idea about server lag - I do not notice any major lag in proximity of animals, either on other deeds or spawns. 

 

I think rules should be either uphold or updated. Deed it or lose it is not a rule in official rule set, stealing is not allowed. Breaking into enclosed structure is stealing. It fulfils any definition of stealing therefore if stealing is not allowed, there shouldn't be any risk associated with fenced off deed fields or pens at least for deed perimeters. There is a difference between someone who bought the land legally - and deeded over your fields or pens, and simple burglary. Not to mention how detrimental for the community it is. You will never trust your anyone after something like that. 

Edited by Platyna

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1 hour ago, Locath said:

15 tiles per animal is astronomical? You did the math, if someone kept a horse without access to a water through and a lot of food in area that size, in most countries the horse would be taken away and the owner would face jail time or massive fines.

 

Are you aware that 1 tile is a square of 4×4 m? My grandfather was a horse breeder, and Poland has one of most restrictive standards of animal welfare. For a horse optimal, good practice pens are: 9-12 m² and for a mare with a foal 12-16 m², that translates to 3 and 4 tiles. A lot of people postulated changes to AH, it wouldn't be bad if more animal welfare practices were implemented - the game could be educative for young players, or even older ones, for example decrease of bad traits probability while longeing the horses etc. But fixed ratio to 15 is painful, especially for ranchers in busy areas. I think it could at least decrease with increase of mayor's AH level. 

 

Edited by Platyna
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1 hour ago, Platyna said:

 

Are you aware that 1 tile is a square of 4×4 m? My grandfather was a horse breeder, and Poland has one of most restrictive standards of animal welfare. For a horse optimal, good practice pens are: 9-12 m² and for a mare with a foal 12-16 m², that translates to 3 and 4 tiles. A lot of people postulated changes to AH, it wouldn't be bad if more animal welfare practices were implemented - the game could be educative for young players, or even older ones, for example decrease of bad traits probability while longeing the horses etc. But fixed ratio to 15 is painful, especially for ranchers in busy areas. I think it could at least decrease with increase of mayor's AH level. 

 

 

Isn't 4X4 m the same as 16 m²?  (it's been a lifetime since I needed to know that)

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30 minutes ago, yasgur said:

Isn't 4X4 m the same as 16 m²?  (it's been a lifetime since I needed to know that)

 

It is, and 16×15 is 240, a big pen for one horse/sheep/cow/etc. if you ask me. 

Edited by Platyna

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1 hour ago, Platyna said:

How having animals that almost all were born on my deed and selling them reduces the amount of free animals for others? Not to mention a lot of  breeders (including me) give away sp4 and other animals, so we are the only source of nice animals for new players, so it rather increases the availability,  also I did not say I think there shouldn't be AR at all, but current value is way too high. No idea about server lag - I do not notice any major lag in proximity of animals, either on other deeds or spawns. 

I never said breeding does. I never said you are causing lag. In fact, I was not talking about you at all. I was talking about the reason why the ratio was implemented.

 

Just because you don't hoard 100 animals in a pen doesnt mean others dont. I could show you our off deed pen on Defiance where we had 115 horses at one point for breeding. This is why there are limits to the amount of animals that can inhabit a specific tile. 

1 hour ago, Platyna said:

I think rules should be either uphold or updated. Deed it or lose it is not a rule in official rule set, stealing is not allowed. Breaking into enclosed structure is stealing. It fulfils any definition of stealing therefore if stealing is not allowed, there shouldn't be any risk associated with fenced off deed fields or pens at least for deed perimeters. There is a difference between someone who bought the land legally - and deeded over your fields or pens, and simple burglary. Not to mention how detrimental for the community it is. You will never trust your anyone after something like that. 

Edited 53 minutes ago by Platyna

This is a matter of opinion and this is my whole point. Just because you or I agree on something doesn't mean everyone else will, or should.

 

lets say you run out of your deed, drive past mine and collect all the horses from the steppe next to mine then pen them in an off deed pen. Now you own 100 horses which you at some point maybe will breed. Now I get mad at you because you took all 100 horses and now I cant get 2 to put on my cart. I call you thief, or hoarder, or griefer over it. Is that fair? They were free horses. Is it fair you took 100 of them and wont give me two? Who is in the wrong?

 

That is the reason why we have mechanics in the game. A branded horse cannot be stolen. A deeded fence cannot be bashed. These things are intended to control the same things we are arguing over here. When you fail to use the game mechanics out of avarice, lazyness or simple convenience, you can't then blame the GMs or Devs and demand retribution for an action you brought up on yourself. You want a fenced area protected? Deed it. Don't want to pay the extra silver? Brand your horses. Problem solved.

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I asked a general question about your AR explanation, no idea why you keep referring to me, like I was the only player with a ranch in Wurm. Everything posted here is a matter of opinion, that's quite obvious I though? You also contradict yourself, you can show me a hoarder's pen, and the AR of 15 stays on, so how it prevents hoarding of animals? Not to mention that if someone  hoards wild animals it doesn't matter for them if they get sick and die and one would have to get another ones. Current AR value hurts the most people who breed high quality animals, such as 5 speed trait ones. Deeds are optional feature of the game. Off deed houses are protected, which is consistent with the current rule set, why not off deed animals and pens. What I am saying can be easily checked: breaking into secured structures and removing assets without the consent of the  owner is stealing, this is something you will find in any dictionary and stealing is forbidden in PVE. So either rule set should be updated or upheld. I do stand with this opinion. 

Edited by Platyna

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2 minutes ago, Platyna said:

I asked a general question about your AR explanation, no idea why you keep referring to me, like I was the only player with a ranch in Wurm. Everything posted here is a matter of opinion, what his the point of such obvious statement? You also contradict yourself, you can show me a hoarder's pen, and the AR of 15 stays on, so how it prevents hoarding of animals? Not to mention that if someone  hoards wild animals it doesn't matter for them if they get sick and die and one would have to get another ones. Current AR value hurts the most people who breed high quality animals, such as 5 speed trait ones. 

I agree that the AR needs to be upped a little. That goes without saying. Its restrictive with the current breeding mechanics.

 

3 minutes ago, Platyna said:

Deeds are optional feature of the game. Off deed houses are protected, which is consistent with the current rule set, why not off deed animals and pens. What I am saying can be easily checked: breaking into secured structures and removing assets without the consent of the  owner is stealing, this is something you will find in any dictionary and stealing is forbidden in PVE. So either rule set should be updated or upheld. I do stand with this opinion. 

What determines you own a fence? Its proximity to your deed or its presence in your perimeter? What about off perimeter fences? Can those be bashed? What if the fences are empty and are there just so no one takes the spot because its nice? What if my deed drops and you put a fence around my buildings so I dont remove my own items from my houses so you can take them? Should those fences be protected?

 

All this has been evaluated by the Devs in the past and people have always found ways to abuse it. At one point we had a rule where if you had a fenced area attached to a building the area was protected and bashing the fences was considered griefing. Guess what people did? They would make 1x1s attached to huge fenced in areas and claimed swaths of land that way. So it was discarded.

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17 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

I agree that the AR needs to be upped a little. That goes without saying. Its restrictive with the current breeding mechanics.

 

Rather lowered...

 

17 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

What determines you own a fence? Its proximity to your deed or its presence in your perimeter? What about off perimeter fences? Can those be bashed? What if the fences are empty and are there just so no one takes the spot because its nice? What if my deed drops and you put a fence around my buildings so I dont remove my own items from my houses so you can take them? Should those fences be protected?

 

 

Your locked gates, on each of them has owner tag, even off deed. 

 

17 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

All this has been evaluated by the Devs in the past and people have always found ways to abuse it. At one point we had a rule where if you had a fenced area attached to a building the area was protected and bashing the fences was considered griefing. Guess what people did? They would make 1x1s attached to huge fenced in areas and claimed swaths of land that way. So it was discarded.

 

Well if it was evaluated by the devs I would like to read it, please post the links. You can protect a huge area from being deeded using sheds or doughnut houses without fences, in fact in the example you gave - claim a huge area without deeding it, fences are completely redundant. This also does not prove that certain forms of stealing should be allowed and accepted, using this rationale house protection should be removed as well.

Edited by Platyna

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3 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

All this has been evaluated by the Devs in the past and people have always found ways to abuse it. At one point we had a rule where if you had a fenced area attached to a building the area was protected and bashing the fences was considered griefing. Guess what people did? They would make 1x1s attached to huge fenced in areas and claimed swaths of land that way. So it was discarded.

 

I think this is where the whole idea of balance comes in.  The Devs have to decide - not on a case by case basis but as a <shudder> policy - between different forms of griefing/abuse/exploitation and decide which really need to be addressed even if it means allowing another.  Breaking in to a person's building to take their stuff is clearly naughty.  Breaking in to a person's yard to take/scatter animals is more grey (in the perimeter, if you will).  Done with intent it is clearly a level of griefing, but a policy to prevent it (no bashing a fence associated with a building) is open to exploitation that per occurrence causes much more grief to many more players.  While I still think what seems to have occurred per the OP does constitute griefing, I also get why it is tolerated griefing.

 

I have no problem with the OP itself, after all bounty on return or at least info is part of the game, too.  If it turns up a player who thought "Ooh, pretty horses.  Gonna grab." then it is good to know that that is the kind of neighbour they be.  If it turns up someone who says "Sorry, I thought they were abandoned, and I have since fed them to my pet mountain lion." then that is useful, too.

 

 

Edited by TheTrickster

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20 hours ago, Platyna said:

Rather lowered...

Yes. My bad. You know what I meant! Lol.

 

20 hours ago, Platyna said:

Well if it was evaluated by the devs I would like to read it, please post the links. You can protect a huge area from being deeded using sheds or doughnut houses without fences, in fact in the example you gave - claim a huge area without deeding it, fences are completely redundant. This also does not prove that certain forms of stealing should be allowed and accepted, using this rationale house protection should be removed as well.

The search bar is there for you to use if you are so inclined. Regardless, you don't have to believe me. I was just sharing some experience I believe helps explain the problem. If you chose to ignore it, no harm will come to anyone.

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18 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

Yes. My bad. You know what I meant! Lol.

 

The search bar is there for you to use if you are so inclined. Regardless, you don't have to believe me. I was just sharing some experience I believe helps explain the problem. If you chose to ignore it, no harm will come to anyone.

 

Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non ei qui negat. I believe your search bar does not differ from mine, use it to provide evidence to back up your claims. 

Edited by Platyna

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1 minute ago, Platyna said:

 

Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non ei qui negat. I believe your search bar does not differ from mine, use it to provide evidence to back up your claims. 

How can I link to a rule that has since then been removed? Does the fact that it was removed means it never existed? Besides, what does it matter? The rule is not there now which is my point.

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6 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

Hey, what do you know? I was able to find it. Here ya go!

 

http://www.wurmonline.com/2014/05/07/enclosure-rule-no-longer-effective/

 

There is nothing about evaluation, and no information about "ways to abuse it". An ancient rule about fencing attached to a building to protect large areas from being legitimately obtained (by deeding) and stealing live stock after breaking into a closed pen are two completely different issues. 

Edited by Platyna

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6 hours ago, Platyna said:

 

There is nothing about evaluation, and no information about "ways to abuse it". An ancient rule about fencing attached to a building to protect large areas from being legitimately obtained (by deeding) and stealing live stock after breaking into a closed pen are two completely different issues. 

"Find me the rule."

Finds rule.

Moves goalpost. "Find me a rule that specifically talks about all these issues I am listing right here."

 

Lol okay.

Edited by Angelklaine
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13 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

"Find me the rule."

Finds rule.

Moves goalpost. "Find me a rule that specifically talks about all these issues I am listing right here."

 

Lol okay.

 

I asked you about the evaluation of a particular situation we are discussing here - stealing from closed pens, you brought me the rule that lifts the protection of all enclosures, especially these adjacent to houses, which was actually a good thing if the rule was exploited to not make deeds. 

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I've seen lots of small off deed pens sprinkled about here and there but what gets me 🤔 is when I see off deed pens with large herds of like 30 - 50 inside... Doesn't that block other spawns nearby with the latest spawn mechanics change? Every deed is a spawn blocker so people need to go off deed in search of farm animals to bring home, when those off deed sites are empty partly due to large off deed filled pens, and it's especially annoying when you see a handful of dead animals inside indicating that someone isn't even active enough to make use of the dead.

 

I wish non-aggressive mobs could spawn on deeds, would help to resolve some issues. It's not an issue on Xanadu but an issue on the new smaller servers for sure. But at this point, it seems like every change to solve one problem with spawn mechanics introduces another problem. But yeah if you're lucky enough to find or breed an appaloosa, silver, or ebony... you don't want to waste time getting them branded and secured on deed otherwise you are basically dropping x amount of silver on the ground... off deed.

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14 hours ago, Whane said:

I've seen lots of small off deed pens sprinkled about here and there but what gets me 🤔 is when I see off deed pens with large herds of like 30 - 50 inside... Doesn't that block other spawns nearby with the latest spawn mechanics change? Every deed is a spawn blocker so people need to go off deed in search of farm animals to bring home, when those off deed sites are empty partly due to large off deed filled pens, and it's especially annoying when you see a handful of dead animals inside indicating that someone isn't even active enough to make use of the dead.

 

I wish non-aggressive mobs could spawn on deeds, would help to resolve some issues. It's not an issue on Xanadu but an issue on the new smaller servers for sure. But at this point, it seems like every change to solve one problem with spawn mechanics introduces another problem. But yeah if you're lucky enough to find or breed an appaloosa, silver, or ebony... you don't want to waste time getting them branded and secured on deed otherwise you are basically dropping x amount of silver on the ground... off deed.

No to non aggro spawning on deed, I put walls up to keep seals out, don't let them spawn inside please. 

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Any word on the horse(s) that went missing? 

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